SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Some discussions here have got me thinking about why time travel stories disappoint me so often.

Specifically backward time travel, which allows for contradictions and temporal paradoxes. Whatever the mechanism for TT, it's frustrating when there are logical inconsistencies.

Are there models other than these three? And do you think most frustrating stories come from model #3?

1. Multiple timelines. If you modify the past, it affects a timeline other than your own. Reader frustration risk: very low. You might have trouble getting back to your future timeline, but you won't create a paradox.

2. One unchangeable timeline. You can go back, but you can't change anything. Reader frustration risk: pretty low. Whatever you do turns out to be a part of the inevitable future. The story can still mess that up, but at least there are no paradoxes.

3. One changeable timeline. When you change the past, it changes your own future timeline. Reader frustration risk: super-high. Prone to everything from minor contradictions to catastrophic space-time ruptures to outright silliness. Unfortunately, authors and screenwriters seem to especially love this model.

Related conversations:

Time Travel Books
Authors of TIME-TRAVEL books
Here and Now and Then" First Impressions

Andy wrote: "2. One unchangeable timeline. You can go back, but you can't change anything. Reader frustration risk: pretty low."

I’m the exact opposite. Unless it comes from a *spectacular* author, my frustration level with these stories is sky high. If you can’t change anything then there are no stakes. Bor-ring!

The version of this that I enjoy is where you discover things weren’t what you thought, so the unchangeable timeline is only true because you had limited information.

I'd add 1a Multiple timelines, end up in wrong one, but I think this is pretty astute!

All have high potential to piss me off though if it's not internally consistent. Time travel and ill-defined magic are two hand waves that I think many authors use (present company excluded!) to do something cool instead of something consistent and I want both! I want both all the time always!

This is maybe a variation on the unchangeable timeline model, but one that I saw recently and found interesting is the self-correcting universe model. It seems to be pretty rare - I can think of only the one book that I know uses it, although I feel as though I've encountered some parts of it previously.

In this model, when you go back in time, you can interact with objects and people but you can't make lasting changes. Within a certain amount or as soon as you are gone, things return to the way they were before. The people you interact with may forget that you were there and changes that were made as a result of your presence are undone.

I find the mechanism for this a little iffy, and depending on how completely/quickly things get reset you could still end up with the potential for paradox.

Kaa wrote: "This is maybe a variation on the unchangeable timeline model, but one that I saw recently and found interesting is the self-correcting universe model. It seems to be pretty rare - I can think of on..."

This sounds really cool, actually. I would read a book about this kind of time travel. What is the book, if you don't mind? :)

I also have a sort of love/hate relationship with time travel, cos it's probably one of the most recurring themes in science fiction, and one I find the least believable. I really have to suspend my disbelief to actually enjoy it (a bit like with magic) because let's face it, it's just not very realistic or plausible, and almost regardless of how it's presented or explained, it doesn't make much sense, and I end up annoyed.

That's not to say you can write great drama around it. I think I prefer stories where they avoid explaining any greater detail about how the mechanics work, but instead focus on the story. Connie Willis is a good example. It's never explained how they can time travel, where did they get the tech, or why the so called net simply won't let them go somewhere that might alter the future, it just is, and here we are, that's the setting, enjoy the ride.

On the other hand, I do also like stories where you can't go back and change things, and it makes for an extremely frustrating situation for the *character*. Vonda N. McIntyre's Star Trek novel The Entropy Effect is a good example of that.

I also really like a new spin on the old theme. Primer is a good film, but my favorite is the Spanish Timecrimes (I know, terrible title). Also ARC, which is on Netflix, was very original, and close to "realistic".

I don't necessarily need time travel to make logical sense cos I'm not sure it ever will, but I do need it to be used well.

Becky wrote: "Kaa wrote: "This is maybe a variation on the unchangeable timeline model, but one that I saw recently and found interesting is the self-correcting universe model..."

This sounds really cool, actually. I would read a book about this kind of time travel. What is the book, if you don't mind? :)"

(In spoilers just to be safe)(view spoiler)[The Citadel of Weeping Pearls - there's a lot of other things going on in the story as well, but this thread was one I found intriguing (hide spoiler)]

Oooh, what a coincidence, I'm already planning to wade into this series. Thanks, Kaa!

@Kaa Hehe, I recognized that description XD

Trike wrote: "If you can’t change anything then there are no stakes. Bor-ring!"

Dawn wrote: "I do also like stories where you can't go back and change things, and it makes for an extremely frustrating situation for the *character*."

I guess I like the #2 can't-change model because of the story challenge it creates.

Sometimes we think the characters are changing things, but later there's a twist and we (and they) realize: nope. All they did was make the inevitable future happen after all. The author can still easily screw it up, but if they pull it off, it's impressive.

Whereas in the changeable-past model, I can't think of an example where at the end I thought, "Yeah. That was fair. Everything lines up."

I favor and used both #1 and #3, but I agree that #3 can be tricky. One possible extra option (which I will call Option #4) would be when time travelers discover something about the past that was not known before but ended forming what we consider established history. One such potential scenario would be time travelers discovering that Atlantis really existed and disappeared below the sea milleniums ago. The time travelers would not change history by themselves but only observe something that was not known before. Another possible scenario would be for time travelers to discover that another time traveler managed to insert himself/herself in a historically significant position/role and succeeded in modifying the timeline but, since the later time travelers came from a time period already affected by the modification, those latter travelers never suspected that their history was changed in the past.

