Reading the 20th Century discussion

Having searched for references to Joyce Carol Oates in this group I can see that Susan is a fan, and it was Roman Clodia mentioning her elsewhere that inspired me to start this thread.

I have yet to read Joyce Carol Oates but a quick look at her authors makes me instantly intrigued. Some of those titles alone are wonderful (e.g. Big Mouth and Ugly Girl, Zombie, Foxfire: Confessions of a Girl Gang).

Where would you recommend the JCO novice start?

Blonde gets the highest average rating on the first page of her author profile.

She's certainly prolific. This is a list of just her novels...

My Life as a Rat / 2019
Hazards of Time Travel / 2018
A Book of American Martyrs / 2017
The Man Without A Shadow / 2016
Jack of Spades: A Tale of Suspense / 2015
The Sacrifice / 2015
Carthage / 2014
The Accursed / 2013
Daddy Love / 2013
Mudwoman / 2012
Little Bird of Heaven / 2009
My Sister, My Love: The Intimate Story of Skyler Rampike / 2008
The Gravedigger’s Daughter / 2007
Black Girl / White Girl / 2006
Blood Mask / 2006
Missing Mom / 2005
The Stolen Heart / 2005
The Falls / 2004
Take Me, Take Me With You / 2004
The Tattooed Girl / 2003
I’ll Take You There / 2002
Middle Age: A Romance / 2001
The Barrens / 2001
Blonde / 2000
Broke Heart Blues / 1999
Starr Bright Will Be With You Soon / 1999
My Heart Laid Bare / 1998
Man Crazy / 1997
Double Delight / 1997
We Were The Mulvaneys / 1996
You Can’t Catch Me / 1995
What I Lived For / 1994
Foxfire: Confessions of a Girl Gang / 1993
Snake Eyes / 1992
Nemesis / 1990
Because It Is Bitter, and Because It Is My Heart / 1990
Soul/Mate / 1989
American Appetites / 1989
Lives of the Twins / 1987
You Must Remember This / 1987
Marya: A Life / 1986
Solstice / 1985
Mysteries of Winterthurn / 1984
A Bloodsmoor Romance / 1982
Angel of Light / 1981
Bellefleur / 1980
Unholy Loves / 1979
Cybele / 1979
Son of the Morning / 1978
Childwold / 1976
The Assassins: A Book of Hours / 1975
Do With Me What You Will / 1973
Wonderland / 1971
them / 1969
Expensive People / 1968
A Garden of Earthly Delights / 1967
With Shuddering Fall / 1964

SOURCE: https://celestialtimepiece.com/2015/0...

I LOVE Joyce Carol Oates. Blonde is great. Middle Age: A Romance is a fave, but I have enjoyed all that I have read so far. Admittedly, my reading has been very sporadic, but happy to join in any suggested group reads.

I discovered JCO late and she's so prolific that I've still got masses to read. I haven't liked her recent novels as much (My Life as a Rat: A Novel, Hazards of Time Travel, A Book of American Martyrs), all of which have been patchy - she's getting pretty old now and I think, sadly, it's showing.

She's a no-holds-barred writer so readers who like their fiction cosy and comfortable should be warned...

A good place to start might be her short stories such as Night-Gaunts and Other Tales of Suspense to get a flavour of her writing - but I'd say JCO is a chameleon, so many different voices, different themes, different books.

Her most popular seem to be We Were the Mulvaneys which I haven't read yet, and Blonde which I liked a lot: a dazzling attempt to get inside the consciousness of Norma Jean.

I also loved Carthage, The Accursed and Rape - the latter is short, typical JCO with its subtitle 'A Love Story'. Her Daddy Love is shockingly visceral as it confronts the unspeakable - and I say that as someone not usually shocked or sentimental about children but even I found it a hard read.

There have been whispers of a Nobel prize for years now. I'd summarise her as bold, courageous, thoughtful, wildly intelligent and willing to confront issues that need to be spoken about but often aren't.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I'd say she's a precedent to writers like Lionel Shriver, Ottessa Moshfegh. Definitely in my favourites list.

