Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

but not the other.
Powder & Patch I like Phillip but not Cleone. Shallow & selfish. Still enjoyed the book as I found Phillip so endearing!
Lady of Quality I don't remember it well, but I know I didn't like the hero. Didn't like the book.
I'm wanting to reread a Civil Contract before I decide about Adam.

There may be more but I'm in the early stages of rereading.

Adam was just overwhelmed by new responsibilities and memories of calf love. His manners were too good to be a cad.

I love Freddie so much in Cotillion, that Kitty seems a little lesser - but she is sweet I hasten to add.

Adam is not deserving of Jenny ( my favourite heroine I think) but I came grudgingly to think that he would be OK in the end and even come to deserve her.

Sherry bothers me as a partner for Hero( though I can see she would be a bit of a trial ) He even hits her which makes me quite unable to warm to him even though , in another thread this was well analysed and it was plausibly suggested that he really only acted as a boy would , not a real abuser. Still...

Looks like I have put this in the wrong place - & Christy B isn't accepting messages. Is anyone able to contact her to get it moved?
Sorry bout that! :D

I really disliked Sherry until the last couple of chapters. Before then I thought he was in no way deserving of Hero and wondered how Ms. Heyer was going to fix that situation. The ending was so perfect that I can see they would be very happy together.

The couple that I can never see being happy is Vidal and Mary. I think he is completely detestable. I feel poorly for her because I think she will have an unhappy life with him.

@Amy

You are in good company. Most of the folks here seem to feel as you do about Vidal and Mary.

Nope I have faith in Mary! I think Vidal is going to end up under a very loving thumb!

@Carol

I agree!

I think Mary will take over and Vidal will love it!

Well, they were still together for An Infamous Army, with descendants -- at least a granddaughter. I think Mary was right when she thought to herself, 'I could manage him.'

I think Vidal and Mary make a great couple, personally.

Interesting idea for a thread. I don't like Cleone either.

And in Friday's Child, Isabella/George -- I love him, never really could warm toward her.

As for Vidal and Mary, if the Duke of Avon thinks Mary can manage his recalcitrant son, then I believe him. He is too worldly wise to be wrong in such matters.

I wasn't crazy about Drusilla, but liked Gervase a lot (The Quiet Gentleman). Gervase reminded me of a grown up Duke of Sale (The Foundling). Drusilla wasn't bad, and improved by the end, but I still thought Gervase could do better :)

Emily wrote: "I wasn't crazy about Drusilla, but liked Gervase a lot (The Quiet Gentleman). Gervase reminded me of a grown up Duke of Sale (The Foundling). Drusilla wasn't bad, and improved by the end, but I sti..."

In what way, do better? What does Drusilla lack?

For myself, the problem I have with this couple is that we don't really see Gervase falling in love with Drusilla. He is so self-contained. Because she has to keep the mystery for the reader, Heyer can't let us be privy to Gervase's thoughts and full point of view and so we don't see him falling for her.

Hj wrote: "In what way, do better? What does Drusilla lack?

For myself, the problem I have with this couple is that we don't really see Gervase falling in love with Drusilla. He is so self-contained. Because she has to keep the mystery for the reader, Heyer can't let us be privy to Gervase's thoughts and full point of view and so we don't see him falling for her. "

I only read The Quiet Gentleman once, a year ago or so, but if my memory doesn't fail me I remember finding Drusilla a bit boring to begin with. I know she is supposed to be down-to-earth and sensible, and by the end of the book I liked her a lot better, but it's as you say, it felt almost like she deserved to get Gervase so she got him, and not that Gervase couldn't help himself because he was so overcome with love. In terms of what she lacks - that's hard to say (though a good question). Perhaps she could have been more active in finding the man who tried to kill him, or spoken more directly to Gervase about her suspicions and cooperated with him more actively. They didn't have that many interactions, all in all. There is also a certain unevenness about them - he is handsome, rich, fashionable, intelligent, kind etc. She is not that good-looking, not very rich (if I recall correctly), and monologues to herself Jane-Eyre-style, about how she's not good enough for him. I suppose I'd like to know more about why he fell in love with her, what was it about her that he liked so much. If they had cooperated more, if they spoke to one another and done things together to find out who was plotting to have him killed, GH could have developed the chemistry between them more (like she did so well in Frederica or Cotillion), but like in Regency Buck she had to sacrifice this for suspense since this is more of a crime mystery than a romance.

