Support for Indie Authors discussion

Does anyone have any good tips for writing convincing dialogue? My process is generally the following, but interested in what others do.

1) plan out what the dialogue and actions will convey (actual content of what they’re saying and what’s hidden between the lines)
2) write dialogue with no speech tags or actions (so just the words said)
3) edit
4) add in speech tags
5) add in actions which convey unsaid stuff
6) Edit Edit Edit

Anyone got another method in place?

Thanks!

Not sure if this will be helpful as my writing method is... pure improvisation, especially in the first draft. I edit later when I see (or am shown) something is not working but when it comes to the first draft, I can't say I have any strategy other than "see where my ideas take me".

I don't really have any tips, as such, but I think it can be helpful to build dialogue up in layers the way you describe - especially if it's a complicated conversation with a lot of things to cover. Worrying about dialogue beats and speech tags while you're trying to write something like that can get distracting and slow things down for sure!

That being said, I think generally when I'm writing dialogue I do add in a lot of the beats and speech tags, other bits of description etc as I'm writing it. I follow bullet points or notes I've written down about the conversation if it is a more complex one. I then work on it again when I go through each of my edits, but I don't have a particular system, and some bits of dialogue end up needing more work than others. (Some end up being removed completely, or mostly re-written!) I guess it's just a case of whatever works best for you :)

Know the characters first. Or at least know them well enough to feel their way of speaking, their emotional state, and their ability to understand/misinterpret what other characters are saying.

If you can role play each character enough to echo their conversation--even if you don't yet know their whole backstory or all their motivations--then the conversation will flow naturally.

I put speech tags in and some actions and internal thoughts as I go, then edit them out, or add more in, as I go. It's tricky to get that part correct because sometimes the most powerful writing leaves out a lot of that, trusting the reader to fill in the gaps. To make that work, though, the conversations have to be written well and what tags/actions/internal stuff there is needs to not get in the way.

I suppose what I'm saying is that the bulk of the conversation's emotion should be delivered in the dialog itself. The tags and all the rest are supporting elements put in for clarity. They shouldn't be conveying most of the meaning.

... But the most important thing in the first draft is to just get it all down on paper. You can edit/re-write later.

I once completed the first draft of a novel and when I went back on my first re-read, I was appalled at how one of the MCs sounded nothing like herself! Her starting character was a the polar opposite of where she ended. It wasn't character development, it was just me as the author getting to know her better as the story went on. I had to completely re-write the first half of that character.

I don't have a multi-step process for dialogue. I write it out as I hear it in my head, then during the editing process I think about every quote and whether it a) sounds like something someone would actually say and b) sounds like something this character in particular would say. If it comes across as stilted or unnatural in any way, I fix it.

In other words, if it sounds like writing, it's not good dialogue.

Late in the writing process, I'll even read most of the dialogue out loud and see if it flows right or not.

I recommend reading the lines out loud as you want them spoken. Literally, act them out. Even if you aren't an actor, you'll know what sounds "fake." If you have friends who will help, even better. This can lead to instant rewrites with an authentic feel. Bad dialogue will tank a novel quickly.

Phillip. Good comments.

There is usually a subtext with dialogue...something that is implied but not said. Make sure it is clear enough so the reader 'gets' what isn't being said. Other than that, tags should be said/asked with few adverbs. Let the words give the tone. Dwayne does an excellent job at dialogue, You might want to read one of his short stories. The advice to read it out loud is great. You should read your whole manuscript aloud to get a feel for the timing and flow.

I like Micah's advice. Know your characters, give them a topic, and just let them go at it. Often the story ends up nowhere near where I wanted it to go, but that's OK if the encounter is interesting.

I recently wrote a bit where I wanted the evil priest of the Cannibal God to pitch up and remind the sick knight of the bargain they'd struck over the fate of his first-born son. I had the knight's wife come out as a quick prequel to the main encounter. However, I'd written her as a pretty strong character and just following the natural dialogue she ended up tossing the priest off the land post haste and derailing my story. It was touch and go as to whether the bad guy kept his head, tbh.