Susan wrote: "happy to join in any suggested group reads.."

Goes without saying, me too!

I haven't yet read Joyce Carol Oats. I have a hardback copy of Mudwoman on my bookshelf TRL. The synopsis looks intriguing, so if a groupread starts I'll join in.

Thanks Roman Clodia - that's wonderful, and thanks to Susan too.

Greg also up for a buddy read, perhaps we should do it?

Any suggestions for one of her books you'd be happy to read (or perhaps read again)?

Oates writes contemporary fiction based on normal life situations and then she writes magical realism. My two favorites comes from her gothic saga novels: The Accursed and Bellefleur. I haven't read Blonde yet but I am really tempted. A Book of American Martyrs is sitting on the coffee table.

I have We Were the Mulvaneys and The Man Without a Shadow unread on my Kindle.

I could be persuaded to reread Carthage. I read Blonde fairly recently so it's still fresh in my mind, enough to join in discussions if others choose it.

Maybe we should have a mini poll if enough of us are keen to read something by JCO?

I have a few of Joyce Carol Oates books which i haven't read yet, so may be interested in a buddy read too

I have found a site with suggestions of her 'best' books:

https://www.readitforward.com/bookshe...

Let's see if it gives us any suggestions.

On my kindle, I have:

Blonde
Jack of Spades
The Accursed
Evil Eye
Carthage
Black Dahlia and White Rose
A Fair Maiden
Middle Age

According to that link of Susan's...


In a 2003 interview with the Washington Post, Oates was asked which of her books she’d prefer a reader to turn to first, and which she thinks she’ll be most remembered for. “It's a toss-up between Blonde and Them for both questions,” she responded.

Blonde is 752 pages so perhaps not the ideal entry point, on the other hand Them is also a hefty 576 pages. Not sure where that leaves us? Perhaps, as Roman Clodia suggests, a poll is a good idea? Or maybe a collection of her short stories might be a good entry point?.....

Roman Clodia wrote: "A good place to start might be her short stories such as Night-Gaunts and Other Tales of Suspense to get a flavour of her writing - but I'd say JCO is a chameleon, so many different voices, different themes, different books..."

Then again my library service seems to have lots of copies of The Man Without a Shadow and it's a more manageable 272 pages so, based on purely selfish criteria, I'd say let's read....

The Man Without a Shadow (2016)

In 1965, neuroscientist Margot Sharpe meets Elihu Hoopes: the “man without a shadow,” who will be known, in time, as the most-studied and most famous amnesiac in history. A vicious infection has clouded anything beyond the last seventy seconds just beyond the fog of memory.

Over the course of thirty years, the two embark on mirrored journeys of self-discovery: Margot, enthralled by her charming, mysterious, and deeply lonely patient, as well as her officious supervisor, attempts to unlock Eli’s shuttered memories of a childhood trauma without losing her own sense of self in the process. Made vivid by Oates’ usual eye for detail, and searing insight into the human psyche, The Man Without a Shadow is eerie, ambitious, and structurally complex, unique among her novels for its intimate portrayal of a forbidden relationship that can never be publicly revealed.

Then again Roman Clodia says I haven't liked her recent novels as much and The Man Without a Shadow was published in 2016.

Hmmmm

Mind you, any book called....


High Crime Area: Tales of Darkness and Dread (2014)

....has got to be worth reading?

She does the best titles

In these biting and beautiful stories, Oates confronts, one by one, the demons within us. Sometimes it’s the human who wins, and sometimes it’s the demon.

I have always thought that Blonde and We Were the Mulvaneys were her most popular titles.

The Man Without a Shadow has an average rating of 3.2 on Amazon, with 40% of ratings 1 star, so that doesn't look the best starting point...

I am not a huge fan of short stories, but High Crime Area: Tales of Darkness and Dread has better reviews.

Susan wrote: "I have always thought that Blonde and We Were the Mulvaneys were her most popular titles."

Me too. Mulvaneys is a more manageable 450 pages. I don't think JCO is for everyone, all her novels have a high proportion of negative reviews - but is that often the case with 'challenging' writers who break with genre conventions?

