World, Writing, Wealth discussion

Hungry or exhausted humanoids might not be very nice, probably with some individual exceptions. Kinda hard to be humane on an empty stomach.
What do you think? Would animal instincts come to the fore, if the society deteriorates in some major calamity?

The true story of the Donner Party probably answers that question. I did hear something on public radio that explains their behavior. When you're starving, higher order thinking goes out the window.

If animalism was true, than those who were placed in NAZI concentration camps would have lost all humanity in the quest to survive.

And yet all reports attest that didn't happen and what we find is that even in the most dire circumstances, the human capacity for courage and kindness survives.

I read Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, and I admired his ability to focus on the positive. But I don't think we'll ever know - or would want to know - what people were willing to do in order to survive. Who would tell those stories? I think they remain untold.

Graeme wrote: "If animalism was true, than those who were placed in NAZI concentration camps would have lost all humanity in the quest to survive.

And yet all reports attest that didn't happen and what we find i..."

I think you're correct, Graeme. We saw it many times in the atrocities of WW2, both in Europe, and in Asia. People who were starving and unwell, still providing both kindness and care, while in desperate circumstances themselves.

I'm certain that there are people who also commit atrocities to survive, but repeatedly we see examples of great courage and personal sacrifice in the most dreadful circumstances.

The majority of humanity are good souls. There is a small fraction who'd happily kill the rest of us if it aided their own desires.

We are human. Not animals. But I think of the experiment done at Stanford, "The Prisoner and Guards" or later the Lucifer Effect. That said, as humans we all have the ability by our nature to be evil. We should not blame the animals who have no conscious or soul. I do not relate to animals but I do relate to the concept of good and evil in mankind. My two cents. :)

Regina wrote: "We are human. Not animals. But I think of the experiment done at Stanford, "The Prisoner and Guards" or later the Lucifer Effect. That said, as humans we all have the ability by our nature to be ev..."

I am not so sure. I think animals to have consciousness, at least the more advanced ones. They are self-aware, and can communicate. Not as well as us, but still. And also, the animal does not kill for fun. The carnivore will kill to protect its young or to eat, but not for fun.

Yes I agree with the fact that animals are able to communicate. They are definitely self aware, haha probably more than some humans. I don't believe they have souls, therefore I am unsure they have the ability to differentiate between "good and bad" as we do as human beings.

Also, regarding your last statements, did you know the Killer whale has been known to play with its prey for fun before eating it. It may be, I can only assume, since I am not a killer whale, that it is fun for them and that is all.

Human beings however have a conscious and are aware when they do something wrong; at some point even the sociopath knew. To not be aware would make us just like the animals. I don't personally relate to that perspective.

My dog senses the tone of commands when I give them and responds accordingly. I have spoiled dogs and if my tone is rough, in the same manner as they would use for instance, when another dog tries to eat from their bowl of food, they can understand that tone. But they live their lives just doing things for the sake of doing unless I train them otherwise. Again my two cents on the matter.

Had not heard that one about killer whales. Cats seem to play with their prey, but that is not so. The smaller cats don't have the power to kill outright, so they batter them until they do enough damage. I have seen a servil do this in Africa. (Cats generally kill through their feet.)

I think they do know about right and wrong, at least to a point. Dogs often do things they think will please, and that comes from the wild - they please the pack leader. My cat certainly understands wrong, although he does it anyway. He knows it is wrong to scratch furniture, so if he is going to do it, he sneaks around the back where I can't see him, and if I do put my head around he looks up, gives what I interpret as a guilty expression, then heads off to make his escape. I also have a cat burglar, and the way he sneaks in, looks around, and flees if he knows I have seen him is also quite comical.

I think that, biologically, we are animals. What sets us apart is self-awareness. We're aware that we're going to die, and we're aware of good and evil and the consequences of our actions. But, like all animals, we have the instinct to do whatever it takes to survive. Some of us can override this instinct, but odds are against it, which makes those who do so extraordinary.

Hi Scout,

I think we are different. My dogs have self awareness. Especially if they sense danger. It is instinct for self preservation. But self awareness if different than discerning right from wrong and doing so with out a cue from the outside world like the animal relies upon. It is an innate human quality that I believe comes from being distinctly created human.