I'm kind of OCD about letting characters do what they want, and decided to leave it as it was because it was such a sharp little encounter. The evil priest had to wait another six years before getting his opportunity. Sorry, chum, hard cheese.

The key thing is to get the dialogue down on paper and doing it quickly - as it is spoken - is good.

Then mark up the actual speech in a colour so that it stands out.

Then add the speech marks.

Then check the punctuation (stops and commas concerning the speech itself are placed INSIDE the speech marks).

Then change the colour to the same as the rest of the document.

There's advice on formatting in The Oxford Style Manual (NOSM).

Something that can be helpful for the nonverbal bits of communication is an emotion thesaurus - I'm using one a lot at the moment as I have a lot of conversations where characters are either shocked, anxious or scared, so there is a danger that I overuse the same actions like "she stared at him", "her pulse raced" etc and it becomes repetitive. Now I'm in the editing stages I'm using the emotion thesaurus to get some fresh ideas on actions and nonverbal cues for emotions.

I agree with many comments above in that it helps to truly know your characters. If you can see them in your mind, the way they act, etc, the speech should follow.
I also agree that you should just focus on getting it all down on paper (or screen) rather than editing as you go, as you'll find yourself overthinking things.
I used to write and edit at the same time, trying to perfect what I'd written all in one go but it never resulted in convincing scenes and I'd end up deleting most of it and starting again.
A first draft is just that - a draft. Get to know your characters as if they were a real person (which is what you're trying to convey) and simply let their voice flow. You can always go back and amend it, which is better when you've moved away from the words and can view them with a fresh outlook once you've finished the whole story.

Dialogue is perhaps one of the main issues I find when editing for an author and is usually down to the characters not being 'rounded' enough to be real people in the story. Repetitive tags are also an issue, but with stronger dialogue these should only emphasise your character's voice rather than explain it - the whole show don't tell aspect.
I agree with the comments that advise you to get to know your characters and to write as it comes, editing later. Editing as you go only serves to interupt the flow of the story as you're creating it and this will show in your narrative and dialogue.

Yes i find dialogue to help me more understand the complex society that we live in today. If it wasn't for dialogue I never would've became a brain surgeon

One thing I like to do when developing characters is go someplace like a mall; sit, watch and listen.
As writers, it is drilled into us that we need to use proper grammar. But the fact is almost no one speaks that way. They use contractions, slang, and abbreviations. Unless you want your characters to sound like androids, you have to implement those elements.
When I put dialogue into my stories, I write it the way I believe my characters would say it, then I read it aloud to be sure it sounds the way I expected. If it sounds mechanical or rehearsed, I re-write.

If you don’t start by giving your characters their own unique voice, then dialogue will always be difficult.

In my opinion, writing the way people speak is wrong. The reason is, they wander all over the place, have lots of "er"s and "you know"s, and all sorts of other things that slow the pace. Whatever else, you have to keep the reader engaged.

Having a different voice for all the characters is all well and good, if you can do it, but if it is exaggerated, it tends to stick out that way.

I don't know if my written dialog is any good or not, other than I've had some people tell me they love it. However, most is pretty much in the common vernacular. Plus, many of my characters (those that get dialog) are pretty profane. Soldiers talk like soldiers, Mormons talk like Mormons (i.e., if they do swear, it's seen as an anomaly.)
I also try to keep dialog brief, except when genuinely necessary. Basically, I've taken a look at how many different writers write dialog, and then try and emulate what seems to be common. I try to keep in mind that I'm not writing literature, I'm writing character and plot driven fiction.

Swearing is an interesting aspect. While real people do swear, sometimes quite a bit, is it necessary? There is a lot of good but usually older literature out there with no swearing. So e of the more modern stuff has lots of it, with all the characters saying it, so again they all sound the same. The question then is, what does it achieve? I must confess I try to keep it to a minimum, and when it is there, it is supposed to indicate the character is really angry, annoyed, or something like that. Maybe I am odd, but I would be curious to know what others think.

I agree about the swearing. Less is more. It should be character-specific, and if everyone is swearing then it's just boring. Too often I see it as a substitute for good dialog.

I think some level of swearing makes sense for lowly characters like thieves and such. If you take a common thief by surprise, it'll not be a civilized person who says "excuse me, what did you do?" but more likely to use "what the f-?"

