Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

Hi.

I've recentedly read Bath Tangle and I wanted to discuss some elements of the book. I liked it, but at the same time, I was disappointed in some decisions Georgette took:

I decided to read it because the Goodreads summary said that "The scandalous Serena had more beaux than she could dangle on a string, but none of them seemed to matter--now that her former suitor Rotherham pursued another beautiful belle!" - So I was expecting a kind of Emma epiphany (Jane Austen) in which the heroine realizes "Rotherham must marry no one but herself" and I guess we got that, but the lack of an actually written epiphany ruined it a little bit for me. Like, when does Serena really realize that she still loves Rotherham?- I loved the scene in which she receives the news of his engagement and cuts herself with the rose's prickles (like the news hurted her physically), but I would have loved to be able to read her actual thoughts on that moment, instead of Fanny's.

I am also disappointed that the book never gives a good reason about why Serena and Rotherham broke up their engagement, Serena just says that "they didn't fit" - but we see through the whole book that the truth is the opposite, so I was expecting they broke up because of some big misunderstanding than Serena realizes later in the book, but nothing else was explained. I don't know, I feel like it would've been more interesting if Serena broke up with him because she wanted empty flattery at first and then, she realized it was a mistake jilting him. But when did she start regretting it? Was it years before the beginning of the book or did it only happen when she heard about his engagement?

It would also have been good to see Serena angry at herself for breaking up the engagement, and being afraid that after such humillation, he wouldn't dare to propose to her again.

In my opinion, it would've been better if Ivo had fancied himself really in love with Emily and was courting her (not asking for her hand so rushly) just to try to forget Serena - and I was expecting him to say something like this to Serena: "At least, Emily's love is so constant that she would never jilt me a month before the wedding."

So in conclusion my questions are:
- When did Serena realize she was in love with Rotherham? Had she always known?
- Why did she reallly broke up their engagement?
- When dis she start to regret jilting him?

And then, I would also like to ask you, what moments do you remember in which Serena shows her partiality for Rotherham?
I remember when she wore her best dress because she knew he was coming to call on her, or when she stopped playing the piano the moment he left, or when Fanny noticed Serena was in a better mood after she had had one of her quarrels with him. Do you remember more? I love those small subtle moments.

And, what other books of Georgette Heyer, have the heroine feeling jealous, even before admitting she loves him?

Thanks!

It has been a little while since I read it so I couldn't give you any specific moments that reveal her feelings; also, she is someone who hides her deepest feelings, so she wouldn't do or say anything overt. But she does seem to lose patience with those around her when she has most reason to be unhappy, and that might be a tell.

I find it hard to forgive her for going along with the Major's suit when she's clearly in love with another. He seems like a perfectly nice guy who doesn't deserve to be put through all that misery--even if he is delusional enough to fancy himself in love with her. She should have been the grownup in the room. That said, I have no use for Rotherham..

I can't blame Serena for being swept off her feet, so to speak, by the Major. he is handsome and sweet and from her girlhood! the way it was described it seemed so natural.

I remember when she wore her best dress because she knew he was coming to call on her, or when she stopped playing the piano the moment he left, or when Fanny noticed Serena was in a better mood after she had had one of her quarrels with him. Do you remember more? I love those small subtle moments.

those are all great.

I would also like to know why they broke up originally. I think she realized she was still in love with him when she read he was engaged.

I assumed they broke up because one of their big rows got bigger than usual, rather than it being any particular issue. A battle for control.

I agree to a point. I thought that Serena and IVo's temperaments were very much alike and neither had learned to control themselves. Fanny and the Major are also very similar and avoid disputes. Serena some years on is beginning to be able to rein in her temper and her tongue but never to be ale to give vent to her feelings is stifling. One pair are milk and water the other brandy and ginger!
The whole point of the Ivo and Emily theme is that he is NOT in love with her. He is using her to get to Serena and it jerks Serena into the realisation eventually of her understanding of Ivo's character and love for him.