I would never desire to over ride my instinct to live. As one who has met with a person who intended me ill intent it was those instincts that saved my life. That person, up to the last moment; knowing I knew they were going to attempt me bodily harm, had a choice to not do what they impulsed to do. I fortunately was able to kick in adrenaline which ultimately saved my life.

People have conscious abilities to decipher through choices.and this, I believe separates us from the animals. I'm so happy we can share our perspectives.

Ian wrote: "Had not heard that one about killer whales. Cats seem to play with their prey, but that is not so. The smaller cats don't have the power to kill outright, so they batter them until they do enough d..."

I love your cat tales. So funny. Your cat does know it displeases you with your reaction, but he can not help his impulse to scratch the furniture. I can only imagine it must give it some great satisfaction. I may presume it does this when ever it has the urge. I wonder if it does it right in front of you or when you are away? Glorious cats. They do pick who they tolerate and who is unimportant. My son's cat knows who feeds him and therefore is consistently available to that person. Fickle little farts. Yet soft to the touch. Ours likes to hunt. Anything really, from insects to small lizards. It continually lies in wait for birds too. As it lays snug on the ground, head perched up towards the sky. Poor kitty he hasn't caught one yet but he bounces off of the grass like a bunny rabbit as flying insects pass by. It is quite amusing.

Regina, he doesn't scratch the furniture too much. He has a scratch pad and another scratch post in the same room and he uses these generally, however some times he finds himself behind the furniture when he knows I can't see him, and he thinks I don't know he is there, and . . scratch scratch.

Besides being very friendly much of the time, he has uses too. He has a little nest under the grape vine, and this time of the year the birds love ripe grapes, but they are less keen if he is there. Also, I have bush quite close to the house (plenty of trees to scratch too) and when I don't have a cat, at this time of the year it gets overrun with rats. Not with him around.

He sounds like a very useful companion. He has a great purpose in his creation for you. I love it. It is wonderful isn't it? I think it is great he is so friendly. My first cat was a charm. I was five and he was able to figure out how to open a door, knock down the bag of cat food and stick his head in a tiny opening to feed on his food. He was a bit of a fatty. I loved him very much. He would bring his dead birds and lizards at our front door when he would catch them. They are fun little beast. I appreciate the companionship and purpose the creator has given us in them.

As far as self-awareness goes, my previous cat, Felix, had a communication trick. If I were at the computer and he wanted a lap, he would sit down beside me and with a paw give my leg three taps. If I did not respond he would do it again. If I tapped my thigh, he would jump up onto my lap. If I shook my head to say no, he would walk off somewhere else. To me, that shows self-awareness.

Or conditioning.

Regina, I do think that we have the instinct for self-preservation, and it serves us well. I said that some of us can override that instinct, and those who do are extraordinary. People who run into a burning building, pull people out of burning cars, run toward dangerous situations in the line of duty - those are the people who save lives despite the danger to themselves, despite that survival instinct.

What's the ratio of humanity/animality in us - what do you think?

Humans who have been loved and brought up to be kind, caring and compassionate toward others tend to follow those traits as long ast they are in a kind, caring, and compassionate environment. However, if that environment changes radically in the other direction, basic survival and destructive instincts, more often than not, kick in.

During the first couple of months of my 13-month combat tour in Vietnam, I did the things I did because I had do do them. Gradually, I found myself doing the things I did because I wanted to do them.

In answer to the thread topic, "Does humanity kick in after animality is satisfied?" I'd say yes. When our basic needs are met, we can begin to think about others. But we are still animals, yet also something more, for better or worse. (Discussion in other threads maybe about how we became different from animals.) I've read that animals don't kill unless they're hungry or defending territory, but humans do. We kill in anger, for revenge, for money. I've been thinking about what you said, Jim, and I wonder if we can be conditioned to do things until we no longer think about right and wrong, just kill or be killed.

Scout,

In response to your comment wondering if we can be conditioned to do things until we no longer think about right and wrong, just kill or be killed, I offer the following:

During my time in Marine Boot Camp (basic training) at Parris Island, South Carolina in 1966, we were taught the following chant to maintain our rhythm while marching.

Gonna go to Vietnam
to fight and kill the Viet-Cong.
If I die in a combat zone
just bag me up and send me home!

Considering the fact that I still remember that chant verbatim 57 years later, I believe one can be condtioned to fight and kill.