Support for Indie Authors discussion

I am interested in getting a proofreader for my nonfiction book which is about 75,000 words.

There are proofreaders on freelance websites such as fiverr which charge only $120 for a book of any length, and they claim to manually review the book, and they have hundreds of favorable reviews.

Needless to say, this seems highly dubious. One would think this would require at least 2-3 days of work, so why would anyone of quality work for so little? I assume they just run your book through grammarly and clean up the results manually and send them to you.

That being said, "pro" proofreaders on the same websites charge $120 for only 600 words, so it would cost $15,000 to proofread the book.

Is a "professional" proofreader actually that much better? Any suggestions for affordable proofreading of reasonable quality (not necessarily done by a "professional"?

I do my own proofreading. It's easy and it's free.

Hi Brandon, I agree that some proofreading you can do yourself. I love Grammarly but it does not catch everything. Another tool I use is Microsoft Word's 'Read Aloud' which catches those pesky issues we don't because we've looked at a manuscript so many times. With that said, after I do my checking, I use an editor for proofreading. I can't remember the exact cost but it was around $300. She found issues I had missed and she flagged other issues as well. Very much worth the cost. Hope that helps.

It's a discomfort known to many. I proofread my own work (many times, in fact) but something always seems to avoid my attention. It's too easy to miss. Having read my own words so many times, it's easy to gloss over an error because I "already know what the next word will be" and even if there's a mistake, I could mentally "fix" it but not actually notice it.

The technique I'll suggest will force improper spelling to the surface but won't likely reveal grammar/usage errors...

Read your book backwards. Yes, word by word. It's unbelievably tedious, but effective (for me).

Once I'm done, my books might still have a spelling error or two, but that's due to my attempt to proofread all in single sitting. At 100k+ words, that's a foolish mistake purely born of hubris and lack of sleep (with the predictable result: failed attentiveness). Still, applied properly, it works. It leaves much less for a proofreader, or perhaps Grammarly, to find.

Dwayne wrote: "I do my own proofreading. It's easy and it's free."

I second this. I proofread and edited my entire 130,000 word book all by myself and I've received several compliments from neutral reviewers on the quality of the writing. If you possess a halfway decent command of the English language, you really shouldn't need a proofreader.

Peter wrote: "If you possess a halfway decent command of the English language, you really shouldn't need a proofreader."

I am supposedly somewhere around B1-B2 level (good for someone pretty much from Eastern Europe) but I am not sure it's enough for book-level proofreading made by myself, mostly because I am prone to overlooking the small issues.
It's something I'll have to think about a lot when the time comes.

Hi Brandon,

You can get good proofreading for a decent price, maybe about four times that rock-bottom price. Really high per word price is usually for short pieces, like corporate documents and marketing. You want a proofreader who does book-length manuscripts.

The trick is how to find professional book proofreaders. Those online job sites can be hard to wade through. Here are a few suggestions:

- There are some groups on Goodreads where you can find editors and proofreaders who have posted their services. There are other sites that have an author services board, like kboards.

- Do a member search on a professional organization site like the Editorial Freelancers Association (EFA). There are some editors who also offer proofreading.

- An online search for freelance book proofreaders. Most professionals will have a website.

One more tip is to make sure what you really want is proofreading and not copyediting.

Good luck!
Katherine (editor/proofreader)

I used to do all of my editing myself, which involved a lot of reading over and over, then techniques like reading aloud. I think I caught most issues that way, but there were often a couple of things that would slip through the net.

Nowadays I use a professional editor for copy-editing, though I haven't ever paid for proofreading. Once I have the manuscript back from the copy-editor I read it on my kindle- where the different page size, and the way it puts me into a "reader" mindset rather than a "writer" mindset, often helps me spot any small changes that need to be made. Aside from that, I get my husband and a couple of friends to give the book a read-through. I feel like this method works quite well for me.

Unfortunately I don't have any specific advice about finding a proofreader, but I will say that I've loved working with a professional copy-editor on my last couple of books and I've learnt a lot from her comments as well, so if you are able to set aside a bit of money for professional editing, it can be really helpful.