In my project, I keep the swearing low and pretty much use it where I think it'd make sense (and, even then, there's no F-word used, not even in actual sex scenes). What I am considering in my next editing stage is that there's one character who feels too bound with conventions when meeting people above him in social status (nobility, military officers) - what I think for him is to use full forms when he speaks with them as a sign of this ('it is' instead of 'it's' etc.).

I don’t have a problem with characters swearing a lot, it it fits the character and situation. One of my characters drops an F-bomb in almost every line of dialogue he gets( he’s an antagonist and is basically a sociopath), but another doesn’t swear at all and chides the other protagonists when they swear.

In my opinion, writing the way people speak is wrong. The reason is, they wander all over the place, have lots of "er"s and "you know"s, and all sorts of other things that slow the pace.

Here is an extract from my third book about the power of words which lists many of these 'faults' in our everyday speech:
"Actually…; …and all that; …and that sort of thing; As I say; As I said; At the end of the day…; If I were asked that, I would have to say…; If you can get my drift; If you can understand me ;If you know what I mean; I mean; I mean to say; Kinda like…; Like (that sort of thing); Like I say/said; So to speak; You know; (If) You know what I mean" and the one which has become very common over the last few years: "To be honest (with you)".

‘Um’, ‘Erm’ and ‘Ah’ could be included but are usually used to denote a pause when speech is not yet concluded but the speaker needs time to collect thoughts. Writing them into dialogue would ruin it completely.

Felix wrote: "..Writing them into dialogue would ruin it completely..."

"Um... Unless you're, like, you know, making one character have a unique voice and stuff?"

“Oh… well, about Life being a game and all. And how you should play it according to the rules. He was pretty nice about it. I mean he didn’t hit the ceiling or anything. He just kept talking about Life being a game and all. You know.”

-- Holden Caulfield, The Catcher In The Rye, J.D. Salinger

From the film Misery, based on the novel by Stephen King:

Annie Wilkes:
It's the swearing, Paul. It has no nobility.

Paul Sheldon:
These are slum kids, I was a slum kid. Everybody talks like that.

Annie Wilkes:
THEY DO NOT! At the feed store do I say, "Oh, now Wally, give me a bag of that F-in' pig feed, and a pound of that bitchly cow corn"? At the bank do I say, "Oh, Mrs. Malenger, here is one big bastard of a check, now give me some of your Christ-ing money!" THERE, LOOK THERE, NOW SEE WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!

This will make some of you laugh. As a kid, I found movie dialog unrealistic because nobody swore. I didn't know too many men who didn't swear A LOT. Yes, there were some who never swore, and the women used far less coarse phraseology than the men, but very few of the women I knew didn't swear, either. For the women, it was basically hell, J---s & C----t, God d--n, and s--t. For the men, it was the entire George Carlin list, and more. I learned early in life that any man who never swore, likely had never owned a Massey-Harris baler.

I'm the same way, Bill. I grew up around people who never swore, sure, but most everyone I knew swore at least once in a while. When I worked as a roguer as a teenager, all you heard from some kids was profanity. So, when I wrote my second novel about a team of teenagers roguing corn, I could not imagine them all saying things like, "Well, good golly. You silly ninny, you hit my head with a rock. I'll be jingle wingled if I don't pound your fanny for that."

I read a comment here earlier about older literature having no swearing. I'm guessing that was the publishers' doing in many cases.

Dwayne wrote: "I'm the same way, Bill. I grew up around people who never swore, sure, but most everyone I knew swore at least once in a while. When I worked as a roguer as a teenager, all you heard from some kids..."

In the older literature, it was convention not to include swearing, or specific sex, for that matter. The question then is, do you lose (or gain) readers with swearing? The older literature suggests you don't need it, and no, by leaving it out you don't resort to Dwayne's "Good golly . ." sentence :-)

There are readers who abhor swearing in a novel. There are readers who want it. There are readers who don't really care. There have been some best selling authors who wrote clean. There are some best selling authors who write dirty. Best that we can do is stay true to our own vision. Some people love how I handle dialogue. Some can't stand it. I'm okay with that.

