Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club discussion
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Indemnity Only by Sara Paretsky - VBC March 2019
I'm going to have to re-read this as it has been a really long time since I've read it. A really long time!
First V.I. for me - a quick fun read 😊
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This was the first read for me, Karen! I have read most of Sara's books, except for the earliest half-dozen of the V.I. series. Now I am psyched to catch up on the rest!
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My first read as well (even though I have read most of the rest of the series) and I thought it was extremely well done for a first novel.
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John wrote: "Lenore, I deeply apologize; I accidentally deleted your post (fumble fingers this morning), please re-post if you can. I'm sorry!"Apology accepted! I'm pretty amused, as I was wondering whether it was worth posting to begin with! What I said was that I was admiring of the way V.I. firmly deflected Yardley Masters's attempt to exert power by addressing her by her first name. Her card gives only her initials, and when he asks what V stands for, she says, repressively, "my first name." Upon further reflection, I think it was a really Russellian maneuver.
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Apology accepted! I'm pretty amused, as I was wonder..."
Actually, I must have read it almost as soon as you posted it, Lenore, because I never knew it had disappeared (and thought it was a good observation).
I was really enjoying reading this until I realized that this is a bit of a historical mystery and that I know what she is talking about as I lived in this historical time. The references that she makes including "Let your fingers do the walking", winding your watch, hiring a Kelly girl and her Olivetti were all normal for the time but now would require some explanation as to what they mean. I am going to continue to enjoy the book and laugh when I think my adult children would need an explanation as to the reference.
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It is a shock when you see your life suddenly turn into history. I recently saw a little video on how the production designers on "Endeavour" keep the late 60's setting authentic to the period, and I was thinking "What 'period'?," that's my youth there!
Merrily wrote: "Jeanne wrote: "I was really enjoying reading this until I realized that this is a bit of a historical mystery and that I know what she is talking about as I lived in this historical time. The refer..."I had the same feeling watching "The Americans." I constantly wondered where the set designers found all those 1980s cars!
Heck, Treme was only set about 8 years back, and that was weird!I've read most of these over the years but fun to have an excuse to revisit. I'd always heard that VI Warshawski was really hardboiled and unfeminine, but I don't think she is compared to detectives like Kinsey Millhone.
Also, my pet peeve with this series has always been her last name. There is no sh in Polish! If you want an sh sound, it's spelled sz. Warsaw is pronounced var-sha-va in Polish, but spelled Warszawa. I know crazy things happened at Ellis Island and it's not out of the question that someone Polish would end up with that name, but it's still annoying.
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John wrote: "Emily, I can understand this being a pet peeve but I suspect (know, really) that a lot of Anglicizing went with immigrant names. I never even questioned V.I.’s last name because you will find Warsh..."In fact, few of these misspellings occurred at Ellis Island because the government officials took the spellings from the ship manifests. However, many immigrants, once arrived, changed the spelling of their names to match American pronunciations -- because you know that 99% of non-Polish origin Americans were going to mispronounce the name as originally spelled. My own father, upon being naturalized as an American citizen, changed his name from Kupferschmidt to Cooper because he just did not want to spend the rest of his life spelling his name for someone every single day.
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I actually was kind of grinding my teeth over how completely misogynistic everyone seems to be in this book...until I remembered when the book was written. I think this is one of the biggest differences between historical fiction and fiction of the time. You get more of the warts with fiction of the time.
So I'm still grinding my teeth a bit, but now maybe more on the character's (and author's) behalf because having to interact with men like every day sounds seriously terrible/frustrating.
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What You Said, John.
As to "Americanizing" foreign names, when I was in Rhode Island I heard a story about a guy whose last name was the same as one of the big local department stores. Supposedly when his grandfather was at the courthouse about to be sworn in as a citizen, the judge took a look at his last name and said "That will never do, no one will be able to pronounce this, pick another one." The man looked out the window, saw the department store sign, and said "Shepherd." The local joke was "Good thing he didn't see the Outlet sign," that being the OTHER big department store.
Erin wrote: "Jeanne wrote: "I was really enjoying reading this until I realized that this is a bit of a historical mystery and that I know what she is talking about as I lived in this historical time. The refer..."Growing up in the books time period makes and you being so frustrated with how completely misogynistic makes me realize how much we have done to make things better. Still not good but better. When I was growing up, it was made clear to girls (fortunately not by my parents) were not supposed to be taller, smarter, or stronger than boys. Women were not smart enough to take the new computer programming classes. Do you really want to be the only girl (not a woman) in class? Even if you got the degree, who would hire a woman. This is in what is now the Silicon Valley. Can you imagine what it was like in a less enlightened location?
Jeanne wrote: "Growing up in the books time period ... makes me realize how much we have done to make things better...."Oh, yes. I had a good friend in high school who was told by her parents in her senior year that she was not going to college because the money had to be saved to send her brothers to college! Not surprisingly, this led to estrangement from her family and a long period of self-destructive behavior with drugs and other bad choices. The good news is a happy ending -- she now has a Ph.D. from Cambridge and is a successful academic -- but that sort of thing was distressingly common in the 60s.
