SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Welcome to the buddy read for Beowulf. Other than first impressions, please use spoiler tags so others can follow the discussion as they read.

We're reading this in advance of a buddy read for The Mere Wife starting a week later, April 12.

I'd been planning to read Seamus Heaney's translation, but because I've already read it I'm going to try Tolkien's instead. It'll be fun to compare notes with folks reading other versions.

So excited for this! Thanks for putting up the thread Travis!

I listened to and read the Seamus Heaney translation today, since I didn't think I'd have a solid chunk to get through it all on Friday. I'd read another translation in high school, but I didn't remember much other than (view spoiler)[Grendel and his mom (hide spoiler)], so I was surprised when that was only the first half of the story.

On this read, I was less struck by the monster-fighting (which I feel like was less vividly described in this version than in the other one I read) and more by all of the political (and architectural - I laughed when (around line 770, Heaney translation)(view spoiler)[the description of the battle between Beowulf and Grendel was interrupted in order to describe on the building they are fighting in (hide spoiler)]) tangents that appear throughout, which paint a fascinating picture of the world these characters exist within.

My favorite line (line 2179-80, Heaney translation): (view spoiler)[
"he... never cut down
a comrade who was drunk..."
This is in the middle of a litany of praise about how honorable Beowulf is, and I found it amusing that this is what they thought was the best proof of that. (hide spoiler)]

Just starting this. I’m enjoying it so far though I haven’t gotten that far. Reading the Heaney translation and I love that it’s so accessible.

450 Heaney translation:
I am surprised that there are so many mentions of (view spoiler)[God and that though it originally came from Danish/Swedish traditions, it was likely documented by a Christian priest.

I find myself wondering if I’m looking at the world’s first piece of propaganda, or if the oral version of the story altered over time as the invading tribes settled and converted. (hide spoiler)]

I know Tolkien was inspired by Norse Mythology, but I have to wonder how much of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings was inspired directly by Beowulf? Does anyone know?

920:
(view spoiler)[I ask because the song about Siegmund and the dragon immediately called to mind The Hobbit. (hide spoiler)]

Beowulf was definitely one of the epics that Tolkien had in mind while writing his books!

Thinking I might do the Tolkien version too. I was hoping to get it on audio but IDK if that's possible. I did the Gummere translation initially, so either that or the Heaney would be new to me!

Allison wrote: "Thinking I might do the Tolkien version too. I was hoping to get it on audio but IDK if that's possible."

I looked around and couldn't find it on audio. So far, I've just flipped through and the immediately striking thing is that Tolkien's translation is in prose instead of verse.

I'll start tomorrow morning. Really loving the comments so far, especially those about (view spoiler)[the significance of intoxication for this world. (hide spoiler)] I wonder if that'll be a through line between this and Mere Wife or not.....

Allison wrote: "Beowulf was definitely one of the epics that Tolkien had in mind while writing his books!

Thinking I might do the Tolkien version too. I was hoping to get it on audio but IDK if that's possible. I..."

Cool- thanks Allison! If this goes as quick as I'm expecting I might just read both.

I've decided to listen to Heaney for now. He's reading it and has a great bit of brogue to him

Reading this sort of makes me wish I read Old English. I'm wondering how much of it is original to the story and how much is Heaney's interpretation.

So many of these scenes seem like they could come straight from an action movie.

I am enjoying it though. If there was ever a classic written for me it's Beowulf.

Sarah, you should read the Volsunga Saga! If you like this, you might like that one. It's got a ton of badass chicks that say glorious things like "Never would I wed one who knew the name of Fear." And then she like kicks a dude out of a tower. I had so many girl crushes in that saga.

Allison wrote: "Sarah, you should read the Volsunga Saga! If you like this, you might like that one. It's got a ton of badass chicks that say glorious things like "Never would I wed one who knew the name of Fear."..."

LOL! I would love that. Adding it to my list for sure.

