Reading Envy Readers discussion

Here is discussion from part 3. Are you on track?

I loved Part Three. My overall opinion of Scarlett improved. She is still a conniver but time after time she took charge of the difficult situations she found herself in. I liked the epiphany she has at the end of Chapter 34 while on her way back to Tara.

How shocking was the scene where she killed the Yankee cavalryman? Wow. And she rolled up her sleeves and performed hard manual labor for the first time in her life. She did whatever had to be done to save Tara, literally, considering what she went through fighting the fire.

Her interaction with Rhett is really odd to me. She is fascinated with him but since he sees right through her, almost to the point of reading her mind, and she hates him for it. She is obsessed with wanting to “show him”. It’s funny how their meetings end up. She’s still a terrible mom. Poor Wade.

Jeff wrote: "She did whatever had to be done to save Tara."

And this was what made the first half of this part engaging for me. After the war was over, Scarlett stopped being... /sigh

I liked this part the best so far.
When Rhett sends Scarlett to drive the wagon home, up to the point where we learn the war is over, I felt quite engaged. I was starting to believe that perhaps Scarlett was beginning to grow. And then... I should have known better to think Scarlett was going to change. I immediately uprooted my empathy, and went back to appreciating Scarlett for her juvenile selfishness, which of course can be fully attributed to society, the same society her attitudes are crashing against.

It was fun to see The Wonderful Wizard of Oz and Robinson Crusoe referenced in this part.

The racism is bad in this part, Mammy’s face is compared to a monkey, that’s just so incredibly distasteful ☹️

I liked part 3, things happen and Scarlett does stuff, it’s quite a moment when she realises there’s no one to help her and she has to look after herself and others. The scenes with Rhett are fantastic, so overly dramatic on her part and so mocking on his. But Scarlett still shows so little compassion for the others especially Melanie that’s it’s hard to feel sorry for her. And poor Wade, it’s a wonder he has lived this long.

I just watched the American Masters biography of Margaret Mitchell. She said that she wrote the novel about "people that had gumption and those that did not".
I recommend this program...I did not realize that MM was such a rebel....she founded the Rebel Debutantes and was one of Georgia's 1st female reporters.

Jeff wrote: "How shocking was the scene where she killed the Yankee cavalryman? Wow. And she rolled up her sleeves and performed hard manual labor for the first time in her life. She did whatever had to be done to save Tara, literally, considering what she went through fighting the fire. ."

It's interesting because she bemoans how her mother didn't prepare her for this. But you see her mother running Tara, caring for sick people, laboring, responding to all the whiners, and never losing her poise. So she at least had a great model. And Scarlett at least understands she needs to step up; her sisters are frustrating me to no end (we're sad, you can't expect us to do manual labor, etc.)

I have two younger sisters and I've seen this same behavior in the context of grief though, the desire to be cared for, to not have to "take care of anything." And when someone has to, well, the oldest daughter is often taking the majority of that burden, especially when the mother is gone.

Casey wrote: "I liked this part the best so far.
When Rhett sends Scarlett to drive the wagon home, up to the point where we learn the war is over, I felt quite engaged. I was starting to believe that perhaps Sc..."

Now that you're at the end of part 3, you can say Scarlett hasn't changed? Are we reading different novels?

Shatterlings wrote: "I liked part 3, things happen and Scarlett does stuff, it’s quite a moment when she realises there’s no one to help her and she has to look after herself and others. The scenes with Rhett are fanta..."

Poor Wade indeed.

Gail wrote: "I just watched the American Masters biography of Margaret Mitchell. She said that she wrote the novel about "people that had gumption and those that did not".
I recommend this program...I did not r..."

I do like the word gumption!

This section was SO long and even though I read some almost every day I still felt I'd never finish, but still found myself choosing it over other books. From fleeing Atlanta to the tension up to Tara, to the constant fear of soldiers, to having to feed/care for every straggling soldier after that, knowing you are giving away food and supplies YOU NEED, wow it is just unimaginable.

At one point Scarlett is discussing the women with someone else, wondering what will happen to this entire generation with no men, and there starts to be this nostalgic memorial tone... it made me wonder, is this what created the eternal south, the confederate identity, this identity that people still own and cling to? Or is that a sexist thing to think, that this is a "female" response?

And I wonder how the next generation of men fared, the generation that could never be what the previous generation was....