Maybe so, RC. I do agree that her later novels are less successful than JCO at her peak. If someone is trying her for the first time, you want to start with something really good though, I would think.

I am not too bothered about a buddy read. She is an author I do keep coming back to, but, if there is no obvious choice, it makes sense for people to read whatever is easy for them to get hold of.

I think Blonde was the first of her books that I read.

We Were the Mulvaneys works for me - £3.99 on kindle in the UK

Interestingly Blonde on Audible is only 8 hours and 20 minutes which seems quite short for a 700 + page book. I've got loads of Audible credits so would also be happy to do Blonde

Actually happy to read anything by her - so just decide and I'll just join in

I will see what is decided on. She has written a LOT of books, which makes it harder to find one everyone can agree on. Also, as there are so many different styles, and genres, there is no obvious starting point.

How about Blonde then for a buddy read starting in mid-May 2019?


Susan and Roman Clodia have both read it so can join in with little effort. It is widely acclaimed and easy to source cheap copies.

Anyone else up for that? Kathy? Greg? Karen?

This review is especially enticing...
https://www.fantasticfiction.com/o/jo...

JCO discusses Blonde in this interview, as well as other work and why she is so divisive...
https://www.theguardian.com/books/200...

Yes, I agree that there's no clear and definitive starting point with JCO: I found this list which seems to show Blonde and Mulvaneys as the top two by readers' choice: www.goodreads.com/list/show/25466.Bes...

Did you see the Audible version of Blonde is abridged, Nigeyb?

Just thinking aloud here but if we don't have a clear 'winner' we all want to read, how about having a designated month where we each read whichever JCO we fancy and share thoughts and reactions to her writing style, treatment of themes etc. so that we can discuss her as an author rather than in terms of specific plot points? Might that work? A kind of Author of the Month spot.

That's a good idea, RC. I'm fine with that. I do have Blonde on my kindle, but I don't think it is available on kindle now.

Splendid idea Roman Clodia💡

Yes Susan, I concluded the Audible version must be abridged. Why do they do that?

That Guardian article above (#21) is excellent and offers some interesting things we might want to talk about (class, vulnerability, victimhood, femininity, melodrama) in relation to our chosen books.

I have to say, it's made me feel like revisiting Blonde even though I just read it in May 2017! I commented in my review on the presence of Norma Jeane's body, a connection, Nigeyb, to our previous conversation about Moshfegh's bodily interests.

I think Mulvaneys will be my first choice and then I'll see.

I would join in with a buddy read of Blonde.

When are we aiming to do this? I have a couple of hers that I have meant to read for a while.

March is a bit full for me but anytime after that is fine.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I have We Were the Mulvaneys and The Man Without a Shadow unread on my Kindle.

I could be persuaded to reread Carthage. I read Blonde fairly recent..."

I had to quit We Were the Mulvaneys. Just think JCO isn't really for me.

I read We Were the Mulvaneys about 15 years ago and also watched the U.S. Lifetime Channel TV movie sometime afterwards. I remember both as being OK but not great, but I failed to mark it as read when I joined Goodreads in 2014.
EDIT: I just checked my calendars and I read it in September 2009 and rated it 4.2 out of 5, better than I remembered.
I read it because I had seen an article that said that Philip Roth, Don DeLillo and Joyce Carol Oates were the American authors given the most consideration for ever receiving a Nobel Prize. I had read the other 2 but not Oates, so I remedied that. Bob Dylan was not mentioned.
We Were the Mulvaney has almost 10 times the number of Goodreads ratings as the next most popular Oates book.

Bob Dylan was the Dark Horse there, Brian :)

I have a few I haven't read, languishing on my kindle, and shelves. I don't have We Were the Mulvaneys, but agree it is a popular choice.

Susan wrote: "I don't have We Were the Mulvaneys, but agree it is a popular choice."


Shall we do that then?

Or do we got with Roman Clodia's suggestion of everyone reads what they want and we have a more general JCO discussion on this very thread?