I'm still not very far in the book -- not much reading time -- but we have learned that Vic went to law school and practiced law for awhile. Do we ever learn -- in this book or later ones -- what led to her career change?
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Jeanne, sadly, all true. At one point in my life I wanted to be a lawyer, and was told not to bother as even if I did become one, I'd just be sent into some back room to do research in support of the "real" lawyers (men). Gives me even greater respect for women like Ruth Bader Ginsburg who Persisted anyway!
Merrily wrote: "...At one point in my life I wanted to be a lawyer, and was told not to bother..."It all depends on the support and encouragement you get. My father, a lawyer who very much wanted me to be one too, told me that it was a great profession for women because it could be done indoors and (mostly) sitting down and involved no heavy lifting. (Dad got his wish.)
John wrote: "Hi, Lenore! Yes, we learn in this book about V.I.’s change of profession."Finally got there!
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It all depends on the support and encouragement you get. My father, a lawyer who very much wanted..."
You're right, Lenore, so much depends on who you get advice from, when!
Jeanne wrote: "I was really enjoying reading this until I realized that this is a bit of a historical mystery and that I know what she is talking about as I lived in this historical time. The references that she ..."The campus feminists took me back to my own college days. It's also refreshing my memory of life before cell phones.
I had just finished reading this, having read a couple out of order and deciding to go through the whole series. Retirement means reading books I want to read rather than grading papers and planning lessons.
One of the charms of this book is that, like the Kinsey Milhone stories of the late (and seriously missed) Sue Grafton, we are back in the technology (and thus the mindset) of the 80s. (As someone remarked upthread, a lot of the references, like Kelly Girls and letting one's fingers do the walking, are probably incomprehensible to younger readers.) I have just reached the point in the book where Jill finds an important document. She reads it to Vic over the phone, but it would be really helpful if Vic had it in hand. In 2019, Jill would snap a photo with her smartphone and text it to Vic, but, as this is the 80s, we just have to hope that Jill can keep it safe until the two can get together.
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A question I might pose for non-Chicagoans: how does the author’s free use of Chicago directions, streets, and landmarks affect your reading of the story? Positive, negative, neutral? Just curious.
I love it! I have visited Chicago, but I don't know it well. It's like having a tour of the city . . . and it makes me want to go back.
John wrote: "Our 10 spoiler-free days are up so starting tomorrow (Monday) feel free to post away!A question I might pose for non-Chicagoans: how does the author’s free use of Chicago directions, streets, and..."
I have only been to Chicago once, and so don't recognize the streets at all. But in books set where I have lived, I love that sort of description (and wince, or even scream out loud, when an out-of-town author gets it wrong). I find I don't mind the unfamiliarity, and the detail of the description somehow makes it more as though I am riding along in the car with Vic.
If a book with that sort of description sticks with me, and I subsequently visit the city, I find myself looking for the routes the characters took. I've done that several times.
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A question I might pose for non-Chicagoans: how does the author’s free use of Chicago directions,..."
One of the things I like most about Michael Connelly's books is the wonderful sense of place he creates - Los Angeles and its surroundings are definitely another character in the books. I too have gone to various spots there and thought of Harry Bosch!
I have relatives in Chicago and I know they like this series in part because of all the Chicago references. This book actually mentioned the street they live on in passing, but it sounded very different from what I've seen when I've been there so I don't know if it's a different part of the street or what it was like in the 70s.Overall, I think it's fun to be able to visualize where the characters are and I appreciate authors who do their research (same thing with historical facts brought in), though it can definitely be a problem in the hands of a less-than-expert writer. ("And then we turned onto Pine St., which runs parallel to Oak and perpendicular to Willow, and serves as a business district for ... " while the villains are speeding away.)
I just finished the book. I'm definitely younger (I wasn't born yet when this was originally published) and I wasn't sure I was even going to be able to read it, I got so fed up with the misogyny and sexism. (I've also been sick for the past few days, which also puts me in a mood of not wanting to put up with anything.) It just made me mad that anyone had to deal with that, ever. But I'm glad I pushed through and finished the book. I've read enough other books with a female detective character that it didn't seem novel to me, but I understand how it was when it was published. I have never been to Chicago, so I couldn't picture that at all. The part that struck me about the technology of the age - she needed photographs for her canvas of the bars and she was trying to figure out how to get them - now she could just Google the names and have the photos instantly. She also had to stop everywhere and use pay phones!
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John wrote: "Ellen, technology-wise it has been interesting to follow V.I.’s journey through the years as she has adapted to the amazing tech changes which have certainly had a major effect on her line of work...."I have the interesting experience of being born early enough (born in the 80s) to remember a time before cell phones and the internet, yet be young enough that they seem like a normal part of life. My family got our first PC computer (with dial-up internet) when I was in eighth grade, I didn't have my own cell phone until college, and I didn't have a smartphone until I was almost married. I look at my kids playing with electronics and I'm amazed. I played around with cassette tape recorders and my kid has a touch-screen iPod.