This is one of my least favourite Heyer books, because Ivo is so clearly abusive, and will continue to be so if he and Serena marry. There will be quarrels, manhandling, broken furniture - at least they won't have to worry about the neighbours taping the quarrels and phoning the police! This may be why Serena first broke off the engagement, but she has now decided that she can put up with the abuse because she thinks she'll give as good as she gets, and she misses the life of luxury and privilege that she will regain married to Ivo.

The use of Emily - bullied by her mother, and abused by Ivo - would, for me, have been the final nail in the coffin of any regard for Ivo. It is telling that it merely shows Serena how much she wants Ivo!

Thank you all for replying!

Abigail: "I find it hard to forgive her for going along with the Major's suit when she's clearly in love with another." - I think in this they're both equally guilty, after all, the Major also liked Serena only because she was pretty (his goddess) and for a long time, he ignored her temperament because he didn't want to wake up from his dream. Then, he knew he loved Fanny and that Serena loved Rotherham, and he was still planning on marry Serena anyway. So I wouldn't say the Major is completely innocent - but I did like his character, especially because he was the only clever one who realized in what kind of tangle they were! (Besides Rotherham!)

Ah: Yes, that makes sense, and probably by that time Serena was still dreaming with a fairytale ending in which she finds a man that worships her (like Kirkby did), and then later on, she realized she didn't like to be worshiped. (And that's why she told him to stop calling her goddess).

Margaret: Yes, and they're both in denial about their feelings and think the other is indifferent. In one of the last scenes, Serena says something like: "You were thankful to get rid of me. Own it!" So I think the fact that they were both uncertain of the other's feelings made the tangle all the more complicated.

Rosina: I'm surprised that so many people consider Ivo abusive. I didn't get that interpretation at all. Yes, Ivo says what he thinks even when it's offensive to others, but many times it is what the reader is also thinking (for example, that Fanny must feel liberated after the death of her husband, because that couldn't have been a marriage of equals) - and I think that's the whole theme of Tangle Bath: marry someone who complements you, instead of someone who idolizes you. I don't think there's any mention of Ivo beating anyone, (he grabs Serena's wrists but this is usually a sign of "passion" in Romance novels).

About his treatment of Emily, I think Georgette only tried to show how ridiculously difficult it was to get out of a proposal after you've made a mistake. Ivo proposed to Emily because he felt hopeless after losing Serena "forever" but then he realized his mistake. Unfortunately, if he himself broke the engagement, that would put Emily in a really bad situation (Society would wonder what was wrong with her), so he tried to force her to break it herself. Ivo took Emily's feelings in consideration in every step he took trying to break the engagement: For example, adding Gerard to the scene so Emily would have someone to support her and encourage her to be braver. I think Ivo is more like a dog that barks and doesn't bite, and in my opinion, that's better than other Georgette heroes that see a pretty girl they don't know and suddenly kiss her roughly (that's sexual abuse in every era, but especially in one where the woman's virtue was so important)

Ivo could be kind, but he didn't stand fools - in an ear where society molded women to be silly - and that's why he found his soultmate in Serena, who was raised as a boy - so an equal to him. I think it's very telling that Ivo would rather be married to a girl who fights him than to a girl who would allow him to do as he pleases (which is usually what abusers prefer, someone weak that's easy to manipulate). And he is the kind of man to pay for his silly nephew's schools, but doesn't advertise it, he actually hides that fact.

For me, Georgette made a mistake painting Emily as a innocent silly girl, I think Ivo wouldn't have been so criticized if she would have been more like Caroline Bingley, a clever fortune-hunter.

IMHO, Serena and Ivo will be happy together, especially because I think what made them quarrel so much was the frustration of having lost each other.

But that's only my interpretation!

excellent post, Carolina.
I also don't think Ivo is shown to be abusive, just loud and straightforward and, well, maybe verbally. especially when you compare him to how men like The Major talk to/with women.
he is at his worst - deliberately - while trying to make Emily realize he will not be a good husband, despite the wealth he would give her.

Bath Tangle will never be in my top three - too many others are better! - but I think it does a good job of portraying an usual heroine and her motivations.

