Classics and the Western Canon discussion

David wrote: "Cphe wrote: "I don't know if it is a work that will be applicable to me in Australia. . ."

For you and our several other members from other countries, I think much could be added to the discussion by the ability to compare and contrast the various aspects of Democracy in America to institutions of government from those other counties.

I agree with Rex that for DiA we would need approximately 15 weeks. The History Group here on GR planned 10 weeks, but had to add another 3 or 4 to finish the project. Elsewhere I found a schedule of 15 weeks plus one for wrap-up.

That is a long period to dedicate to a single book. For now my vote is still in favour of DiA (I will read it anyway), but I'm not sure it would suit this group (even if it gets most votes: Tocqueville has a lot to say about the tyranny of the majority).

For comparison, the audio book of Moby Dick I used was about 22 hours of spoken narration and we read it in 11 weeks (2 hours a week). Before we started I was concerned the 11 week schedule was overly ambitious. However, by the end of the book, I thought the rate was fine. For those that participated in the Moby Dick discussion or followed along, what do you think of the rate that we covered it?

Minus 2 hours of introductions and appendices, the audio book for DIA is 32 hours and the narrator reads at reasonable rate, about 150-160 words per minute. Based on that, 16 weeks at the rate of two hours of reading a week, seems about right and means we would be finished with DIA around June 25th.

I thought the readings for Moby Dick were a comfortable length.

Susan wrote: "I thought the readings for Moby Dick were a comfortable length."

I thought so, too. The pacing was very manageable. And David did an excellent job of guiding us through the behemoth.

I ditto David's, Susan's and Tamara's assessment re the readings for Moby Dick. I found the scheduled readings to be nicely paced.

I'm one who got behind. But I did finally finish the thing after trying multiple times in the past. Even participating in the read on the Morgan at Mystic had never been sufficient. Somehow, between the methodical pace here, which I looked at as I finished each section, and the wonderful oral readings online, I dragged across the finish line weeks later. Now, I actually feel as if this is one of those masterpieces I wouldn't mind reading again -- I would have a very different sense of where I would concentrate and where I might skim, even if it didn't end up that way at all once engaging with the text again.

Lily wrote: "I'm one who got behind. But I did finally finish the thing after trying multiple times in the past. Even participating in the read on the Morgan at Mystic had never been sufficient. Somehow, betwee..."

Cheers, Lily! Congratulations for finishing, and thanks to the group for encouraging us all to pursue great reading achievements.

The pace you used on Moby Dick was good for me. The 900+ pages of DIA gives me a fright, but if over 12-15 weeks it should be doable.

Cphe wrote: "Enjoyed the group read of Moby Dick and thought the pacing was spot on.

However, I have a sneaking suspicion the DinA might be a tad drier and be more difficult to pace.

Moby just sailed along."

I have not read Moby Dick but suppose, like any fiction, you have not asked yourself, 'Why I am reading this chapter?' With DiA I had this question often. This book is generally social-economic and political research but valued mostly for its political-philosophical component.

David wrote: "I expect DIA to go something like this:
(with apologies to Monty Python]"

If we do indeed go with DiA, thanks, David, for interjecting a bit of humor here.

There is only a short time left to vote in the poll. The poll will close on Feb 06, 2019 11:59PM PST (Pacific Standard Time, or UTC -8)

Remember to participate in the discussions no matter what book wins, but also remember that if you vote, we ask that you only vote for a book you are willing to participate in should it win.

I'm shifting my vote tonight from dear Mrs. Wharton to Fathers and Sons. Worthy though Tocqueville be, I am hesitant to want to offer so many hours over so many months to reading and discussing a 175 year-old treatise on Democracy in America viewed basically through the lens of one man and his elite comrades of the day.

I am going to abandon dear Mrs. Wharton and shift my vote tonight to Turgenev's Fathers and Sons. Valuable as the effort might be, I have real reservations about devoting hours weekly over several months to a 175-year old treatise on democracy, even based on the careful observations of the well-regarded Tocqueville and his elite, largely European colleagues of the day. But I have invested in Nolla and Schleifer -- if one is going to use this much of one's time, shouldn't one seek a worthy companion?