To the question is it worth it? It depends on each author. Ideally, for proofing you should already know how to proof (but are just looking for a fresh set of eyes to pick up things that might have been missed), otherwise, you won't know if whoever is proofing/editing is doing it right. I've seen edited/proofed works that have mistakes. (There are levels of understanding.)

Reading your MS on another device like a Kindle or iPad gives a fresh look.

Brandon wrote: "I am interested in getting a proofreader for my nonfiction book which is about 75,000 words.

There are proofreaders on freelance websites such as fiverr which charge only $120 for a book of any le..."

My goodness. $15,000 is way too much for a proofread. There are plenty of professional editors who charge reasonable prices (around .006/word) for a manuscript. I had a good experience with my proofer on my current book. If you're looking for someone, I can tell you who I used. PM me. I like to use a proofreader because they not only look for typos/misspellings, but they also catch misused words as well as grammar & punctuation mistakes.

I'll add my 2 cents here. Proofreading is finding things like punctuation errors, tense issues, etc. Most of the at you can use a program like Grammerly or ProWriting Aid. Copy editing is finding a lot of errors such as pronoun and tense issues, timeline problems, name or person inspecificty, eye and hair color problems, sentence structure, etc. That will cost around $100 per 10k words. Or $1000 for a book of 100,000 words. It simply worth the price.

If you don't have the money, some will break it down into monthly chunks. Check Goodreads for growth u ps like the beta readers, Fivver, Upwork Reedsy. Prices do.vary. but the price I quoted is fairly standard. Let them do a 5k word edit to see if they do what you want. If you message me I can give you the names of two that I use.

Thank you all for the input.

I suppose many of you think that editing software is actually worthwhile, though imperfect, so I will look into this. I and several others have read the manuscript, so I really just want proofreading (and not another editing service) to make sure I am putting out a professional looking product.

I suppose I would be willing to spend $1,000 on quality proofreading, but my fear is that the proofreader would only find 5 typos and miss another 5, barely improving the quality of the book for a hefty price.

I actually paid for professional copy/line-editing for the first chapter a long time ago, and I found their input to be definitively less helpful than one of my beta readers. Therein lies my [perhaps foolish] skepticism of professionals.

Katherine wrote: "Hi Brandon,

You can get good proofreading for a decent price, maybe about four times that rock-bottom price. Really high per word price is usually for short pieces, like corporate documents and ma..."

Katherine, thanks for the reminder about the EFA. My editor is a member of that group.

I've found it's almost impossible to catch 100% of the errors in a manuscript. For my clients, I use Grammarly, Spell Check in MS Word and read the manuscript aloud myself. Even after all of that, I will send it to a professional proofreader to get another set of eyes on it. I've had good success with Fiverr. Stay away from the ones that say they will proofread anything in one day. I will reach out to a seller with a direct message and ask for a special quote after doing the due diligence on their reviews.

You should proofread and read out loud, then hire a professional editor to do it as well. I have to differ with other opinions, I believe releasing a book without a second or third person reading and correcting is a big mistake.

Like Dwayne, I edit my own work, although I have had others look t it. You will never get it mistake-free, but then again neither do commercial publishers. You just have to do your best. Leaving aside things like spelling and typos, which usually get caught by a spell-check, and assuming you can pick up the words that are actually words but the wrong words, I think that the biggest danger with editors is they try to change your style. They offer a "better" way to say something. Sometimes it is worth considering, but be very careful; you don't lose your "voice", particularly if you have a distinctive one. I have been told my writing has an unusually high fraction of verbs, and a corresponding low one of adjectives. Sometimes it is worth trying to correct this sort of thing, but in my example it costs pace. You have to be sure you know what you are doing. I also object to the "grammar police", many of whom completely fail on subjunctives.

I'm fine doing the whole thing. :) But it's really what each person is comfortable doing. If someone feels like they need help, then it's best to find help, and especially if he/she has never had feedback or written something and published.

Elliot wrote: "but be very careful; you don't lose your "voice", particularly if you have a distinctive one...."