I agree that he is not abusive - I do not think he gets a kick out of dominating others, but he is irritated and impatient with those who lack confidence or are sensitive, and does not even try to be kind a lot of the time.

I also agree that I can see Ivo and Serena quarreling less and appreciating each other more when they are married. There would no doubt be some major arguments, but they would get it all out in the open between them without interruption or anyone to preach propriety, and won't hold a grudge (and probably a fair amount of 'reconciliation' love making!).

But not bothering to be kind is not the same as actively trying to be unkind IYSWIM

With Ivo, my first reaction is to just get as far away as possible from him; I don't even like thinking about him.

I think I read somewhere in this group (but I can’t remember where), that the couple in this book was more passionate than in others and that the book had a somewhat sexual undertone (but still being Clean Regency Romance)...

I wanted to add that this may be because passages like the one with the book about Lord Byron and his lover. In this scene, Serena is engaged to Hector and he (undersrandbly) doesn’t like the idea of another man(Rotherman) sending this scandalous book to an innocent lady like Serena. To which she answers (I am paraphrasing) something like: “Rotherham knows more than anyone that I am not innocent”, something that shocks Hector because he thinks she’s implying she’s had relations with Ivo. Fanny goes to Serena’s rescue and explains that’s not what Serena meant (without actually verbalizing the misunderstanding, ofc). So I am pretty sure Serena meant Ivo knows she doesn’t get escandalizad easily, but it was still and interesting comment.

I was surprised by that misunderstanding, which makes one think what did Serena and Ivo share before breaking their engagement? I am sure Serena didn’t lose her virtue, but maybe they kissed? What was allowed in that time period for engaged couples?

I've just started reading this for the first time. I'll admit I'm not a big fan of Heyer's "straight"romances - I like her mysteries and the funny/witty ones a lot. I've not been as fond of the others, so we'll see how this goes. (I'm reading it beause it's the only one available on Overdrive right now that works for a challenge I'm doing. Most Heyer's have long waiting lists at the moment.)

So, at the very beginning I though I was going to love Serena and not Fanny. They seemed a bit like Sense and Sensibility, and I like Eleanor a lot more than Marianne. Howeve, now I'm in chapter 5, and I'm not so sure. We haven't seen a lot of Fanny, but she hasn't been an idiot yet. And I'm not sure about Serena. She's very opinionated, especially about Ivo, but I'm not sure how accurate she is in evaluating him. I'm not ready to assume what she says about him is always true, though maybe it is.

As for Ivo, his behavior at the dance, (view spoiler)[ dancing only with the pretties girl and then leaving, even though he'd escorted a niece there, (hide spoiler)] shows he's at least inconsiderate and only does what he likes, probably. But then, did he go back because Serena scolded him? Why?

So, I have lots of questions about those two.

I liked this exchange:
(Serena to Ivo) "You have neither patience nor compunction, Ivo."

"On your tongue that stricture sits oddly, my dear Serena!"

She flushed. "I hope that I at least have compunction."

"So do I, but I have not seen it!"

That made me giggle.

Teri-K wrote: "I've just started reading this for the first time. I'll admit I'm not a big fan of Heyer's "straight"romances - I like her mysteries and the funny/witty ones a lot. I've not been as fond of the oth..."

That exchange that you posted about compunction is indeed funny.

I enjoy Bath Tangle. I listen to the audio book alot. I’m fond of Bath as a setting.

Andrea AKA Catsos Person wrote: "I enjoy Bath Tangle. I listen to the audio book alot. I’m fond of Bath as a setting. ..."

Me, too. The summer after my freshman year of high school I got to spend the summer in England with my Aunt and Uncle, who was there for a few years on business. Bath was one of the places we visited, and I like that I can envision it as I read. :)

I'm about half way through the book, and one thing is puzzling me. I understand why the Major thinks he's in love with Serena. As a young man he built up this ideal of her, and having been separated for so long, he's only now beginning to realize she's not who he thought.

But why did Serena get engaged to him? He's always trying to get her to stop doing things she likes and being scandalized by her behavior, and she seems to be a woman who knows herself pretty well. I'd think she's call him a wet blanket. Instead she instantly gets engaged. Is this explained later, (in which case don't tell me what the reason is, please), or am I to think she's clueless about what her life with him would really be like?

