Hugo & Nebula Awards: Best Novels discussion

Group Read #33

Wow, I get to give the first spoiler comment!

I just wanted to say I'm at the part where they make a computer from 30 million people and it's the best thing in the entire world!

Bryan wrote: "I just wanted to say I'm at the part where they make a computer from 30 million people and it's the best thing in the entire world!"

Yes, it was cool, even if some characteristics of that machine were based on real-life PC and not exactly on creators' needs

That was one aspect of the book that stretched believability - even with the aid of modern technology (which would defeat the point) I don't think it would be possible to organize that many people to produce reliable calculations. Is this even theoretically possible?

Ryan wrote: "Is this even theoretically possible? "

Theoretically - yes, especially if those are not people ;) however, it is a feasible way - I doubt it

Just saw this news - TV series based on the book https://io9.gizmodo.com/netflix-steal...

A great book, although I was a bit disappointed with the "sophons". They were a bit too magic-like for my tastes. Seems like if the Trisolarians can create godtech like that, they could solve their problems in the home system as well: envelope the suns with the proton material to control their luminosity, drop a charged black hole into one of them and propel it away to turn the system into easily-solved two-body problem, or something.

Oleksandr wrote: "Just saw this news - TV series based on the book https://io9.gizmodo.com/netflix-steal..."

The story you linked actually talks about a movie based on a completely different short story by Liu Cixin.

Antti wrote: "The story you linked actually talks about a movie based on a completely different short story by Liu Cixin. "

True, I found it a bit later but was lazy to edit!

re Sophons I agree that they are an overkill and their creation sounds wrong - lets assume that you can put 3D atom into 2D - it has no depth to have a process like microchip creation (which adds a layer thus creating depth) and there is a problem of divisibility - our universe consists of chunks that cannot be divided further - irrespectably to the number of dimensions

I'm in the middle where they are making a "pyramid" of Chinese soldiers which is pretty cool

So I finished this book this past weekend. I enjoyed it, but didn't get into it until the last third or so.

I wrote off the human computer idea as a mistranslation- not from the Chinese, but that the authors of the three-body game misunderstood something from the Trisolaran transimissions that they used to found the game.

The sophons just didn't seem to fit, and I'm hoping they're relied on a bit less in the further novels.

I find it interesting that I've disliked a number of the recent novels until about halfway through or so. I guess I don't have the patience for the world-building, though I appreciate it once I get into the world.

Yeah, sophons bothered me too. They're an interesting plot device, and I enjoyed the description of the "science" they're based on, but they are farfetched and seem like magic. It seems like they'll continue to be important in the sequels, if the next starts off where this book left off.

Rebecca, that's a very high star rating given that you didn't get into it until the last third!

Some random thoughts...

I worked in health physics and really loved a sci-fi book I could sink my teeth into - I still work in science (at a Synchrotron) so there's plenty of accelerator chat in my everyday life.

We often hear about the three body problem framed as shooting an already launched missile out of the sky - seeing the problem as receiving signals from behind/beyond the sun - the new point of view made an old possibly unsolvable problem more relevant to me.

The jump from hard sci in the scifi was a bit jarring for me - re the sophons, but then again you know they say about quantum mechanics/string theory - if you think you understand it you don't. I suppose unfolding a photon could happen but then etching it like a circuit? Just a leap too far after the solid physics for me!

Don't you just hate it when you're cruising along reading a story (like a happy little electron) and the end of the story hits you (like running into a positron) and there's no story ending, no lead into the next book, just leaving you with nothing but a bit of excess energy (like a gamma ray left-over from the annihilation event)? Damn, not often I get to use particle physics as an analogy!!

Much of what was written made sense (I think?), at least for someone whose background is much more physiology than physics. But I did wonder if/when the author began to move from real to fictional science. I started to lose the thread a little at etching onto a 2D surface - ultimately though, it is a piece of fiction, and I didn't have to suspend my disbelief too much, so no major complaints from me.

I actually found the cultural nuances just as interesting as the hard sci-fi component. My diet usually comprises North American authors, with an occasional side of Europe - so this one read a little differently for me. It was thought-provoking to see 'the west' from another point of view - instead of simply a western writer's interpretation of how the east might view us. And maybe it's simply a reflection of the author's or translator's skill, but the scenes depicted from the time of the cultural revolution were startling to say the least.