Allison are you able to link to the Volsunga saga? Sorry to be a pain I just can’t tell which one it is.

Nevermind I found it.

Finished! Sorry I know I'm early. I wasn't expecting it to be that quick. I enjoyed it for the most part. I do think the beginning was much stronger than the end.

(view spoiler)[I felt like the end was very disjointed with a lot of bouncing back and forth between past, future and present. Like one moment Beowulf is dead, the next the Geats are battling Swedes, and then we're back to seeing Beowulf lying dead in the sand. It was just an odd way to tell the story and didn't feel like it fit to me? Either that or I grossly misunderstood.

I do see where Beowulf likely influenced a lot of modern stories/tropes. And of course the influence on Lord of the Rings was huge, and on a side note, has taken on a whole new meaning for me. I'm half tempted to pick that up again and not sure at all where it would lead me.

Another thing I found really interesting, was introduction of Christianity into the story. It's a hard reminder of the way histories can and will be rewritten.

My take on it was either: it was a story documented in maybe the 9th/10th centuries, where Danes invading English/Irish kingdoms had already begun to convert, and the story was written/told under the influence of a Christian faith.

Or: a priest somewhere took a pagan story and liked it but had to make it fit what was then, modern Christian ideals. So he included all the stuff about giants (among other things), which is very much Norse mythology, said that God banished them from the earth until doomsday.

Or: the Danes themselves converted the story to reflect their Christian faith while also keeping elements of their cultural heritage, and it was documented that way, while in the original story any mention of God probably originally referred to Odin or Thor.

The whole time period is fascinating to me because it saw the end of the Roman empire which left behind much of their influence across the english kingdoms, the emergence of Christianity among a previously pagan people, and the re-introduction of pagan ritual/mythology into that faith.

Sorry I know I'm rambling here. I love history. (hide spoiler)]

Sarah wrote: "Just starting this. I’m enjoying it so far though I haven’t gotten that far. Reading the Heaney translation and I love that it’s so accessible.

450 Heaney translation:
I am surprised that there are so many mentions of [spoiler removed]"

Yes, I was surprised too! Heaney comments on this a bit in his introduction - (view spoiler)[pointing out how this element is at odds with the warrior mentality of seeking glory in life because that's all you get. He also mentions the part (around line 170) where the narrator describes them going to "pagan shrines" and talks about how they were cursed because of this but could still find their way to God in the afterlife, which is an interesting combination of the original story context with the author's views. (hide spoiler)]

Kaa wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Just starting this. I’m enjoying it so far though I haven’t gotten that far. Reading the Heaney translation and I love that it’s so accessible.

450 Heaney translation:
I am surprise..."

I didn’t read the introduction (shame on me). Intros to classics always feel so dry to me.

But yeah I think it was very much author influence and a neat look back at history.

Sarah wrote: "I didn’t read the introduction (shame on me). Intros to classics always feel so dry to me. "

I skimmed it. A lot of it was very dry, but there was some fascinating stuff tucked in between about Heaney's Irish background, the relationships between languages, and the word "thole".

@Sarah: Also, to comment on something you mentioned briefly in your completion post and also discussed in your review: (spoilers through to the end) (view spoiler)[I agree that the scenes about the Geats battling Swedes in the middle of the scenes of Beowulf dying were jarring. I found them especially hard to follow when I was listening, but reading the text afterward helped me to make more sense of them. My interpretation was that this was expanding on Wiglaf's rebuke of the the warriors who ran away, although it's delivered by a messenger rather than Wiglaf himself. They are explaining why it's such a bad thing for everyone that Beowulf has died. (hide spoiler)]

Kaa wrote: "@Sarah: Also, to comment on something you mentioned briefly in your completion post and also discussed in your review: (spoilers through to the end) [spoilers removed]"

Thanks Kaa! I did see their purpose, and I think in novel format it would have been totally fine because a single sentence like: (view spoiler)[Wiglaf foresaw what life without Beowulf would be, or if Beowulf himself had some sort of dying vision of the future, it would have been totally fine.