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That is absolutely one of my favorite part of reading about other places and then getting to go there! I totally remember doing this with the Kate Martinelli series every time I visit San Francisco (which is kind of often, since I only live 20 miles away, LOL).
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I'm curious how Paretsky handles this, John, since I think she has the same "problem" that Sue Grafton must have where not that much time has changed in her fictional world, but major changes have happened in reality. I remember Grafton saying at a Bouchercon interview a few years ago that recent books felt like writing historical fiction because she had to remember back to the available tech of the time, LOL.
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I wish I'd signed on for that aging at 2/3 time ;-)BTW, I was in junior high when we got a phone, a party line. In high school, I complained of rude noises on the line while helping a friend with algebra, and Dad declared we needed a private line because "the kids are older." I taught my Language Arts students to use computers in the '80s, teachers and librarians pioneered email and internet use, and by the time I retired, my students were helping ME with tech questions. So many changes; I'm far from an "early adopter," but eventual upgrades prove "resistance is futile." It's nice to look back to how we accomplished goal with less tech.
Oh, and my high school counselors really did suggest limited careers: teacher, nurse, secretary. Want ads WERE divided male/female.We have come a long way . . . more to go.
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BTW, I was in junior high when we got a phone, a party line. In high school, I complained of rude noises on the line while helping a friend with ..."
Mary, I had all of those experiences except in the library. We had one of the first Apple computers in my office (the once called the Lisa), and at one point I went around to faculty offices with the head of computing trying to convince faculty that they might have a use for a desktop computer. How time does fly. Now one's car is a rolling computer!
The edition I read was the reprint on the 30th anniversary of V.I. first appearing and featured an introduction by Sara Paretsky. She discusses the initial appearance of V.I. inside her brain and how she came to be. She writes: If I were creating V. I. with the greater confidence I have now, she wouldn't be slotted so completely into the noir detective's profile. I wouldn't have made her an orphan, for instance—although she would still drink the Black Label whiskey I enjoy. I remember loving the book when I first read it, which had to have been not long after it came out and I read every one of her books for many years. I have, in the last 5 or more years, lost some interest in V.I. and I think it is because I have left the noir detective behind. That specific genre doesn't hold my interest any more the way it used to. I wonder, if Paretsky was starting out now, what kind of a character would V.I be?
Ellen wrote: "I just finished the book. I'm definitely younger (I wasn't born yet when this was originally published) and I wasn't sure I was even going to be able to read it, I got so fed up with the misogyny a..."You don't have to have grown up and worked in the 80's to know that misogyny and sexism still exist and in a big way. Last year was the birth of the "Me Too" movement and all it entails and it isn't over yet. And we can't forget the embarassment of the comments and actions of the current occupant of the Whitehouse to remind us how prevalent the problems still are. I just finished reading "Becoming" and thought it was interesting to contrast the descriptions of real Chicago with fictional Chicago. They are very similar.
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You know, I hadn't really made the noir connection to V.I., but now you mention it she does rather fit that mold. However, even in this first book she seems to have way more social connections than your average noir P.I. She's much more ingrained in her location and the neighborhoods she grew up in than you usually see with disillusioned detectives.
And omg, I just noticed the similarity there in here name (V.I? P.I.?). do you think that was deliberate??
Erin wrote: "KarenB wrote: "I have, in the last 5 or more years, lost some interest in V.I. and I think it is because I have left the noir detective behind. That specific genre doesn't hold my interest any more..."You know, I hadn't thought of V.I. as noir either. Yes, she has the traditional small office in a run-down building across from a flashing neon sign, and she does like whiskey. And she gets beat up some. But hey, I like the odd bourbon myself. And although neither of her parents is still living, she has a close relationship with Lotty, a definite surrogate mother type, is otherwise tied to her community (even on relatively good terms with her late father's fellow officers), and relatively normal relationships with men.
On the "how times have changed in not that much time" note, I was reading the second book, and VI thinks someone is rude because they light up a cigarette without asking if she wants one. Now it would be lighting up without asking if it was ok!
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Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Total Recall (other topics)Little Fires Everywhere (other topics)
For a quick synopsis I am going to appropriate the back cover précis: "Meeting an anonymous client late on a sizzling summer night is asking for trouble. But trouble is Chicago private eye V.I. Warshawski's specialty. Her client says he's the prominent banker John Thayer. Turns out he's not. He says his son's girlfriend, Anita Hill, is missing. Turns out that's not her real name. V.I.'s search turns up someone soon enough-the real John Thayer's son, and he's dead. Who's V.I.'s client? Why has she been set up and sent out on a wild goose chase? By the time she's got it figured, things are hotter-and deadlier-than Chicago in July. V.I.'s in a desperate race against time. At stake: a young woman's life."
If you have not read any of Sara's V.I. books I hope you find this to be a wonderful introduction, and for those of you who have enjoyed the series over the years I hope this is a fun re-read.
As usual, please refrain from spoilerish comments for the first ten days of the month, and after that all is fair game. Enjoy!