Carolina wrote: "I was surprised by that misunderstanding, which makes one think what did Serena and Ivo share before breaking their engagement? I am sure Serena didn’t lose her virtue, but maybe they kissed? What was allowed in that time period for engaged couples?
.."
I think it's worth remembering that, although GH did a lot of research, the Regency World she portrays is in some respects very much her creation, so in thinking about what might have passed between Serena and Ivo what happens in the other novels might give a better idea than history books.
We see from time to time hints that even engaged couples are not left alone together, or are not supposed to be; on the other hand many if not most of the romances that end with the couples becoming engaged involve quite passionate clinches at that point, even if hindered by the lady's bonnet. Serena and Ivo's first engagement was a love match too, so by these lights it seems likely they did kiss - though it's noticeable that Serena, who thinks she is in love with Hector, only lets him kiss her on the lips occasionally and you can't imagine Hector giving her more than a respectful peck.
When Serena hears that Emily is afraid of Ivo, her first thought is that he has overdone the physical passion, so it sounds as though she has had some experience of his behaving like that towards her. I expect Serena and Ivo had kissed, then, but I doubt if they would have had the opportunity for prolonged snogging sessions, let alone anything more.

Teri-K wrote: "I understand why the Major thinks he's in love with Serena. As a young man he built up this ideal of her, and having been separated for so long, he's only now beginning to realize she's not who he thought.
But why did Serena get engaged to him?..."

I think she's at a vulnerable time of her life. She's just lost her father and her home and is feeling very isolated. Her father treated her as if she had been his son and her previous lover had also treated her brusquely as a comrade, so when someone out of her past comes along and treats her like a queen, or even a goddess, she's very open to being cherished and adored. Hector is fulfilling a temporary need - and the social convention that forbids marrying soon after a bereavement turns out to be a wise one!

well said, Jenny.
Let's not forget she was very young and in love with Hector as a girl and must find him very good looking.

Thank you, Jenny and Jackie. I think I was over-estimating her force of character and forgetting how hard losing her father and home were on her. Clearly she hasn't found a way to move forward yet. (In my own experience that can take years. And she's not good with uncertainty anyway, I don't think.)

Hector probably also reminds her of a time when life was much happier, and of course she wants to hold on to that feeling. That helps me understand her better!

Thank you for that answer, Jenny! I agree! And regarding why Serena accepted Hector’s marriage proposal, I have another theory!

1) We know Serena broke her engagement to Ivo because they quarreled too much, which is weird because through the book we see she loves quarreling with him, but that’s what she told Fanny at least. So maybe in her mind, she equaled true love to this blind devotion that was common in the romance novels of the time, and that was something she had with Hector, not Ivo.

2) When she gets engaged to Hector, they argue about her money and the possibility of Ivo forbidding the match. Serena mentions that Ivo said she could break the Trust if he showed to be unreasonable, so I think Serena expected him to forbid it (as her father did back then) giving her the chance of accusing him of being unreasonable and breaking the Trust she deems unfair. If for some unexpected reason, he allows it, then she would have her puppy love that she thinks she wants. So, in her mind, it’s a win-win.

3) Also, I think things change drastically for her when she learns about Ivo and Emily’s engagement, her reaction is saying: “What have I done?”, she looks horrified, cuts her finger with a rose and leaves to her room for a long time (I wish we could have seen what she does in her room: cry, shout, stare at the ceiling?), so she obviously regrets something, maybe she regrets not marrying Ivo or maybe she regrets accepting Hector’s proposal. Ivo and her sometimes behave like a married couple, in the first pages, Ivo even calls her “My love”, and she doesn’t complain about it, and Fanny mentions that she rejected many men... so I think her flirty relationship with Ivo was enough for her, but the moment she thinks she loses Ivo for good, she probably decides that Hector is a good enough candidate for a husband. (And her father didn’t leave any money for her in case she remained single, so she is in a very difficult situation). I think her father knew her well enough to know she was still in love with Ivo but was too proud to admit she made a mistake breaking their engagement, so he thought he could give them a last push from the grave!