Anyway, I'll be signing up for the completionist challenge come June - looking forward to the rest of this trilogy!

Jeanette, I know nothing about physics, nor have I finished the book yet, but I LOVE your physics talk. Make me another analogy as soon as you can!

Victor wrote: "I actually found the cultural nuances just as interesting as the hard sci-fi component. My diet usually comprises North American authors, with an occasional side of Europe - so this one read a little differently for me. It was thought-provoking to see 'the west' from another point of view "

I'm reading Wind-Up Girl for the Earth Day challenge and the obvious racism between the Malay and the Thai and the loathing both have for the yang guizi / farang is all new territory for me. I'm learning racism in many cultures.

Jeanette wrote: "I'm reading Wind-Up Girl for the Earth Day challenge and the obvious racism between the Malay and the Thai and the loathing both have for the yang guizi / farang is all new territory for me. I'm learning racism in many cultures. "

Agreed, it is interesting (albeit depressing) to see this. There are some quite shocking scenes in the book. I also advise to read two tie-in short stories.

If you're reading Windup Girl, you should definitely read at least "The Calorie Man" short story. It fills in lots of details about the state of the world. I kinda wish I had read Calorie Man prior to reading WG.

I'm 88% through 3Body, and I just ran across a review of one of Cixin's short stories by a GR friend not in this group.

Devourer
by Liu Cixin (Goodreads Author), Holger Nahm (Translator), Malice Bathory (Illustrator)
22056219
XXXXX's review May 20, 2019
it was ok

This short story pretty much exemplifies both the merits and the faults of Liu Cixin's better-known trilogy (starting with the The Three-Body Problem); if you read this first there's really no need to subject yourself to those three long-drawn-out books.

The merits are originality and ruthlessness; the faults - frequent disregard of physics while paying a good deal of lip service to it, blatant sexism, stilted characterization, forced representation of the humanity via the very few unreasonably heroic heroes, that same ruthlessness in another light...

And having read both the trilogy and this short story, I'm left with the impression that Liu Cixin has nothing else to offer, so I stop right here.

Makes me feel a bit better about not liking this book too much.

Kateblue wrote: " the faults - frequent disregard of physics while paying a good deal of lip service to it, blatant sexism, stilted characterization, forced representation of the humanity via the very few unreasonably heroic heroes, that same ruthlessness in another light..."

All of this gives it old SF feel :)

I don't really see the sexism. The book is set in a sexist culture, but the author doesn't seem to approve.

After all, the other main character, Ye Wenjue, is a woman, and she is by far the most three-dimensional character in the book.

Antti wrote: "I don't really see the sexism. The book is set in a sexist culture, but the author doesn't seem to approve."

Ok, not sexism per se, but there are clearly expectations depending on gender and the author is ambivalent - he doesn't highlight it, it is more like background. and this is like old SF, take Foundation (a great book, heavily influential) - it mentions women twice, once a secretary and once a wife of some noble. It wasn't a statement by Asimov, moreover, I'd most likely missed it if haven't read about it in comments here on GR.

I am done with it now.

One problem with me and this book is that I took a year to read it. So I picked it up in the middle, basically, for this month's read.

But still, I was more interested in the Triasolarian parts than the Earth parts. Plus, when I started again, I had trouble remember who was who in the Earth parts.

I liked the sophon part, but then I'm a fantasy reader from WAY back, and I know so little about physics it seems like magic to me anyway, so it could be just fun for me.

BTW, I didn't have a problem with any sexism (even though my friend who posted the review did) because I figured that was cultural, right? Of course, I'm older, so maybe I just don't notice it as much as some.

I probably won't do the challenge, but we'll see what else I have to read . . .

And I forgot to say, what an non-ending. Even if there's a trilogy, each book should have a somewhat satisfying ending. Better than that. It felt like it just petered out.

I mean, ok, what's-her-name gets to destroy the world, she thinks. Still not a good ending, probably also do to the understated (IMO) writing. Not encouraged to continue by that ending . . .

Ryan wrote: "Rebecca, that's a very high star rating given that you didn't get into it until the last third! .."