And I do think one of those chapter headings said something like that, but then the next chapter heading says something like: “Geats battle Swedes” so I thought we had moved past Beowulf’s death in time. (hide spoiler)]

Just started. Here's the opening paragraph from the Tolkien:

Lo! the glory of the kings of the people of the Spear-Danes in days of old we have heard tell, how those princes did deeds of valour. Oft Scyld Scefing robbed the hosts of foemen, many peoples, of the seats where they drank their mead, laid fear upon men, he who first was found forlorn; comfort for that he lived to know, mighty grew under heaven, throve in honour, until all that dwelt nigh about, over the sea where the whale rides, must hearken to him and yield him tribute--what a good king was he!

Oh wow. That would be very difficult in audio lol

I really do find it interesting the journey through this book where the poet aligns more and more with the ideals of Christianity.

It reminds me a lot of reading the Prose Edda, which was only transcribed after Christianity came to Scandinavia. In it, Snorri Sturluson makes the Norse gods the descendants of Adam and Eve, with powers and might greater than the regular men of Iceland. He also managed to connect them all to ancient Rome in a pretty fantastic early attempt at uniting all the stories into one lineage.

Okay, that was my serious post, now here's my childish one:

I can't help but snicker a little every time they say Hrothgar or Beowulf enter the gap of danger.

Allison wrote: "I really do find it interesting the journey through this book where the poet aligns more and more with the ideals of Christianity."

This was my favorite part too- the melding of cultures over time and how somethings change but somethings stay the same.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Gordon translation or the Flynn translation? Those are the only two on audio at my library, and if I can't listen to it, I probably won't get to it.

Ariana wrote: "Does anyone have any thoughts on the Gordon translation or the Flynn translation? Those are the only two on audio at my library, and if I can't listen to it, I probably won't get to it."

I haven't read either, but it's such a short story, I can't imagine them being too heinous. Do you have Hoopla? There are a few on Hoopla, too. If all else fails, there's Librivox, which has the Gummere version. I liked that one fine and it's a quick listen.

Sarah wrote: "Kaa wrote: "@Sarah: Also, to comment on something you mentioned briefly in your completion post and also discussed in your review: (spoilers through to the end) [spoilers removed]"

Thanks Kaa! I d..."

Yeah, there were a couple places where the chapter headers had useful information, but often they interrupted the flow of reading so I ignored them. (He didn't read them out loud in the audiobook, which helped.) I definitely had to go back and re-read that section very carefully in order to figure it out after listening to it and having no idea what was going on.

I finished this one Beowulf a couple of weeks back. I'm new to reading this story and found the illustions alongside the mix of 2 different trnslations with an anglo-saxon poem made this easy and light work for me.

This made it such a neat read!!!! I will read the posts here with interest as I'm interested to read another translation down the line.

Lol re. the added Christianity. Around line 142 of the Tolkien translation, it gets plopped in surrounded by parentheses about how sad it is that the Danes didn't know the Creator.

A line I really love for how it starts with the specific details of this story and then broadens into a larger claim about the unknown (~126-130):

(view spoiler)[the fierce killer pursued them still, both knights and young, a dark shadow of death, lurking, lying in wait, in long night keeping the misty moors: men know not whither sorcerers of hell in their wanderings roam. (hide spoiler)]

Travis wrote: "A line I really love for how it starts with the specific details of this story and then broadens into a larger claim about the unknown (~126-130):

[spoilers removed]"

That is a great line. Tolkien's translation sounds much more poetic than Heaney's.

Sarah wrote: "TTolkien's translation sounds much more poetic than Heaney's."

He is all about the alliteration.

Finished! I'm so glad to return to this narrative. I'd forgotten entirely about the (view spoiler)[entire section at the end featuring the dragon. It's amazing how much of a template it became for representations of dragons in its wake.