Carolina wrote: "3) Also, I think things change drastically for her when she learns about Ivo and Emily’s engagement, her reaction is saying: “What have I done?”, she looks horrified, cuts her finger with a rose an..."

Yes - for me it is obvious throughout that Ivo and Serena are madly in love with each other but both were too strong-willed and hot-headed to be able to handle the relationship in the early days. I suspect Serena is comforted by Hector's adoration but that she swiftly realises that is not what is going to make her truly happy. When Ivo gets engaged to Emily - she realises what an idiot she has been (as does Ivo) but breaking an engagement then, was not the easy thing it would be today so that's a real obstacle. Serena is not particularly attractive as a character. I don't particularly like Heyer's plotting in BT as she makes both hero and heroine incredibly unsympathetic as a result.

So, I've now finished it, and the last section made me revise my opinion of the book. That, and the feedback from folks here. :) I can see now why they paired up as they did. I don't blame Serena any more than Hector, who really had no idea who she was as a person. At least Serena was chosing a man like the one all of society told her she should want. I also understand the problem of breaking those ill-advised engagements, especially for Emily. (view spoiler)[ I do like Mr. Goring for her. He seems to understand her weaknesses without pandering to them. (hide spoiler)]

It wasn't until Ivo's ward showed up that I began to really like Serena and Ivo. By the end of the book I thought they were well suited. (They remind me some of Amelia and Radcliff Emerson, who always enjoy their arguments immensely. lol) Heyer managed to pull it off for me. Thanks to everyone for their input!

Also - I've just started rereading one of my favorite books, Austen's Persuasion, and couldn't help but notice the parallels of relationships broken up by family and then re-encountered years later. Anne and Serena are very different people, so the stories go in quite different directions, though.

I read BT some time ago ... what I remember is: when I tried to understand Selina's character, "English upper crust" came to my mind - more "upper crust" than in most of the GH novels. The political elite doesn't figure prominently in her work - most of her heroes from the peerage are not interested in politics, although the whole "London Season" was determined by and an accompaniment to the Parliamentary Session of the House of Lords. So I think politics must have been more prominent for the peers at the time (but I allow that it has no place in romance novels: it would inevitably lead to the serious political issues of the time and outside the sugar-coated lives of the 1 %)

This "English upper crust" character, for me, is based on an education where you hide deeper feelings at any price, even at the price that you lose contact with them, and misunderstand yourself. I found it hard to understand, being neither English nor upper crust, but an interesting excursion of GH into a social setting that is unusual in her work.

Great points, Sabine. I can see how the heavy political goings-on of the time would scrape the froth clean out of the romance.

Serena is rather bottled up, isn't she? Put the best face on, be strong, don't let others see that you're bothered. Especially the sentiment of wanting to remove herself from her childhood estate. No looking back, just move forward and do what needs to be done. The only freedom/release for her emotions is in fighting with Ivo. I do not love all four of the main players in this book, which makes it not a favorite of mine, I think I have only read it once.

I find it interesting too that when Emily's engagement is announced and Fanny is distressed about it, Serena says, rather harshly, something along the lines of how often it is that a clever older man ends up marrying some pretty fluffy unintelligent girl. And she is obviously thinking of her father and Fanny... (Serena even mentions at one point that she was sincerely sorry for Fanny in marrying a man to whom she was obviously completely unsuited).
Good point though, why did she and Ivo break up in the first place? I presume it really was one argument too many and in a rage she threw his ring at him and then neither of them could bring themselves to back down again and apologise.
As for kissing and so on, back before there was any sort of reliable contraception women would have been very cautious about going too far (even allowing for the opportunity) because getting pregnant really would have been the end - bad enough if you were poor, but for the nobility a disaster. I have a noble ancestress that this happened to (heaven knows who her lover was) and it appears that after giving birth (the baby was fostered by distant tenants) she committed suicide - poor thing was found drowned in the lake at the main family seat.