The Sword and Laser discussion

I know that Pat has said he didn't realize what a lute looked like when he started writing the book, and in his world they are 7 string instruments. So I figured others may not either. The common lute of the Renaissance looked like this:


They varied in the number of strings, but most western lutes had multiple strings per course, more like a modern 12 string guitar than a 6 string. Usually, the main string was intended to be plucked and the sympathetic string would resonate with it, adding volume and color. In this book's world the lute is more like a 6 string, so a smaller guitar played classically (plucked, not strummed) is more likely what Kvothe's lute is supposed to sound like. Something like Andres Segovia.

I still like to think of it as a 14 string and Kvothe is counting courses. This would sound more like this or this.

I want to hear The Lay of Sir Savien Traliard, damnit.

What's with the lute-shaming?! :)

I have nothing against lutes, guitars are lutes, just with truss rods and a larger body.

What I really don't get is the lack of tuning machines. The university has gears, so the use of a peg is a bit odd. Though with gut strings the tuning range probably isn't as narrow as it is for metal strings.

Doesn't Kvothe describe something like what's in that picture as the "court lute"? I want to say some fellow in the Eolian plays one at some point.

Yes, at Chapter 58: Names for Beginning.

"That's a lute?"Denna's lips moved silently. "I count 24 strings. How does that work? That's more than some harps."

That leads me to think he's talking about a Baroque Lute.


That quote also says that Trouper's lutes are strung with metal strings which I forgot, and that the necks were better braced. It is unclear whether that means just the neck join at the body, which is a tricky bit of engineering and woodwork; or the use of truss rods, which allows for a more stable neck and more string tension on a longer neck than would otherwise be possible.

The court lute is more closely related to the real world renaissance and baroque lutes, which would normally have around 7 to 11 courses - sometimes more, sometimes less depending on the maker(totalling between 12 and 21 individual strings depending on how many of the higher register courses were doubled). My guess would be that the one in the book would be a 13 course lute with the top 2 courses left singular totalling 24 individual strings.

As for the troupers lute, it's probably closer to the modern German lute guitar, which normally has about 8 individual strings but is shaped like a lute to give a more "authentic" feel to folk music performances. This particular instrument started showing up in the 1920s or so. It's designed to look and sound more like a lute than a guitar, but is meant to be played more like a modern classical guitar.
Guitars and lutes are constructed quite differently from each other - besides the obvious things like the number of strings and the shape of the body - the way that the body's constructed is different, as are the way that the neck and the head are arranged. The techqniues used for playing the two are quite different as well, these all add up to different sounding instruments.

As for the use of "pegs", they aren't actual pegs like clothes pegs, that's actually correct musical terminology for the knobs at the head of the instrument used to tune the strings - tuning pegs.

Gut strings have the issue that they can be greatly affected by changes in temperature and humidity, knocking the entire instrument out of tune (a friend of mine from back when I was doing my degree in music composition used to rage about the tuning on her violin because of gut strings). But they are the preferred string type for lutes, modern lutes tend towards nylon, but for historical lutes it's gut all the way because a) that's what was used to make strings and b) the higher pitched courses made from steel strings would require more tension in the strings and because lutes aren't as robust as guitars, the neck may snap. Pianos from the early 1700s suffered from this before they upgraded from wood to metal frames - the strings would be so tense that they would literally cause the frame to collapse in on itself under strenuous playing.

Jonathon wrote: "...the strings would be so tense that they would literally cause the frame to collapse in on itself under strenuous playing"

We'll that's wonderfully dramatic.

Almost as bad as breaking, too much tension makes the neck bend or go "hogback" which raises the action, making it hard to play.

Tuning machines (tuning pegs with gears) are wonderful because they offer something like a 10:1 ratio which means 10 turns of the knob turns into 1 turn of the post. It makes it easy to make fine adjustments and it helps keep it in tune.

Typical tuning pegs for lutes are just a tapered peg that is turned and held in place with friction.

Putting 24 tuning machines on a lute would be insanely expensive in NotW. That's 24 worm gears and 48 crown gears per lute plus the post, peg, and mounting hardware. Probably close to a full month's labor. Ouch.

Paolo wrote: "I want to hear The Lay of Sir Savien Traliard, damnit."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk5ZN...

