SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

A beta reader of mine has the idea that you should not put subtitles/subheadings when changing POVs, in her opinion they are jarring and interrupt the flow of a short story. So, in her opinion, I should find some other way of showing there is a POV change, like a sentence on location etc. to set the scene.

I think that a subtitle makes it clearer for the reader that the POV has changed. I just got the idea from the chapters on GOT.
What is your take on it? POV subtitles yay or nay?

I like subtitles or some kind of indication that POV is changed, or I get very confused sometimes. And it sure changes the story if I'm reading thinking it is a different POV than the author actually wrote.

I can't remember what the Game of Thrones chapters look like- an example might help.

Personally, I prefer subtitles. It's far more jarring for the reader to figure out a paragraph or two later they were reading a different POV. I've done that so many times. It's very frustrating.

I agree subtitles are effective, when a change in POV occurs. Some authors seem to ‘skip’ in their presentation, and so the reader becomes disoriented. This is an example, for me, of a need for a subtitle. However, better transitions really would be the better solution.

I prefer subtitles to other forms. I had one book I DNF'd where the author went for bold. NOPE. I like my eyes.

I believe that subtitles/subheadings are a good way to not only signal to the reader a change of POV, but also a change of venue or significant time/date change in a story, when the author wishes to advance the action by a few days/weeks/months or change the venue, like when the MC disembark from a plane. This saves both the author and the reader from having to spend pages on what would be otherwise insignificant details and drivel.

I prefer subtitles/subheadings as well. I read one book that went for different fonts (there were only 2), but that can be tricky because you have to go for different enough but still readable. This book went italics, which was hard to read in such large chunks.

I've read plenty of books where there was a - for example - subtitle when the POV changes and I like them. It can get confusing when there is no obvious shift and I've DNF some books because I had no clue who's POV it was half the time. Making the POV's distinctive from each other is important too though. They should feel like two separate characters. That also makes it easier to follow POV switches.

Chapter names work. Game of Thrones used names, Bran, Theon, etc., which made it absolutely clear. If the story is first person, the speaker's voice can signal the change. Location works, too.
Legend by Marie Lu used different fonts which reflected the two characters. A more traditional font for the one who was on the side of the establishment initially; a freer open font for the one who was not.

Leticia wrote: "A beta reader of mine has the idea that you should not put subtitles/subheadings when changing POVs, in her opinion they are jarring and interrupt the flow of a short story. So, in her opinion, I s..."

OK, for a "short story," I agree with your beta. A space break, for example, works better, and make it obvious. A long story, such as Game of Thrones, that's completely different.

That's just silly. Even just starting the section or the chapter with the name of the character doesn't wreck it for me--actually, it's great when it's in different chapters because chapters have numbers and often titles.

So, yes, subtitles in novels.

BUT a space break can also work well if it is CONSISTENT and never put in the middle of the same POV. Make the POV voices different--this his harder than people realize. One writer who totally failed to make the voices different was Veronica Roth in that third book of her series--without the subtitles the reader would have been lost. This is just one of several reasons the book was not nearly as good for people who like good writing, and why it's a good thing the movie series wasn't completed.

I don't think subtitles are the only thing you can rely on to make the POV switch obvious, they're good for warnings, but if they're the only tool that's being used to signify a POV change then something else is amiss. I think you might improve your story if you wrote it without the subtitles and then added them back once you've finished.

That said, I do think it's a bit much for a short story.

As a reader I find short/quick POV changes to be irritating and off putting, so I'm not really sure they belong in a short story at all. Obviously, that's my opinion and other's may vary.

If the transition is done well they aren’t necessary, but they are definitely handy. It does save space. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Everybody, thanks for the advice.
I think I will then keep the subtitles in most cases. I will also try to make the voices even more different and perhaps to drop some POVs when then don't contribute much to the story, but in some cases I can't because my stories have a lot going on in terms of plot.
What I might also do as all my beta-readers asked me is to increase the word count and make novellas of most of the short stories. They have enough plot to work as more than short stories so they probably shouldn't remain as such. ;-)

A consensus among betas is almost always a good thing. :)

Leticia wrote: "in her opinion they are jarring and interrupt the flow of a short story..."

Key words: "of a short story".

Frankly, I don't think short stories should have chapters or break titles unless it's absolutely necessary.

Even in my longer works, I section my work as follows:

Double space line break -- When there is a minor change in the time or place but the POV does not change.

Triple space line break with "***" centered on the second line -- When a POV change is made or there is a significant change of scene or passage of time that does not warrant a new chapter.

Chapter break -- When one subsection of the story has been wrapped up and a new one has begun. There could be a change in POV, locale, or time, but this is really determined by what I think of as plot modules: each chapter is a logical entity unto itself. This is the only time I might use a Title and/or subtitle.

For short stories I'd stick with the first two types of breaks, above, and not use tags for POV/place/time unless it was vital to the story structure.

Instead, I'd just make sure to be clear in the first paragraph or dialog tag who's speaking and/or where they are. I've read plenty of stories with frequent POV changes that don't spell it out and if it's written well enough, I have no problem figuring out what's going on.

It's like in movies, scene shifts are frequent and expected. You only get "Paris, September 1944" or the like when it's important to the story.

Micah wrote: "It's like in movies, scene shifts are frequent and expected. You only get "Paris, September 1944" or the like when it's important to the story."

If you show the Eiffel Tower and WWII outfits, you don’t need the super. It becomes redundant. Sometimes the belt-and-suspenders approach is good, but one does run the risk of annoying readers.

A novel's characters should be real & individual enough that a textual clue is unnecessary. A novel's plot should be immersive enough that a textual clue is not disruptive.

A short story seldom survives a shifting pov. If you decide that's the only way to tell the story, do give us a subtle clue. *Not* a font change, and probably not a subtitle, but perhaps a reference to where we lost saw that character or whom we saw them with.

Leticia wrote: "Everybody, thanks for the advice.
I think I will then keep the subtitles in most cases. I will also try to make the voices even more different and perhaps to drop some POVs when then don't contrib..."

A great book to read is The Secret Life of Pronouns: What Our Words Say About Us even though it's not directly about writing voice--it is helpful with age and gender and other things we don't usually think about.

Thanks for the tips! I'll think about it and check the book too!

M.L. wrote: "A consensus among betas is almost always a good thing. :)"

Indeed, I'm so happy that all my beta readers think my short stories should be longer, I'll probably expend the next decade developing all stories LOL

I just finished the short story anthology SNAFU: An Anthology of Military Horror and three of the stories employ different ways to indicate POV change.

One uses dates (July 13, 1969, & etc.), another uses dates and location titles, while the third merely has three asterisks (***) between POVs, but each of the four characters are distinctive enough that a name or description is enough to immediately distinguish between them.

Ty Trike, that is good data for this discussion.

I use *** perspective jumps and extra spacing between paragraphs for time jumps (if you go to sleep and wake within the same chapter).
But it's really not a big deal what you use. What's important is that the reader is able to easily understand your intention.