Timing-wise we have quite a lot going on in March and April (though could still add yet more as not every member reads every book) or leave it until May when there is less planned....

April 2019

Jambusters: The Women's Institute at War 1939-1945 by Julie Summers (Group read - WW2)
Catch 22 by Joseph Heller (Mod Read)
Mid-April - The Tortoise and the Hare by Elizabeth Jenkins (Buddy read)
Mid-April - Lolly Willowes by Sylvia Townsend Warner (Buddy Read)
Mid April - The Enchanted April by Elizabeth von Arnim (Buddy read led by Suki and Lady Clementina)

May 2019

Mid-May - The Mitford Girls: The Biography of an Extraordinary by Mary S. Lovell (Buddy read led by Lady Clementina)

June 2019

Mid-June - Stalingrad by Vasily Grossman (Buddy read)

I think May. RC's suggestion is a good one, although there is a lot to be said for reading the same book.

How about we do a buddy read of We Were the Mulvaneys in mid-May 2019?


Anyone who doesn't fancy that particular book but wants to join in can read a Joyce Carol Oates book of their choice.

So the discussion would be both about We Were the Mulvaneys and also, more generally, the work of Joyce Carol Oates.

How does that grab you?

We Were the Mulvaneys....
Elegiac and urgent in tone, Oates's wrenching 26th novel (after Zombie) is a profound and darkly realistic chronicle of one family's hubristic heyday and its fall from grace. The wealthy, socially elite Mulvaneys live on historic High Point Farm, near the small upstate town of Mt. Ephraim, N.Y. Before the act of violence that forever destroys it, an idyllic incandescence bathes life on the farm.

https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-...

I would probably join We Were the Mulvaneys in May, my library has it. The only JCO I appear to own is The Gravedigger's Daughter so if I like Mulvaneys I may try to fit that in too.

I haven't read anything by JCO in the last 10 years or so, but read a few longer ago, in pre-GR days - I remember loving The Falls and I'll Take You There but not being so keen on some of her other work, including We Were the Mulvaneys, and Rape.

I don't really want to reread Mulvaneys but I see I have Solstice, which I don't think I've read, so I could possibly read that or another one.

Yes, the Mulvaneys works for me. Added :)

Mulvaneys works for me too - thanks for organising Nigeyb :)

Thanks Susan and thanks Roman Clodia


I'll let the discussion run for a bit before conclusively confirming it. I'm conscious that our US-based members will most likely still be enjoying their slumber.

Judy wrote: "I don't really want to reread Mulvaneys but I see I have Solstice, which I don't think I've read, so I could possibly read that or another one."

Solstice looks like another goodie Judy

Originally published in 1985, Solstice is the gripping story of Monica Jensen and Sheila Trask, two young women who are complete opposites yet irresistibly attracted to each other. Blonde, shy, recently divorced Monica is a school teacher; dark, nocturnal, sophisticated Sheila is a painter of stature, driven by the needs of her art. Over the months, their friendship deepens, first to love and then to a near-fatal obsession.

I'll pass on the Mulvaneys.

I'll join in.

Jan, you can read a Joyce Carol Oates book of your choice if you want, as the discussion will also be about her work more generally

Yes, I think it is a great idea to have a proposed title and also widen the scope to a book of your choice, if you don't fancy the suggested read.

We Were the Mulvaneys currently £1.99 on kindle.

Thanks Susan - that's a great price. I'm still mulling whether to read this title or read something else and offer a non-We Were the Mulvaneys perspective on our forthcoming discussion.

High Crime Area: Tales of Darkness and Dread (2014) is calling to me. The title alone makes me suggest it could be a great entry point into the world of Joyce Carol Oates

It dropped in price, so I thought I would mention it - I have downloaded it in readiness.

Greg wrote: "I haven't yet read Joyce Carol Oats. I have a hardback copy of Mudwoman on my bookshelf TRL. The synopsis looks intriguing, so if a groupread starts I'll join in."

Ive also never read anything by Joyce Carol Oats. I have Blonde on my kindle though. Would try to join in if there was a group read of it.