Completely agree.

I find this can come from editors who have not necessarily read a diversity of styles and who only know mainstream mass marketing books. For example, if someone has never read Georgian or perhaps Elizabethan literature and you wrote in a similar fashion, they might think you cannot even write proper English. The best thing to do is to see what style they have edited before, if possible, just to make sure they understand what you are doing.

I have had people think my first language was not even English, thus refuse to read the book further than where they stopped. They were not use to the style of my writing, which often follows in the shadows of nonsense literature.

Proper audience is key.

As a professional editor and proofreader, I would just like to add that a professional should not alter your voice. True, we can advise on sentence flow and structure, but an editor's job is not to rewrite a manuscript - it's the author's story, not the editor's. Suggestions can be given if a sentence or phrasing really needs attention, but this should be done sparingly and never in a way that dictates something should be changed.
Learning this skill and knowing when to leave alone is part of becoming an editor and is the difference between a professional editor and someone who has had no training. Spotting a few typos is not enough.
I also agree with the comments above that you should avoid those who claim they can proofread a novel in a day. Proofreading is checking the story at a word and letter level, and involves reading text very slowly. It isn't about the story at this point but the text itself, and therefore cannot and shouldn't be done in a day or even two. A full-length novel should take at least a week, although ideally more than that.

White Diamond Editing wrote: "As a professional editor and proofreader, I would just like to add that a professional should not alter your voice. True, we can advise on sentence flow and structure, but an editor's job is not to..."

I agree with your comment about speedy proofreaders. I scrutinise my manuscript at least three times before handing it to my brilliant team of nit-picking Beta readers. I then make any necessary amendments, read over the document again and then pass it to an editor. This painstaking process can take several weeks and inevitably drives me to distraction.

Although editing services are expensive, they have enabled me to improve the quality of my writing.

Thank you all again for the advice. I think I will try the editing software and then get a freelancer to proofread it at a reasonable price. I am not looking for someone to improve style/flow/diction etc. This is a nonfiction book, and I am not Hemingway.

I just want to follow up say that I did download the trial version of prowriting aid, and I was able to make numerous revisions.

There are a lot of false positives, but I am actually quite impressed by the software.

One thing though is that the spelling and grammar were the only areas where I actually found it to be useful. The "style" section seems to make a lot of questionable recommendations like changing to active voice when it isn't practical or it reads perfectly well as it is. I understand that the software is designed to be overly sensitive and makes a lot of elitist literary recommendations like avoiding a split infinitive *YAWN*.

It is painful to go through the numerous "glue word" and "diction" recommendations. Did anyone find any of the other aspects of the software useful? Is there a way to get something more from the "style" analysis?

For what it's worth - be very very careful. I have spent $4500 bucks now on editing and proof reading with so called professionals, some freelancers, two people who are part of companies who hold themselves out as experts. Honestly - vet the people in question - do not trust them. This is one of those areas where literally anyone can say they are an expert. I would find someone who has edited a book on Amazon, that is listed as the editor of that book and find a book with tonnes of reviews and check out the one star ones to make sure that they are not grammar related. Then track them down that way.

The programs llike ProWritingAid are help and are only guides. When I use it, I do try to get rid of glue words and passive voice. Split infinitives depends on where and why, but it will tighten and help your book. You will never get rid of all the issues. (All those its are no-nos btw.) If you take the time to go through all the corrections (I do the combo and slog through the colors) when you are done you will see a big differnece.

As to paying an editor, you need to have them do a sample edit. I hired both of mine based on what they did. I am paying for copy editing. Again, you only change what doesn't affect your story or character voices. If you are using more than copy editing, like developmental editint, then expect to pay more. So far, my editors have been great in catching errors, correcting sentences while giving suggestions for various things like being to vague or passive voice instead of active, sentence flow, etc. For a book of 120k words, the cost was $1200.

Like hiring a handyman, ask for references and talk to those people. Make sure they like your genre and respect their preferences if they don't. Do not pay all upfront. Have it split into sections so if you find you don't like what they are doing, you can fire them. You are in control and it is your book after all.