And I thought what a luxury it is to be gentleman....

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "This section was SO long and even though I read some almost every day I still felt I'd never finish, but still found myself choosing it over other books. From fleeing Atlanta to the tension up to T..."

I had similar feelings about this section. Glad to have read it and glad it's over. I was exhausted just reading about what they went through.

I read somewhere that it was women who were behind the movement to create Confederate monuments in the South. It was probably a newspaper article during last year's frenzy about monuments. It's what I thought about when I read this passage in Chapter 25:

"Throughout the South for fifty years there would be bitter-eyed women who looked backward, to dead times, to dead men, evoking memories that hurt and were futile, bearing poverty with bitter pride because they had those memories."

The losers of war don't often get to memorialize their dead in public ways so it is curious that there are so many Confederate monuments. I wonder how northerners responded to them (when they knew about them going up).

There is a HUGE monument to Confederate POW dead in a Chicago cemetery that blew my mind when I saw it. We were there to visit Ida B. Wells's grave and just visit the place because it is old by Illinois standards. Here's a link: https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/nationa...

Chris wrote: "I read somewhere that it was women who were behind the movement to create Confederate monuments in the South."

Oh my gosh anyone who has ever been to Richmond, VA probably has been down that road with monuments every block, it's really astounding.

We learned during one of our cemetery tours in Beaufort, SC, about how to identify which side a soldier was on. This site gives similar information. Of course whether or not a confederate grave ended up with a stone has a lot to do with where the burial occurred.

Of course, four years after it was finally, just removed from the state house, members of the SC Secessionist Party still raise the confederate flag once a year.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: ""Now that you're at the end of part 3, you can say Scarlett hasn't changed? Are we reading different novels?

No, we're reading the same novel, we're just different readers :)
Every time I think Scarlett has changed, she almost "always" proves me wrong.

Are you seeing a lot of change happening?

Casey wrote: "Are you seeing a lot of change happening? ."
Yes. Are you focusing more on internal or external? I guess the biggest difference to me is that she is surrounded by moorless weakness and people who haven't grown to step up to the challenge - her sisters, Miss P, she even thinks to herself about how Ashley's wife will never realize she is mooching. Ha!

I don't think she's a saint or anything, but I think she's really stepped up to huge challenges of feeding a group of people, of prioritizing and directing - really she has become a leader, and she definitely hasn't been socialized or trained to be, which makes it even more astounding to me.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Casey wrote: "Are you seeing a lot of change happening? ."
Yes. Are you focusing more on internal or external? I guess the biggest difference to me is that she is surrounded by moorless weakness an..."

I tend to focus more on the internal while trying to keep in mind that she is still a girl, in a horrible environment, and the product of her societal norms... But for me, she just comes off as so inauthentic that it's difficult for me to cultivate a sense of empathy when she is so eager and willing and quick to manipulate for her own capricious whims.
But, I haven't given up on Scarlett, not yet :)

As others said I couldn't stop reading Part 3! So much happened and the writing really puts us in the thick of Scarlett's situation. Scarlett's hard headiness comes through and she will do anything to save Tara. Tara is who she was. What she wants back.

"The war which had seemed so endless, the war which unhidden and unwanted had cut her life in two, had made so clean a cleavage that it was difficult to remember those other care-free days. She could look back, unmoved, at the pretty Scarlet with her fragile green morocco slippers and her flounces fragrant with lavender but she wondered if she could be the same girl. Scarlett O'Hara with the County ar her feet, a hundred slaves to do her bidding the wealth of Tara like a wall behind her and doting parents anxious to grant any desire of her heart. Spoiled. careless Scarlett.....Somewhere in the long road that wound through those four years the girl with her sachet and dancing slippers had slipped away and there was left a woman with sharp green eyes who counted pennies and turned her hands to many a menial task a woman to whom nothin left from the wreckage except the indestructible red earth on which she stood."

As you said, Jenny, she complained that her Mother never taught her these tasks. If only she watched and saw all her mother did and not self indulgent. But she pulled herself up and pick cotton, defended her home and guided all to work.

This is where I have really gotten into the book. Felt that the first two parts were really kind of tedious, but I think they were really there to set up the rest of the book.

So good!

I’ve fallen bit behind and am still reading part 3. I am trying to fit the audio in where I can. Now that the plot has become more engaging, I can’t see to find time to listen. First world problems.