And, yes, the "good golly" thing was an exaggeration. Realistically, I can't imagine a small-town mid-west "tough" kid in the eighties refraining from using some dirty talk. "Oh, darn it! You jerk, you hit my head with a rock! Dang it, I'll beat you up for that!" sounds too timid.

Using vernacular needs to be kept so the reading is easy and doesn't bog down with the "Ya'll git 'er done, ya 'ear." type of writing. As to the swearing, if it fits the character, fine, but don't have every character swear every time the open their mouths. (Which is the reason I never got through the two books I had from Grisham)

Make the dialogue unique, but not unreadable. I add the "Like yeah, I know," if it's a young person. Those from the hood don't use proper English and when I have my character talking, it isn't always correct, which makes my editors go crazy. People use "It" a lot, they leave dangling modifiers and end sentences with "too" and "Also". They frequently don't talk in complete sentences.

For those who cite the classic literature, they haven't read much if they haven't read authors who use vernacular used or swearing in their writing. It is there.

Again, you have to choose how to write dialogue, but when you read it aloud, does it sound right? Is it hard to read? Does it really sound like your character or is it being used for shock effect or to make him sound different without it fitting the personality of the character?
If your character says,"you know" a lot, I can almost guess the age. The same with "like". There is nothing unusable if done well.

BA - Good point on vernacular. The Brits in my first book don't swear very much, but some. The main character in my second book is looser with the bad words, reflective of her rural Mass. roots, but not heavily so. It's also a product of her generation. There are a couple of scenes where she's uncharacteristically un-profane, owing to her interacting with her Mormon neighbors and co-workers in western Colorado. Two characters in that book, and the third, are Canadian infantry born and raised on the Prairies. They swear like most of the people I know. :)

"Um... Unless you're, like, you know, making one character have a unique voice and stuff?"

Point made - if you can understand me?

B.A. wrote: "As to the swearing, if it fits the character, fine, but don't have every character swear every time the open their mouths. "

Agreed. When I'm writing something that will have profanity, I not only have some characters swear and some who don't, but I also pay attention to how often they swear, how strong their language, the reason they swear, etc. It helps reveal character. This one swears a lot because he thinks it makes him seem tough. This one swears once in a while, only if it serves to make him seem funnier. This one doesn't swear because his parents have him believing profanity leads you straight to hell.

"For those who cite the classic literature, they haven't read much if they haven't read authors who use vernacular used or swearing in their writing. It is there."

Shakespeare loved to slip dirty jokes in. "By my life, this is my lady’s hand. These be her very c’s, her u’s, and her t’s, and thus makes she her great P’s. It is in contempt of question her hand." ~ Malvolio Twelfth Night

Someone farther up said it best, I think, that some readers will appreciate the "realism" of swearing, others will clutch their pearls, and some don't care either way. It's really up to what kind of story you're writing and the audience you're writing for. My story is gritty with some really nasty people, so those people swear almost constantly. Other characters don't swear very often, and one doesn't swear at all and chides the others who do.

I agree about keeping in mind the character. Some of my characters are people doing dangerous things, having them say "Oh my goodness" just doesn't have the same punch as "Oh S$%t" if you get my drift!

Peter wrote: "Someone farther up said it best, I think, that some readers will appreciate the "realism" of swearing, others will clutch their pearls, and some don't care either way. It's really up to what kind o..."

Exactly. (For the record, I'm on Team Swearing-is-realistic).

I find the best way to write dialogue is to listen. Also I recommend writers take screenwriting courses and workshops. You'll find dialogue really flows and you will be entertained.

Ian wrote: "Swearing is an interesting aspect. While real people do swear, sometimes quite a bit, is it necessary? There is a lot of good but usually older literature out there with no swearing. So e of the mo..."

I absolutely agree... I don't use much swearing in my dialog, so when I do, I do it to shock the reader. If cussing is used too frequently, it removes the ability to grab the reader so intently when you need to.