Brandon wrote: "I am interested in getting a proofreader for my nonfiction book which is about 75,000 words.

There are proofreaders on freelance websites such as fiverr which charge only $120 for a book of any le..."

Brandon,

I have edited many manuscripts on a volunteer basis for writers all over the world, mostly on a volunteer basis. I did edit a couple of action novels for a guy; he paid me a thousand dollars. I thought it was great being paid to share with this guy, a fellow Oregonian, in his Novel experience.

I am prolific, but I like to self-publish on Kindle as soon as I finish a book; I am always working on five plus books at the same time. It is tough. I cannot afford to hire a proofreader or an editor.

My wife sometimes edits for me. My method of editing gets me by. I set my Microsoft Word to grammar check, not much different from spellcheck, and rewrite the text in the box each time it pops up with a suggestion on spelling, grammar, or style.

Since I type like a lunatic on my early drafts, that little spell/grammar check box pops up quite often when I review my manuscript. I use the spellcheck box as a window to break text into manageable chunks I can deal with easily. Sometimes I use the suggested correction the grammar/spellcheck suggests. Usually, I rewrite the whole paragraph of text in the box.

If the sentence or paragraph is weak, I rewrite it using stronger verbs. If it is unclear, I clarify it.

That little spellcheck box is worth its hypothetical weight in gold. I usually end up either injuring or murdering uncountable words or syllables. I am adept at avoiding prosecution; I rework all of those sentences, infusing them with oxygen at times, strangling the ones who will not cooperate. I deal with words within the confines of the spellcheck box; it shrinks the high volume of space a vast document of thousand words to a bearable paragraph.

I suppose that is not entirely accurate. If I lose patience with the sentences, I just strangle a couple of the longer lines. The rest fall in 'line.'

One great advantage of using the spellcheck box for your own personal line-editing tool is the superior role of the delete key. Using the spellcheck sentence buster tool, the delete key cursor is placed at the front of the old text; when pressed it will chew up the old words until it has reached the end. Without the spell-check box, the delete tool, in a regular document, will keep deleting until it eats up all text in your document.

So, type like mad, ignoring your mistakes. When you return to do a spell/grammar check, you will not have to edit line by line, just let that box display its paragraph of text for you to view. It is a much more controllable process.

Donald Standeford

White Diamond Editing wrote: "As a professional editor and proofreader, I would just like to add that a professional should not alter your voice. True, we can advise on sentence flow and structure, but an editor's job is not to..."



Well said.

Brandon wrote: "I am interested in getting a proofreader for my nonfiction book which is about 75,000 words."

After the major rewrites of my novel, I did a line edit, then used Amazon KDP to print ARC paperbacks, and then did the final proofread.

For the line edit, I had my wife audio-record each chapter using the HI-Q app on her phone. This is one of many free apps. Her recordings were uploaded to Dropbox. As I did my own line edit, I listened to her recording, rewriting stilted dialog, etc.

After the line edit, I printed a few ARC paperbacks. Friends caught a number of typos and grammar problems. I realized that I needed a professional proofreader. I used KDP recommended Amnet Systems. They provided a marked-up PDF of my 80,000 word novel for $526. I made about 80 percent of their recommended changes. I was glad that I used a pro.

Hey John.

Thank you for your input.

$526 for $80,000 words seems reasonable. I will contact Ammet Systems for a quote just to see. You make the point well that even after extensive editing, a proofreader will find things to improve.

Another question for the gallery:

Are split infinitives and occasional passive voice a big deal for a nonfiction book of this type? I am pretty sure Malcolm Gladwell uses a decent amount of passive voice. I could be wrong though.

I read through it (edit myself) and do grammarly and word's grammar checker, and I send it to friends to critique/beta... and then I send it to a non-professional editor (another set of eyes) and she catches problems too. If I spent the $1000 per book (which is what I've found is a going rate) I'm sure she'd find more problems, but I can't afford that. But finding someone at $150ish is a great deal.

