SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

what themes do these books/sagas share that make them the standard of sf?
(yes some people might disagree with the above statement, just go with it)

also a follow up: any other series/books that hit the same marks so to speak?

They all have... people in them?

Is this a homework assignment?

Dune and Ender are bildungsromans. Hyperion isn't one. That is the only common theme I can think of right now.

They are sf standards because they are each different archetypes. Dune for space opera, Ender for a child protagonists, hyperion for its narrative structure.

Staship Trooper is the archetype of military sf, Neuromancer is the archetype of cyberpunk. So they are sf standards, but they are very different from each other.

Trike wrote: "...Is this a homework assignment?"
yes.

Marc-André wrote: "Dune and Ender are bildungsromans. Hyperion isn't one. That is the only common theme I can think of right now.

They are sf standards because they are each different archetypes. Dune for space oper..."
first of all, you misspelled snowcrash.
second can you think of any other sf books that are bildungsromans, and come close to the vibe of dune/ender.

and i think i need to reread hyperion.

It's all about getting there first with a good plot and narrative I think.

Marc-André wrote: "Dune and Ender are bildungsromans.."

I don’t think Ender is one, either. He’s 6 when the story starts and ~10 at the end.

Trike wrote: "Marc-André wrote: "Dune and Ender are bildungsromans.."

I don’t think Ender is one, either. He’s 6 when the story starts and ~10 at the end."

But he goes through so much and is wayyyyy more mature than a 10 years old.

I’m not entirely convinced that losing one’s innocence in favor of cynicism equates with maturity. That feels like too simple a one-for-one substitution to me. A real coming of age has more nuance and more complex life experience.

I will concede this is probably splitting hairs.

Trike wrote: "I’m not entirely convinced that losing one’s innocence in favor of cynicism equates with maturity..."

*comes out for the hair splitting* I agree: it certainly does not. In fact, I'd argue in severe cases it's a sign of stagnation and of refusing to grow up.

for those who didn't know (I had to look it up):

a bildungsroman is a novel dealing with one person's formative years or spiritual education.
"the book is a bildungsroman of sorts, as Tull overcomes his abused childhood and learns about love"

I'd say Ender's Game qualifies. I'm not sure if Hyperion qualifies though.

Trike wrote: "I’m not entirely convinced that losing one’s innocence in favor of cynicism equates with maturity. That feels like too simple a one-for-one substitution to me. A real coming of age has more nuance ..."

I never said Card was a good writer.

CBRetriever wrote: "for those who didn't know (I had to look it up):

a bildungsroman is a novel dealing with one person's formative years or spiritual education.
"the book is a bildungsroman of sorts, as Tull overcom..."

Except that typically by the end of a bildungsroman the character accepts society and assimilates into it as a functioning adult. Ender doesn’t do that. Even if you include the rest of the books, his character arc is that of an outsider who stands apart and rejects society. That’s why I don’t think Frankenstein is an example, either, even though it’s sometimes included on lists of bildungsromans.

“Accepts and assimilates” doesn’t mean “agree with.” It’s that the character finds their place in the world. For me the more satisfying examples are the ones where they change attitudes slightly and most everyone else comes around to their way of thinking, but the more realistic are the ones where the character compromises and does things which might be considered hypocritical by more cynical readers.

if using that description, I'm not sure that the main character in Dune accepts nd assimilates - it's more like he took it over and molded it to his view of the world/univers