Whatever type of scenario an author uses for a time travel story, there is one thing that I believe is an absolute imperative for that author: study and research thoroughly the historical period targetted for the novel and then make sure that the details of the historical context (geography, geo-politics of the time, customs, languages, clothing, weapons, tools, food, etc.) are accurate and respect that historical period. There is nothing that I hate more than anachronisms in a time travel story (unless of course something was brought to the past by the time traveler(s)).

Allison wrote: "Time travel and ill-defined magic are two hand waves that I think many authors use (present company excluded!) to do something cool instead of something consistent and I want both!"

Interesting, I hadn't thought about the parallel to magic. I agree, both have the same risk.

Logically, magic (probably) isn't possible. And logically, reverse time travel (probably) isn't possible. I'm cool with that. I'll accept those as a conceit if they support a good story.

So I can forgive logical impracticality. Maybe we just can't understand yet how something is possible.

But I can't forgive logical inconsistency. With magic or TT, I'm thinking: "Hey, author. You made up the rules. But you need to convince me that you're clear about what your rules are, and you sure need to follow them."

What makes a good time travel story for me is putting a good spin on the trope. I.e. new clever ideas, or really twisted (if not quite new) idea.

What I'm tired of especially in movies and TV is the whole "I regret something in my past and now I get to try and fix it!" Complications then arise.

That is boring. It's like the most obvious thing to do with time travel, and therefore the worst thing to spend time and effort watching/reading. It typically turns into a really petty story.

Kaa wrote: "(In spoilers just to be safe)"

Thanks, Kaa. Added to my reading list. Self-healing time is a novel twist—it seems like #2 with a dash of destiny: the universe wants the timeline to be a certain way.

Exactly, Andy!

And Micah, I like that take, too, that's it's less the method of time travel and often the tropes used to get us into the story (or out again) that can make it tiresome.

The self-correcting or self-protecting time travel story isn’t uncommon, it just tends to be used for short stories rather than novels. Often to humorous effect.

Some other versions of TT: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...

(By clicking that link you agree to absolve Trike of any responsibility for the 3 hours you are about to lose.)

For those who have read a lot of TT books, can you comment on the best/most well-known books for each of the three listed models?

Ryan wrote: "For those who have read a lot of TT books, can you comment on the best/most well-known books for each of the three listed models?"

Well, for #1 multiple timelines there is the Larry Niven short story collection The Flight of the Horse where time travel is invented but because it’s impossible Svetz keeps going back in time to *fantasy* worlds.

Mammoth by John Varley is a combination platter of #2 and #3, but to explain how would be to spoil the story. But then Varley is the aforementioned spectacular writer who can pull such things off.

I hesitate to bring this one up because just knowing it is a possible spoiler, but the first Dragonriders of Pern novel, Dragonflight, is a changeable past TT story. Spoilers for the story: (view spoiler)[Lessa discovers dragons can teleport through time as well as space. Her first attempt takes her back to the day her home is invaded, but the watch-dragons don’t raise the alarm because they sense the queen dragon in the sky. That discovery eventually leads her to change both history and her entire planet. (hide spoiler)]

One of the best of all time travel books (IMO) is squarely in the #2 (nothing can change) category: Slaughterhouse-Five by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

... Or is it a time travel story at all? Upon thinking about it (from a Tralfamadorian perspective), I'd say it's really not a time travel story at all.

I have read a bunch of time travel books as I've been working my way through the "all time greats" lists of science fiction. I have discovered it as a genre I want to like but haven't found much to enjoy.

Basically, I think it is too often lazily used as a gimmick for putting the characters in peril rather than doing anything interesting with it. The most fun I had with a time travel novel was Fritz Leiber's "The Big Time." It's not a particularly excellent book, but the idea Leiber had of a vast war being waged across time in which the factions were sending people across time to destroy each other's plans was really awesome to me.

JW unfortunately our tools are clumsy, could you please remove the one part you asked us to remove? I can only remove the whole post. Thanks!

Allison wrote: "JW unfortunately our tools are clumsy, could you please remove the one part you asked us to remove? I can only remove the whole post. Thanks!"

Done.

thankee thankee!

The Big Time by Fritz Leiber for the easy link.

Bear in mind that there is a whole group here on GR devoted to TT, with several discussions along these lines. I don't want to take away from this thread or group, but those of us who are never satisfied belong to both! ;)

Cheryl wrote: "Bear in mind that there is a whole group here on GR devoted to TT, with several discussions along these lines. I don't..."

Thanks Cheryl, didn't know that. I'll check it out.

I have always loved time travel stories, no matter what "class" they fall into.

I especially love Connie Willis's "Oxford Time-Travel" books, starting with THE DOOMSDAY BOOK, and finishing up with BLACKOUT/ALL CLEAR. I know that some think that the latter two books were too long and had "unnecessary" baggage, but Ms. Willis's love and respect for the British people in "their finest hour" reflects my own, and I loved the research that she did about that period of crisis in the world.

It also falls into a "class" I don't think you mentioned--how the time-traveler him/herself is either part of the timeline, or how s/he is personally affected by traveling to that time.

Good point Mindy.