For a taste of the messages we may encounter, some of you might find this fun to watch (completely with apologies to Everyman -- I can hear him reminding us to read the original): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzr3A...
Warning: Some might consider this video to contain "spoilers." If such possibility concerns you, avoid it. For others, test it against Tocqueville's text itself.

Lily wrote: "I'm shifting my vote tonight from dear Mrs. Wharton to Fathers and Sons. Worthy though Tocqueville be, I am hesitant to want to offer so many hours over so many months to reading and d..."

I’m changing my vote to Fathers and Sons as well, because on second or third thought, the timing is not good for me to make a long reading commitment much as I’d like to read all of DiA at some point. Fathers and Sons is one of my favorite novels and would be great to read with this group, too.

@60Gary wrote: "...I agree with David that we should not try to be politics-free as politics have been an important aspect of American life..."

?And Thomas @41?

Patrice wrote: "where is the poll? i cant find it..."

Try one of these

https://www.goodreads.com/poll/list/1...

https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/1...

Who will be the winner? Its too close to call!



or

Just so it is out there... I've always meant to read DIA... but my attention span isn't great right now. Fiction... works for me...

I do not know whether DiA will win or not but it certainly sets the mood...

Like Donut, I see this group as the only place on GR where books like DiA or Ethics have a chance.

I would have preferred Spinoza, but I’ll be happy if DiA wins as well. I probably wouldn’t read the whole thing through, but I can see myself participating in some sections.

I’ll probably read F&S if it wins. It’s short enough and not too demanding.

(I would probably read *parts* of DiA as well if it were chosen.)

I changed my vote from Ethics to F&S and back again. I've decided to vote for what I truly want and let the chips fall where they may.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "I changed my vote from Ethics to F&S and back again. I've decided to vote for what I truly want and let the chips fall where they may."

I voted for Darwin at the time I posted the poll and stuck with it. I would encourage other members to stick with what they really want. The least it will do is more accurately reflect member interest in the book.

I will be abstaining from this vote. Either of the top contenders would be fine by me. If Tocqueville wins, I'll dig out my annotated editions and my personal notes, and I'm sure there will always be plenty to talk about. But I've also been wanting to revisit Turgenev, and there's something to be said for his comparative brevity.

Do Fathers and Sons as the interim selection.

We were thinking of doing all 27 volumes (7,892 pages) of Jules Romains Les Hommes de Bonne Volonté for the interim read to make DIA seem a more palatable and shorter read by comparison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...

ETA: Seriously, we were not really considering this. Unless Thomas or Tamara want to moderate it. . .

Only if afterwards we can hold a "Summarize Romains" competition.

David wrote: "We were thinking of doing all 27 volumes (7,892 pages) of Jules Romains Les Hommes de Bonne Volonté for the interim read to make DIA seem a more palatable and shorter read by comparison.
https://en..."

I've taken copious notes to prepare. But gosh, darn it! The dog ate them.

David, thank you for the link, very enlightening.

Democracy in action: Democracy in America won by one vote in both the weighted and the raw vote totals and will be our next major read with the first discussion starting March 6th.

W	R	Book
21	12	Democracy in America
20	11	Fathers and Sons
8	4	As I Lay Dying
6	4	Doctor Zhivago
3	2	Ethics
3	1	The Descent of Man
3	1	The Age of Innocence

W=Weighted Votes
R=Raw Votes

I am looking forward to getting through this one with you all.

So close! Don't you usually do both when it's this close?

Turgenev 2020!

Christopher wrote: "So close! Don't you usually do both when it's this close?

Turgenev 2020!"

Let's put F&S on the ballot for the next vote. If we still like it, we can vote it in. Or the random reading generator may come up with something we like even more.

Cphe wrote: "Oops, nearly posted DOA instead of DinA. . .
What date would it likely start on?"