Mainly, though, I loved the middle section featuring Grendel's mother. It had me wondering how Mere Wife will deal with these sections --- the misogyny of the representation (she's hideous in part because she's a powerful woman), the motivation of revenge (contrasted with Grendel's evil, which seems part of his very nature as a descendent of Cain), her namelessness. (hide spoiler)]

I'm picking up The Mere Wife tomorrow.

There's so much room for Grendel's mother to have her story, I'm really excited to hear it.

Travis wrote: "Finished! I'm so glad to return to this narrative. I'd forgotten entirely about the entire section at the end featuring the dragon. It's amazing how much of a template it became for representations..."

Love these points! (view spoiler)[I'm also curious how The Mere Wife will deal with these, and really just the violence in general. I'm guessing it won't be violent but more psychological in nature, but it is interesting to think about! (hide spoiler)]

I think I'm going to have to pick up a hard copy of The Mere Wife from the library. I was hoping the ebook would come off hold before the buddy read but it's still saying two weeks. :(

Allison wrote: "Sarah, you should read the Volsunga Saga! If you like this, you might like that one. It's got a ton of badass chicks that say glorious things like "Never would I wed one who knew the name of Fear."..."

I didn't do this buddy read but (in addition to Beowulf) I have read two of the Norse sagas: Volsunga Saga and Njal's Saga, and I liked both, but slightly preferred the second one. Njal's Saga is the most famous of the family sagas (the ones that focus on the history of families). There is some magic in this one, but the fantasy aspect is downplayed compared to Volsunga Saga -- no dragons, for instance. There is a lot of intense conflict between the characters, though.

Beth wrote: "Allison wrote: "Sarah, you should read the Volsunga Saga! If you like this, you might like that one. It's got a ton of badass chicks that say glorious things like "Never would I wed one who knew th..."

Thanks! I'll add that one too.

Sarah wrote: "I think I'm going to have to pick up a hard copy of The Mere Wife from the library. I was hoping the ebook would come off hold before the buddy read but it's still saying two weeks. :( "

If your library uses Overdrive, I think the calculated wait times are just based on the ratio of copies owned to holds remaining - if there's only one copy and no other holds, the wait time will still show up as "About 2 weeks" even if the checkout is about to expire.

Kaa wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I think I'm going to have to pick up a hard copy of The Mere Wife from the library. I was hoping the ebook would come off hold before the buddy read but it's still saying two weeks. :..."

My library used to use Overdrive but they switched to Libby. Sometimes it still does come off hold sooner than expected because people return the books early (as I try to do since copies are so limited) but it's usually my experience that if anything, Libby's estimates are too long. The Stand has been telling me it would be ready in a few days since like Thursday.

It's making me crazy! Just give me the date the loan expires! lol

Sarah wrote: "Kaa wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I think I'm going to have to pick up a hard copy of The Mere Wife from the library. I was hoping the ebook would come off hold before the buddy read but it's still saying ..."

Ugh, that's annoying! I much prefer to be surprised when a book becomes available early than expecting to get it and then having to wait.

Kaa wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Kaa wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I think I'm going to have to pick up a hard copy of The Mere Wife from the library. I was hoping the ebook would come off hold before the buddy read but it's..."

Right! You'd think bookish people would understand out pain. lol. I guess I can't complain. Since I started using it again it's been a valuable resource.

I read & loved The Mere Wife last year with only the barest remembrance of a summary of Beowulf. Old epic poetry is not really my thing, but I picked up the illustrated version of Heaney's translation, & the captioned pictures of historical artifacts, plus the sorta-spoilery headings in the margins helped me through my reading. (Omg the anachronistic Christian commentaries were annoying.) My favorite parts were the elements that reminded me directly of bits of The Mere Wife, so I certainly want to reread that now & further appreciate Maria Dahvana Headley's awesomeness. :-)

Joelle wrote: "I read & loved The Mere Wife last year with only the barest remembrance of a summary of Beowulf. Old epic poetry is not really my thing, but I picked up the illustrated version of H..."

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