I am now totally in love with this book and think it’s going to be amongst my all-time favourite reads. You always pick such great books for your readalongs Jenny. It’s a wonderful portrayal of a flawed (and aren’t we all) woman and I’m filled with love and admiration for Scarlett whilst also disliking parts of her character. I love the way she’s finally starting to grow close to Melanie, although she still regards her as a burden and yet another mouth to feed. What will happen now that Ashley’s home? I must read on! I have to say though, I have found the racism disturbing and have to keep reminding myself of the time in which it’s set.
On another note, it strikes me that the war is a relatively recent (in terms of the British idea of history at least) occurrence and I wondered how healed those divisions really are today. I’d be interested to know opinions from those living in the U.S.

Fiona wrote: "I am now totally in love with this book and think it’s going to be amongst my all-time favourite reads. You always pick such great books for your readalongs Jenny. It’s a wonderful portrayal of a f..."

I've been impressed at how good it is Fiona! Once I finished I had several occasions where I mentioned to someone that I read it and their face lit up and I had several long conversations about the book and movie! Interestingly, two of those readers who love the book are African American, one who grew up in South Carolina and one who grew up in New York.

Here in the south, well, you are right that this war is very recent. I had no idea until moving here. I talk about this a little bit on the podcast discussion that will come out soon. I live in the reddest part of the reddest state, and work at an institution named after the man who wrote the documents of secession. Doh! At my institution (still predominantly white) we have been very intentional in very recent years in directly addressing the histories of segregation and slavery in a project we call Seeking Abraham. Check out the FAQ at the bottom of the page to see some of the most frequent criticisms that I see as thinly veiled racism. If you understand my institution as a microcosm and compare us with some of the larger institutions within a five mile radius, Clemson University (45 minutes away) is still struggling with history/legacy vs. racism in the names of its buildings, and the Chancellor at University of North Carolina Chapel Hill had to step down after authorizing the removal of confederate statues on campus.

And heck, in the time I've lived here, they still flew the confederate flag at the state house until pressured to finally remove it after a white supremacist slaughtered nine church goers inside their church in Charleston.

I guess it's all perspective, right. One might see this news and take away "the south is racist" but to me it has so much energy to it, so much final straw, we-aren't-going-to hide-racism-under-legacy-anymore momentum. But I must admit that when they had a klan/white supremacy rally in Charlottesville, I held my breath. There is no reason it couldn't have been my town. There is a store 10 miles north of me that sells racist propaganda and confederate flags, but up until a few years, so did Walmart...

But I definitely learned in the last presidential election that for every step of progress, there is a backlash to that progress.

I feel I've already said too much, but I will add that you can still see plantation houses in the south, and some of them talk about slavery. But then those become popular places for rich white people to get married and NO JOKE one of the music majors I worked with had some of her wedding photos in front of slave cabins and I couldn't believe people had become so desensitized to it. But they are.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I feel I've already said too much, but I will add that you can still see plantation houses in the south, and some of them talk about slavery. But then those become popular places for rich white people to get married and NO JOKE one of the music majors I worked with had some of her wedding photos in front of slave cabins and I couldn't believe people had become so desensitized to it. But they are. ."

I find this all very interesting, having no idea what it is like in the South, except for what has been reported on TV in recent years about the flag and statues. Being way up North I still see confederate flag bumper stickers, hats, shirts, etc. And every once in a while a flag. A person in our neighborhood had a confederate flag hung on his garage for a couple years. I never did talk to the guy to find out what his story was.

Gosh Jenny, that really is all fascinating. Having never been to the South I had no idea that the Klan and confederacy were still such an issue for some people. It seems hard to believe, somehow. I guess it just shows how very far we still have to travel before there really is true equality. Even in the U.K. we are still seeing a polarisation of politics, splitting the country from Left to Right, particularly over the issue of immigration. But to have that historical aspect as you do where you live must add another dimension to the debate.

Fiona wrote: "Gosh Jenny, that really is all fascinating. Having never been to the South I had no idea that the Klan and confederacy were still such an issue for some people. It seems hard to believe, somehow. I..."

Some of the events have been chilling but I think the white supremacist rally in Charlottesville was the one that really got me down to my bones.

I think southern politics has split along urban (liberal/progressive) and rural (evangelical conservative) lines in many states. Definitely true in Georgia, where I used to live. The divide is so pronounced it's like living in an alternate universe sometimes.