I posted DNA..oops. See what you did Cphe. You wrote DinA and my mind took it right to DNA. :)

I posted DIA as an upcoming read on the Group Home page and you can find the start date there so anyone needing a quick reminder will not have to come back to this thread and search for it.

Here is the Discussion schedule we know for sure:
Feb 6 - Feb 12 Phantastes - Week 6
Feb 13 - Feb 19 Phantastes - Week 7 and book as a whole
Feb 20 - Feb 26 Interim Read Week 1
Feb 27 - Mar 5 Interim Read Week 2
Mar 6 - Mar 12 Democracy in America Week 1

The end date is speculative because we are still working out how to best divide up the book, but it looks like we will split it up over 16 weeks. This may change, but that would make the last week of DIA discussion Jun 19 - Jun 25

It is true that none of the moderators voted for DIA. Since the moderators are only a small minority in the total group membership, I wonder if Tocqueville would consider this an instance of tyranny of the majority? :)

Cphe wrote: "I've decided I'm going to give this a crack.

I just hope that those who did vote for DOA,DNA, DinA step up to the plate as well."

I have not voted for it and am not to re-read the book but suppose that the discussion will be interesting and revisiting some places in DiA will be fun.

I am personally interested in the opinions of those who engaged with the subject of the book (its evolved version).

I am excited that I found a paperback copy at my used book store!

Chris wrote: "I am excited that I found a paperback copy at my used book store!"

That's got to be cheaper than the investment in the two volume Nolla/Schleifer I made! (Which I am not sorry to have done for such a long read, not but what it would be nice to have a copy one could manhandle without necessarily considering its resultant physical appearance.) Who is the translator of the edition you found? If it is Henry Reeve, at least a couple of PDFs are available online, too, that can be downloaded:

From Penn State:
http://seas3.elte.hu/coursematerial/L...

I have been working off this one, which Dave pointed me to:
https://tantor-site-assets.s3.amazona...

I have it downloaded to the Kindle app on my PC. Not sure I know how to get it onto my Kindle itself, but I did Moby Dick mostly off my PC anyway. If I had stayed current with that discussion, it would have made moving quotations into a posting easy.

(These downloads, like Project Gutenberg that Tamara mentions @109, are on the Internet for the taking.)

I downloaded it for free from Project Gutenberg:

Vol. 1: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/815

Vol. 2: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/816

Tamara wrote: "I downloaded it for free from Project Gutenberg:

Vol. 1: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/815

Vol. 2: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/816"

It's going to be great fun keeping us all coordinated as to where we are in the chapters, since the numbering/naming system, at least of the sub-chapters, seems to vary considerably.

Patrice wrote: "i will be cutting my paperback in half to make it easier to handle."

LOL! I may be doing some sitting at a table when I use hard copy! (Oh, to possess Jefferson's reading desk/roundtable.) But maybe if I am just following with Audible, ... (I have had the Tantor edition, read by John Pruden, for several years now on my phone, but I have only listened to smatterings of it -- sometimes as a sleeping pill! It is the Henry Reeve translation, so I will be doing my favorite trick from Tolstoy reads -- listening to one translation and following the text in another.)

I didn't get to vote but I have started reading at Gutenberg. I'm on chapter II.

Lily wrote: "It's going to be great fun keeping us all coordinated as to where we are in the chapters, since the numbering/naming system, at least of the sub-chapters, seems to vary considerably..."

It may be a bit like herding cats :)

When necessary I use a pig board.🐈

I just created a DIA translation, edition, and other resources discussion topic so we can keep as much of that discussion with the book.

Thanks.

Lily wrote: "Chris wrote: "I am excited that I found a paperback copy at my used book store!"

That's got to be cheaper than the investment in the two volume Nolla/Schleifer I made! (Which I am not sorry to hav..."

Yes, my translation is by Henry Reeve. I have the Bantam Classic edition copyright 2000.

Mark wrote: "I didn't get to vote but I have started reading at Gutenberg. I'm on chapter II."

It's so often great when a discussion picks up participants who didn't vote or voted for a different selection!