I get the lack of tuning machines on the court lute in the book, too many strings and it can't be kept in tune when not in use anyway. I got the impression that the pegs were just wooden pegs, like in a violin.

The Troupers lute that Kvothe plays it would seem to need them to stay in tune though. They aren't cheap instruments, and they are built to last. They have "metal" strings and can apparently be kept in tune when not in use. That means a good deal of tension and a relatively small tuning range. Maybe there is a locking mechanism for the pegs that wasn't mentioned, or maybe Kvothe is so used to tuning quickly that he never mentions it.

Oh, and there is a Mythbusters episode about pianos and the tension they are under. Watching a piano get restrung is like a seeing an engine rebuild, lots of wrenching and fiddly bits.

I think that the lute described would have a deeper & richer sound then what we’re use to hearing from a sting instrument. It would also have a wide range. Which would also make it
less forgiving. Once you’ve heard the song with all the notes, listening to it with fewer cords would be like listening to a familiar song played on a child's piano.

As for the song in the book I imagined it to be something very complex like this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IQYpo...
((Pachelbel) Canon - Trace Bundy & Sungha Jung)
Except with vocals.
I buy the album.

Speaking of pianos, a guy I work with bought a house with a rotting basement piano (you know the kind) and he wasn't confident about moving it out himself, so he started to dismantle it, only to discover that the cast iron frame was too heavy. He asked me, "should I just hit it with a sledge hammer?" "Is it still strung?" "Yeah." "Only if you have a death wish." He unstrung it with a square drive socket on a power drill.

Interesting thing about guitars (at least electric guitars) is that the tension on a set of strings is fairly consistent on a per string basis (about +/- 7% per string). This main variable is the mass of the string/unit length of string - given a desired frequency and tension, you can pick the mass of string you'll need, which will in part determine the string's material and diameter.

Less mass (lighter) strings means less tension which usually means easier fingering and a more delicate instrument, but it also means that for an acoustic instrument, a very quiet sound. More mass (heavier) strings means more tension which means more difficult fingering and a much heavier-built instrument, but the instrument will project more.

When violins were switched from gut to metal strings, the result was a much louder instrument.

The nice thing about the consistency is that playing on each string will feel more or less the same.

Bookshelf wrote: "As for the song in the book I imagined it to be something very complex like this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IQYpo... ..."

Wow, that was amazing!

Do you think Kvothe could play this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkKcd51QCiE&list=UUL-0gAth4u6Wp-9_98XU3nA

(I think Tommy Emmanuel would have earned his silver pipes)

Yes on the pips- He's another guitarists that I like.
There aren’t many great (or even good) 12 string guitar players out there.

Warning-Rat hole! Which leads to my next item.
I watched video of people playing the baroque lute.
They only appear to be using the bottom 6 six cords.
Then they strum the top few with their thumb.
Is that because it’s too difficult for anyone to play all 24 cords?
I also noticed no one tried to play anything modern on a lute.
Easy for me to say (since I can’t play either).
My take away is that very few people can handle12 much less 24 cords.
Which really would make a 24 cord player extraordinary.

I'd defer to any lute players, but the issue is likely one of sound. They are likely playing the bass line with their thumb and the melody with their fingers. The melodic line needs several fingers to be fully developed, and the thumb would accompany the melody. This is not usual in guitar playing, except with finger-style guitar playing country and blues players (Chet Atkins or Mississippi John Hurt) or those influenced by them (Mark Knopfler). The lowest registers on the baroque lute also extend beyond the neck, so they can really only play the note to which they are strung.

Also, the necks on those things are mammothly wide, even if you could fret the notes, you only have four fingers to place, leaving you with a more limited choice of what to play. It's not like you can wrap your thumb around the neck on one.

Oh, and here's a link to Stevie Ray Vaughan on an acoustic Guild 12 string. That is what I think Kvothe sounds like when he "needs to burn".

Skip wrote: "I'd defer to any lute players, but the issue is likely one of sound. They are likely playing the bass line with their thumb and the melody with their fingers. The melodic line needs several finge..."
Thanks. Interesting.

Renaissance lute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0feQz...

Baroque lute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7uQP...

Renaissance guitar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bpTO...

Orpharion (basically a wire-strung lute):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHNMS...

Viola da gamba (kind of a fretted cello; probably not relevant to the books, but still):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvpU3...