That being said, I do not trust Fiverr's reviews at all. Nobody is honest on that thing.

There are a lot of good providers on Fivver, but finding them can be hard. Reedsy and Upwork are much more reliable.

I get the lack of funds, Nat and it appears that you are doing your best to catch all the major errors. Beta readers will catch quite a few, but unless they are editors, there are some things they will miss, but...here's the thing, you're readers won't even notice those smaller things as they don't care about the finer points. What the reader wants in a good story. One they can get into without being pulled out by major issues. so if you have a comma missing or use 'it' and have dangling modifiers, they won't care. What they will care about is that sentence which doesn't make sense and they go 'huh?' They will care about the hero which they can't relate to, and the ending which leaves them going 'well, that was flat'.

If you use MS Word and have the newer one, it will read the text back to you which helps. Natural Dragon does that also. The voices are somewhat robotic, but you will catch a lot of errors and clunky sentences or if something doesn't really make sense. Also, read the manuscript aloud. You'd be surprised at how many issues you'll find when you do that in pacing, rhythm and sentence structure. Editors will also recommend going from the back to the front so you are really reading it. That will make you pay attention instead of seeing what you think it says.

If the story doesn't make you feel something, then your reader won't feel it either. No matter how good your writing is, it's the story that matters. (IE, the Twilight series and Shades of Grey were poorly written but sold millions because of the story.)

Proofreading is easy, I do my own copy editing and proofreading and I'm anal about stuff being off so I basically do it as I write. That's why my stuff takes awhile. I'm considering signing up for that site and I'd charge less but I couldn't manage 2-3 days. I have a lot of stuff going on so I'd have to push rushes on it on days I don;t sleep.

I write erotica, I have found too many beta readers get caught up in the story line and fail to catch errors during the exciting parts. I would imagine the same problem with action adventure. So I start with grammarly and skip 75% of it’s suggestions, (sterilizes character voice) then like was said above, I have a reading app read my book back to me. I use two speeds (slow and fast) as each might POP a mistake when you hear it. Last I send it to the beta readers. I find if the beta reader gets a first pass (sees a ton of mistakes) they are easily overwhelmed. Self publishing through Amazon has yet to make a $1000 editing budget an acceptable expense...

Mason wrote: "I write erotica, I have found too many beta readers get caught up in the story line and fail to catch errors during the exciting parts. I would imagine the same problem with action adventure. So I ..." Mason, I use a similar approach. I've only used MS Read Aloud; I'm intrigued by your comment regarding an app that read at different speeds. Would you minding saying more?

Natural Soft will read at different speeds and have several voices of male and female and English voices. I used it until MS Word had the read aloud feature.

B.A. wrote: "Natural Soft will read at different speeds and have several voices of male and female and English voices. I used it until MS Word had the read aloud feature." Thanks, B.A.

BA, yes, the reading aloud really helps too. Thanks for the suggestions! It's something I do for my shorter works, but don't always put the effort/have the time to do for my longer. But it's a good reminder.

I find that reading sentence by sentence, starting at the back of the book, takes away context and allows me to focus on the structure of each sentence. Its a bit time consuming but its free.

That said, I have used an editing service for a couple of projects with great results and it wasn't as expensive as I expected. PM me if you want the details -- I am not advertising for them here! ;)

Bottom line is that neither time nor cost should keep you from putting the best product possible on the bookshelves with your name on the cover.

I use Pro Connect for minor proofreading. Should I hire a proofreader before I publish my book of short stories? Is Reedsy good?

Avira: I hired a proofreader after having a few relatives take a look at the manuscript and going through it with prowriting aid. The proofreader caught about 4 clear errors and also gave suggeseted 10-15 minor improvements.

To me, this was worth the cost. She (Donna Rich) charged $150 for a 75,000 word manuscript. I can give you her e-mail if you are interested.

Brandon wrote: "Avira: I hired a proofreader after having a few relatives take a look at the manuscript and going through it with prowriting aid. The proofreader caught about 4 clear errors and also gave suggesete..."

Thank you:) That will be great. I will send you message to get the email.