Classics and the Western Canon discussion

It is time once again to start discussing our next major read. The moderators, in conjunction with the notorious Random Book Generator™ offer these seven nominations for your consideration. 2019 seems to be year for monster reads. Please post your thoughts on our nominees and feel free to begin lobbying for your favorite.

1. Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

2. The Voyage Out by Virginia Woolf

3. Letters from a Stoic by Seneca

4. Gargantua and Pantagruel by François Rabelais

5. Madame Bovary by Gustave Flaubert

6. The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman by Laurence Sterne

7. Jason and the Golden Fleece by Apollonius of Rhodes

Upcoming Schedule
June 12-18: Poll. Runoff poll June 19-25, if needed.
June 26-July 9: Two week interim read.
July 10-16: Week 1 Discussion: Third Read of 2019.

Very balanced and broad set, I even do not know which is my favorite. I'll join every choice, may be not Cervantes, I have not fallen in love with it in my first reading.

I have to post this, although without endorsing the views expressed therein:

... How many luckless innocents have teased and fretted their minds into a forced appreciation of that artistic ogre Flaubert, and his laborious pursuit of his precious "exact word," when they might have been pleasantly sailing down Rabelais' rich stream of immortal nectar, or sweetly hugging themselves over the lovely mischievousness of Tristram Shandy! But one must be tolerant; one must make allowances. The world of books is no puritanical bourgeois-ridden democracy; it is a large free country, a great Pantagruelian Utopia, ruled by noble kings.

One Hundred Best Books, With Commentary and an Essay on Books and Reading

Good ol Powys. What a card that guy was.

I'd endorse that view.

After the long nonfiction read we're soon to finish, I'd love to return to fiction for awhile. Having read Tristan Shandy a very long time ago, I recall it as a fun read, but I can't imagine how we could have a multi-week discussion about it. I've never read anything by Virginia Wolf - shame on me - and could happily support The Voyage Out. I've read Don Quixote a couple of times, but wouldn't mind spending more time with the old gent. Gargantua and Pantagruel might be fun, but they haven't aged well. I am drawn to Letters from a Stoic, but that violates my hope that we move to fiction. Madame Bovary and Jason and the Golden Fleece would be at the bottom of my list.

The poll has been posted.

Voting starts on: Jun 12, 2019 12:00 A.M. PDT
Voting ends on: June 18, 2019 11:59 P.M. PDT

Pacific Daylight Time (PDT) is 7 hours behind Coordinated Universal Time (UTC)

Just a reminder, if you haven't voted in the poll for the next read. Voting will end on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 11:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, or 2:59 AM Wednesday morning, Eastern Daylight Time (US)

Since there was no clear majority winner and the "other" votes are enough to allow either of the top two to win, there will be a run-off between Don Quixote and Tristram Shandy.

Here are the Raw and Weighted results of the initial poll.

R	W	W%	Book	
8	17	40.5%	Don Quixote	
6	13	31.0%	Tristram Shandy	
2	5	11.9%	Madame Bovary	
1	3	7.1%	Jason and the Golden Fleece	
2	2	4.8%	The Voyage Out	
1	1	2.4%	Gargantua an Pantagruel	
1	1	2.4%	Letters from a Stoic	

The run-off poll has been posted and will end, Tuesday June 25, 2019 at 11:59 PM Pacific Daylight Savings Time (UTC -7).

What is it about the reputations of Don Quixote and Tristram Shandy that sways your vote toward or away from one of them?

Don Quixote is long.

Christopher wrote: "Don Quixote is long."

So for those who wish the story would never end, DQ might be as good as it gets.

Average unabridged audio-book lengths (source audible.com)
Don Quixote: around 36-39 hours.
Tristram Shandy: around 19-22 hours.

For comparison:
DIA was about 34 hours.
The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire: about 127 hours.

Either of these would be good to read with the group imo. I’ll vote for Tristram Shandy because 1) I never read it and 2) it has always sounded appealing with humor and an unconventional structure for a novel of its day.

I have always wanted to read Tristram Shandy for those same reasons and I have read from several sources that it was a favorite of Thomas Jefferson. However, I have also read this:

We know, furthermore, that Thomas and Martha took an early mutual delight in Sterne’s Tristram Shandy, even reading it aloud to one another during those long evenings. We must thus, from the first, appreciate what becomes ever clearer as the story proceeds: we are studying a man with very little sense of humor.
Hitchens, Christopher. Thomas Jefferson: Author of America (Eminent Lives) (p. 11). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

David wrote: "We must thus, from the first, appreciate what becomes ever clearer as the story proceeds: we are studying a man with very little sense of humor...."

Well, Hitchens's joke would have been the same if the book had been Don Quixote.

"And the counselor wants no sissies
So he reads to us from something called Ulysses."

I voted for the Man Who Tilts at Windmills because I thought this would be an excellent group to read it with. Plus he's got a great sidekick.

Rocinante Is my spirit-animal.

The last paragraph of the Introduction to my copy of Tristram Shandy reads as follows:

"Sterne is not a thinker. We do not go to him, as we do to Dostoievski, to enlarge our boundaries of throught through imagination. He is not even greatly learned; at bottom his lore is a trick and a joke. The generations return to him because he is an artist, an unrivaled delineator of the comedy of life, and because there is a wholesome warmth to him, a love of life and experience and common humanity." Bergan Evans

Having made Tristram's acquaintance some years back, I can vouch for him and for the words above. We will be befuddled; we will be confused; we will ask what the *** is going on? But it will be fun.