Emily wrote: "If they had cooperated more, if they spoke to one another and done things together to find out who was plotting to have him killed, GH could have developed the chemistry between them more (like she did so well in Frederica or Cotillion), but like in Regency Buck she had to sacrifice this for suspense since this is more of a crime mystery than a romance. ..."

Yes, this is what I was getting at. She couldn't even talk to him about her suspicions because that would have told us readers too much. I did find her "you must know best" a little irksome, but it's accurate for the period I suppose.

Maybe they could have been shown having conversations about something else? Just so we could feel they were actually developing a relationship?

Yes, like when they were playing chess together or dancing together, that's when I liked them both best. I actually liked him a lot. He was one of GH's understated heroes, like the Duke of Sale in the Foundling or Adam in a Civil Contract. I really need to re-read the Quiet Gentleman.

Hj wrote: "...For myself, the problem I have with this couple is that we don't really see Gervase falling in love with Drusilla."

Yes, we get this sometimes when the romance isn't really the main story - I feel GH throws couples together at the end because she thinks readers expect it rather than because the plot calls for it! I feel the same way about The Grand Sophy when Sophy falls into Charles' arms without any previous hint that she felt anything much for him.

It would have been better in both cases, to my mind, if the ending had shown both couples beginning to take an interest in each other now that the other complications in their lives are done with, rather than instant romance.

Jenny wrote: "I feel the same way about The Grand Sophy when Sophy falls into Charles' arms without any previous hint that she felt anything much for him.

It would have been better in both cases, to my mind, if the ending shows both couples beginning to take an interest in each other now that the other complications in their lives are done with, rather than instant romance. "

Yes, Sophy and Charles are problematic, because GH remembered to tell us, very subtly but still, how Charles fell for her, but there is little in the way of even hinting that she had feelings for him. I wonder, will they be happy together?

Emily wrote: "Jenny wrote: "I feel the same way about The Grand Sophy when Sophy falls into Charles' arms without any previous hint that she felt anything much for him.

It would have been better in both cases,..."

Jenny wrote: "Hj wrote: "...For myself, the problem I have with this couple is that we don't really see Gervase falling in love with Drusilla."

Yes, we get this sometimes when the romance isn't really the main ..."

Jenny wrote: "Hj wrote: "...For myself, the problem I have with this couple is that we don't really see Gervase falling in love with Drusilla."

Yes, we get this sometimes when the romance isn't really the main ..."<

I always feel that we know Sophy is in love with Charles just because of all her interferences in his life. Isn't there a part towards the end where she starts to doubt her actions? I think that's because she's afraid that she might not get him to give her an opportunity to fall into his arms.

But as far as Drusilla and Gervase, I agree that a bit more conversation during the dancing and dining would help! I have a feeling there must have been quite a few recognition-glances, but we don't hear of them. I think, too, that Gervase wasn't hanging out for a wife and probably hadn't given much thought to the kind of wife he'd want, eventually, so that when Drusilla slipped into his life, he was not only surprised but pleased at her sense- and probably at his own sense, too, in recognizing her worth.

Karlyne wrote: "Emily wrote: "Jenny wrote: "I feel the same way about The Grand Sophy when Sophy falls into Charles' arms without any previous hint that she felt anything much for him.

It would have been better ..."

Ooops, somehow I got everything in italics! Well, aren't I smart!

Emily wrote: "Yes, like when they were playing chess together or dancing together, that's when I liked them both best. I actually liked him a lot. He was one of GH's understated heroes, like the Duke of Sale in ..."

I need to re-read it, too; it's been a while.

Jenny wrote, "I feel the same way [as about Gervase and Drusilla] about The Grand Sophy when Sophy falls into Charles' arms without any previous hint that she felt anything much for him."

I had the same reaction the first time I read The Grand Sophy, although I had wondered through the book just whom she was going to end up with. Surely not Sir Vincent, but who else was there? On second reading, I wached more carefully and suspected that she had set her heart on Charles almost from their first meeting. When nothing came of their encounter over Amabel's sickbed, she had to do something drastic to bring things to a head (and of course it helped that she jarred Miss Wraxton into breaking her and Charles's engagement, since "a gentleman never cries off"). I'm reminded of Ruth's crawling under the blanket with Boaz.