So I thought I'd given it 4 stars, not five. Be fixing that momentarily :) My personal rating system is 5 stars I evangelize for (how many copies of Good Omens can a person give away in their lifetime?) 1 star I advocate against, or DNF due to something objectionable (including the writing) 4 starts I'd recommend, two stars I'd recommend against. I'd recommend this one, though possibly with the caveat that it took a bit to get into. . . at the same time, its not one that I had to force myself to complete. Excuse me while I read the next ten pages of Nova express ::sigh::

Man I cannot read any of those spoiler comments you lot keep churning out! Gotta find the time to read it and join the discussion!

I agree generally with the comments. It had a very Clarke-ian feel for me up till the sophons, when it just got a little too far out (no pun intended). liked getting a glimpse of recent Chinese culture. I'm not sure I'll take up the Completion challenge, but we'll see.

Allan wrote: " liked getting a glimpse of recent Chinese culture. I'm not sure I'll take up the Completion challenge,"

Go for it, the second book has a commissar, that's recent Chinese culture

So I read this late last year; had bought it to read on an epic plane journey (40h door to door!) and ended up reading it afterwards. I worked with a lot of Chinese engineering researchers last year, and they were very proud to have an author that they enjoyed and who was making waves.

I have to admit, though, that I was under-whelmed by this book. I felt like there was a whole section missing in the middle, with little transition; when it came to the gun fight it just felt contrived and rushed, and didn't really seem to follow with what came before nor what comes after.

I was also disappointed by the writing, but understanding more about the complexity of chinese-english translations, I'll give the author the benefit of doubt.

It just felt unfinished, like an advance copy for an editor. We could have had a whole book in the middle, met some of the different factions, some protagonists from them, a bit more background on their development and how their work and positions led to that gunfight..

I did enjoy the Sophons doing their 2D printing, it seemed quite Alice-in-Wonderland - but it didn't really contribute to the plot.

Altogether, I think I could enjoy this as a movie with as it would have to be, of necessity, much briefer and more coherent.

Harmony wrote: "I was also disappointed by the writing, but understanding more about the complexity of chinese-english translations, I'll give the author the benefit of doubt.."

I guess it was not a problem of translation but of a different culture of what to write about. For example, I guess the start with Red Guards is more if not poetic, at least 'a painting in writing'. At the same time secondary characters are awfully two-dimensional (again like a picture)

Harmony wrote: "I felt like there was a whole section missing in the middle, with little transition; when it came to the gun fight it just felt contrived and rushed, and didn't really seem to follow with what came before nor what comes after."

Yes, very much agree. The 3body game was described in such a long and loving detail, the change in pace came as a surprise, and not an especially appreciated one. Now that I think about it, the pacing in all three books seems a bit off. It seems like the author wrote a beginning and an ending to the books first, and then filled the bits in the middle.

It looks like I must have joined this group shortly after you read this because I actually did read it last year, but later on. I loved it. I don't know a lot about physics so it all sounded pretty magical to me. I have no idea which parts are more plausible than others.

I have heard other people describe it as sexist too. I don't really see it, honestly. I feel like I'm generally pretty critically conscious of sexism and misogyny. Not that I don't still miss things sometimes...and I don't want to doubt those who say they saw it in this book. But I didn't notice anything particularly egregious. It makes me want to reread and try to look for it.

I liked the first one but I found the second one a bit of a slog, maybe because I listened to the long audio book. Haven't taken up the third, though I do want to finish out the trilogy.

Kristenelle wrote: "It makes me want to reread and try to look for it."

Actually, I don't think there is anything that could make me want to reread this book :-)

Overall I think a lot of it was lost in translation and cultural background. The story felt convoluted, characters bland, the universe unnecessarily complex and the message all over the place. The author can really write and set up an atmosphere but it wasn't enough for me.

I know that Japanese storytelling doesn't translate well, no matter which format. Maybe that is the case here.

Kateblue wrote: "Kristenelle wrote: "It makes me want to reread and try to look for it."

Actually, I don't think there is anything that could make me want to reread this book :-)"

Well, I still have the rest of the trilogy to finish. Hopefully that will suffice. :)