For me, the choice is clear I have read Don Quixote and have not Tristram Shandy.

As for Don Quixote, I read Servantes and Rable in school, and though both looking unsatisfactory long (for a schoolboy) I thought Don Quixote is a literature of a different quality. But now I definitely want to reread (someday) Gargantua and I cringe from the thought of rereading Servantes. Perhaps, I have not found my ‘spirit-animal’ (or person).

As for Tristram, in the university, we had introductory lectures on English literature and I have a long list of books, which I am longing to read; the first was Ulysses and next day I accidentally found the book in my aunt’s library and read it in a week (by nights only). So I have high expectations from Tristram.

David wrote: "For comparison:
DIA was about 34 hours.
The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire: about 127 hours. "

Looking forward to the discussion of The Decline and Fall...

We seem to be experiencing what Tocqueville referred to as "the agitated state of elections". The ten votes cast in the run-off SO FAR, is results in a tie by the weighted votes.

You have until Tuesday, June 25 11:59 PM PDT (-7) to vote and campaign for your choice; positive campaigning preferred.

Why is DQ considered one of the greatest, if not the greatest, novel of all time? Are all the jokes in TS discernible and are they still funny?

Remember, a vote for a book signifies the intention to participate in the discussion if that book wins.

Is this like the lottery? If it stays tied, do we double the number of books and try again next week?

I don’t think we can go wrong here with either choice, and personally I plan to participate whichever one wins. As for critical opinions, the plurality are favorable for both these books, but I’m not voting for which is the greatest novel, just for which one I’d prefer to read this summer.

I will participate too. But I admit I will be disappointed if I don't get to see Quixote and Sancho lying on the ground beaten to a pulp philosophizing over the loss of chivalry.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Is this like the lottery? If it stays tied, do we double the number of books and try again next week?"

No, but I like the way you think. We need to provide those members who do not have the next read time to acquire it.

In the case of run-off ties, the moderators will make a decision based on several criteria such as interest and moderator availability and choose among several options such as:
1. Deciding to read one first and the other one next.
2. Deciding to read one and include the other in the next poll, or some other future poll, to determine if the interest in reading it is still there.
3. Deciding on one and leaving the reappearance of the other up to the Random Book Generator.

Cphe wrote: "Has either novel been read as a group read here before?"

DQ was read, very aggressively it seems, starting 2009/07/01 for 10 weeks. I did not join the group until 2012 and thus did not participate in that one. The discussion may still be found here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

I cannot find any records of this group reading TS.

I haven't read either, so it would be a win-win. However, I do own DQ and it has languished on my shelf for years waiting to be read. So this would be the right impetus!

I also have got a lot of books which wait for right impetus. Funny that with DQ situation is vise a versa, it stand on the bookshelf and every time I see it (it is the only book with white cover on the shelf) I feel more certain that I will not read it again. Unfortunately, if selected, it would have a good chance to be a last major reading of the year.

To underscore Tocqueville's point about the crisis of elections and the importance of participating in government, at the time of this posting the run-off poll is tied, in both raw votes (10-10) and weighted votes (18-18).

I trust everyone is making an informed decision, but feel free to continue informing everyone else of why your choice should win, and don't force the moderators to become tyrants and restore order by declaring a winner for you :)

Cphe wrote: "I haven't voted as I've read neither novel and would be interested in both."
But, Cphe, you're Australian. Voting is mandatory.

Thank you all for your votes.

Our next major read for 2019 will be:

R 	W 	W %	Book
13	29	60.4%	Don Quixote
11	19	39.6%	Tristram Shandy

The reading discussion for DQ will begin July 10-16.

Since there is strong evidence for interest in Tristram Shandy, can I suggest including it in the next poll?

I didn't vote because I was not sure if I could read Don Quixote, but I am happy that it won. I will make an "effort" to read it.

Roger wrote: "Since there is strong evidence for interest in Tristram Shandy, can I suggest including it in the next poll?"

I'm with you on that, Roger. My interest has been piqued by all I have seen about Sterne's styles foreshadowing modern literature. Glad you think your interest will hold, 'cause sometimes reading interests can very much belong to a particular point in time in one's own reading oeuvre.

Yeah, DQ!

I wouldn't mind TS after. But I'll have to see what the RBG daemon spits out. That little devil, it always puts up two or three contenders to mess with your head.

The strong vote for TS gives us information on how much interest there is in it. We throw away that information if we just return it to the general pool. Let's see if the Random Book Generator can come up with anything better. If not, we can read TS next.

Make it a new rule: always add the runner-up choice to the RBG selection for the next read.

It's a good rule.

I am not sure if this is a good rule in principle, but this question (afaik) returns after almost every poll, so maybe give it a try.

Great! I haven't joined you in awhile for a read, but this is one that's been on my own list for a long while. Hope to "see" you all again soon!

Kathy wrote: "Great! I haven't joined you in awhile for a read, but this is one that's been on my own list for a long while. Hope to "see" you all again soon!"

Nice to have you back, Kathy.

I am really looking forward to reading Don Quixote! I haven't read it since college, and I feel I am going to read it again for the first time.

I was having a hard time deciding between the two options, so I'm good with the suggestion to include TS in the next poll.