The dialogue plays the central role in what Author's create, so considering the characters ( and not only bad boy or mafia type roles) are complex persona's dealing with the storyline's and never-ending entertaining drama they find themselves in, its impossible to not use swearing especially as its become part of daily language in our world.
So an alpha male, or even a CIA agent whose dealing with certain situations, REALISM.....MUST BE INCLUDED or the whole feel and magnetic qualities found in this creative style will totally deminish everything the author developed within these characters.
Loosing what makes a book real..even if it's something some readers may not like, is what creating that artistic masterpiece is all about

I dunno . . . :) Swearing is like yelling. It shows the person has lost control.

An example is Dwayne's post: He made her so mad, she lost control and made her swear and yell. :)

Annie Wilkes:
THEY DO NOT! At the feed store do I say, "Oh, now Wally, give me a bag of that F-in' pig feed, and a pound of that bitchly cow corn"? At the bank do I say, "Oh, Mrs. Malenger, here is one big bastard of a check, now give me some of your Christ-ing money!" THERE, LOOK THERE, NOW SEE WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!

M.L. wrote: "Swearing is like yelling. It shows the person has lost control. i>

I disagree. Many blue-collar workers swear as a second language. I know it's very common among soldiers. Also, many people lose control easily. We like to believe people are rational, but many aren't. The more people in a group, the more irrational group think will modify personality. If the story is for kids or about a nun's life in a convent, swearing probably shouldn't be considered. If soldiers are fighting aliens or monsters in a suicide-mission . . . the F-bombs will drop more frequently than ACTUAL bombs.

Although dialogue is a vehicle for the author to divulge infomation to the reader, GOOD dialogue can't be obvious that it's leading the reader.
Good dialogue must seems as if it's the character speaking, and asserting their own personal worldview and agenda while allowing the reader to DEDUCE the information.
A good way to gage if your dialogue is good, is to 1) assess how well it implies what is necessary to the reader, 2) assess if it pushes the characters' agenda 3) finally, read the dialogue without tags and see if the statements conveys the person's character. If it's an anal character speaking, or witty character speaking, do they sound anal or witty? Can you tell who is speaking without tags? 4) edit accordingly.

When it comes to swearing; IMO less is always better ... most stories can be told in such a way that the actual use of profanity doesn't need to be used. In my books, when the moment demands an obscenity, I find a way for the character to express either in a non verbal way or using a word or phrase that has been established previously as profane.
Helps that my stories are mostly off the planet.

Most of the people in my stories are either sailors or marines. If they're not swearing in every other piece of dialogue, they're not in character!

I think it's also worth pointing out that people who haven't been around folks who swear, have a hard time getting it right. This was well illustrated in that scene in "Misery" when Annie clumsily tries her hand at swearing, and fails. I've also noticed that there are regionalisms with profanity. I know from online conversing that "p---k" is more commonly used where I come from than "d--k". As in "he's a p---k" is a more common phrase than "he's a d--k."
Now, no one, anywhere, would ever describe someone as a "stunned d--k." That's just linguistically awkward, whereas "stunned p---k" is not.
I learned my profanity at the knees of masters. No man ever, who owned hogs and/or a Massey-Harris baler, abstained from profanity. Some believe that Satan himself had a hand in the design of that un-Christly SOB of an industrial design, and I knew many who owned both.

Phillip wrote: "M.L. wrote: "Swearing is like yelling. It shows the person has lost control. i>

I disagree. Many blue-collar workers swear as a second language. I know it's very common among soldiers. Also, many ..."

Isn't fear loss of control? For a good reason: they might die and they know it. That's why people scream. For example, take a second language. If someone speaks a second language and the person becomes upset or even hysterical, the second language becomes fragmented. The same with profanity. People that use a lot of it also know when not to use it. (Unless they have Tourette's.) If a man or woman is swearing a blue streak, and, say, a cop comes along and asks what is wrong, if the person swearing is smart, he/she cleans up their language.

The "Misery" example is funny. She is awkward at swearing, but she lost control and so the caps show her yelling. As for all caps in general, that's like, hmm, Vernon Dursley yelling at Harry Potter. Mr. Dursley didn't swear (it was a kid's book) but he turned purple and pulled his mustache out. He lost control. :)

Every word of Owen Meany's dialogue in A Prayer for Owen Meany is in caps. I love it.