I wondered about Sophy too. I figured out who she would end up with but the outcome didn't satisfy me the way I had hoped because it was just tossed in there. Heyer longed to write a serious historical novel and probably thought her romances were a bit silly but they made a lot of money so she gave the readers what they want. I'll look and see if the Koestner bio says anything about the lack of romance. She does emphasis that Heyer liked "meeting of the minds" romances rather than "grand sweeping passion."

I think there are very subtle clues that Sophy is warming toward Charles as he warms toward her. They are both kind-hearted people who feel responsible for the happiness of the people they care about, but Sophy's approach is more carefree. Charles is weighed down by his responsibilities, because his family really is dependent on him -- quite aside from the financial side of things, neither of his parents will take on the necessary adult role to steer the younger members of the family and somebody needs to do it! It's clear that he loves his siblings very much, and if the parents had been fulfilling their proper roles, then he would have been free to be the understanding older brother the others came to with their problems. He would never be a wild young man absorbed in his own pleasures -- that's not in his nature -- but he would be more independent of his family, and therefore more sympathetic as Cecilia and Hubert reach an age where they, too, want to be more independent.

So I like them both and I think they are perfect for each other.

Teresa wrote: "I think there are very subtle clues that Sophy is warming toward Charles as he warms toward her. They are both kind-hearted people who feel responsible for the happiness of the people they care ab..."

Yes, that's a very good way of putting it. And I like the "meeting of the minds" romance in Heyer a lot too. There's no doubt about it that Sophy, with her managing skills will have a good influence over Charles (unlike his first fiancee), because she cares about the people's actual well-being. Still, I like the moments in GH novels where we become privy to someone's change of heart or the moment when we are told or shown that they feel something. Charles gets a moment like that in his sister's sickroom - it was nice, because he is usually such a gruff fellow.

My favourite 'meeting of the minds' Heyer has to be Hugo and Anthea though. Mainly because GH puts in a great deal of dialogue between them and they are hilarious together, not to mention the way they understand each other, despite of Hugo's deep game. Oh, and Miles and Abigail!!

Teresa wrote: "... neither of his parents will take on the necessary adult role to steer the younger members of the family and somebody needs to do it! It's clear that he loves his siblings very much, and if the parents had been fulfilling their proper roles, then he would have been free to be the understanding older brother the others came to with their problems. ..."

This is particularly insightful! It explains why the problem arose with Hubert.

I also think that one can see Sophy falling in love with Charles. Because she is so sensible and practical I suspect she consciously decides that she'd like to marry him (if only for his family, and because he'd be a challenge) and then falls for him as well. We're told he's very good with the younger children; she would see more of that than we do, and so would know what a nice person he was under all his managing ways. She knows he needs rescuing too!

Hj wrote: "Teresa wrote: "... neither of his parents will take on the necessary adult role to steer the younger members of the family and somebody needs to do it! It's clear that he loves his siblings very mu..."

I think both of the above (Teresa and Hj) are insightful. I think I kind of glossed over Sophy's apparent not-in-love-ness , the way you do with Heyer because you just enjoy it anyway. I do like to be shown something new , thank you both !

Thank you, Barbara!

Emily wrote: I like the moments in GH novels where we become privy to someone's change of heart or the moment when we are told or shown that they feel something.

Yes, I love those moments, too. Or moments when a character suddenly knows his or her own heart. Or a moment of recognition when a character sees another for who he or she really is.

One of my favorites is in Arabella, when Mr. Beaumaris stops seeing Arabella as a bit of a diversion and recognizes her as a real person. Up until that point, they both struck me as stock characters and I wasn't particularly fond of either of them myself.

Teresa wrote: "Thank you, Barbara!

Emily wrote: I like the moments in GH novels where we become privy to someone's change of heart or the moment when we are told or shown that they feel something.

Yes, I love ..."

It reminds me of Sylvester and how he didn't really see Phoebe as a person for quite a while. And I didn't like him, either, until he did!

I've thought of another couple where I only like half: Diana and Jack in The Black Moth. Love him, but I think she is much too childish for her age.

Teresa: that moment in Arabella with the chimney sweep when Mr Beaumaris actually has to hold on to his chair when he is struck by his realisation is one of my favourites too! I agree completely that until then the characters aren't as easy to like.

Other favourite moments of the kind for me are the end of a Civil Contract and that moment in Frederica where Alverstoke realises that all he wants is to make Frederica's life easier however he could, he who cared for nothing and nobody. I think because in GH those moments are quite rare and she doesn't rhapsodise over them, that they are particularly sweet when they do happen.