Reading 1001 discussion

Our June BOTM is Wise Children - Angela Carter. Our discussion leader is Pip.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS
1. What do you know about Angela Carter? Have you read anything else she has written? How will you read WISE CHILDREN? Hard copy, ebook or audiobook?
2. Carter is known for her Shakespearean allusions. Apart from the twins living on Bard Road and the family's Shakespearean acting history, what reminds you of Shakespeare's plays? Have you noticed any misquotes?
3.What bits did you find especially funny?
4. What does the Thames river represent?
5. Margaret Atwood wrote "In an age where you were supposed to be writing plainsong she wrote baroque. She was very ornamented, she was very lush". Find some examples of what Atwood meant.
6. Who are the wise children?
7. The year that Carter died, 1992, the Academy had 40 proposals for Ph.D. theses about her. Why do you think she was and is still so popular as a subject of academic study?

It may be of interest that Carter said of pornography "I don't think it is nearly as damaging as the effects of the capitalist system" and she wrote a tract about the Marquis de Sade called the Sadeian Woman. She called de Sade a moral pornographer because he knew he was a pervert and was upset by it and because he was not proselytising, and because he refused to see female sexuality in relation to sexual function. It is an interesting read.

I have a couple more questions for the end of the month.

Because it is July 1st where I live, I will start! I had never heard of Angela Carter and was intrigued when Tracy and Amanda said that they loved her books and both Kristel and Book said that they wanted to read her. I had bought an Audible version, read by Tracey Ullman (who is absolutely brilliant) before offering to moderate. As I usually listen while driving, it is not an ideal way to read carefully.

Pip wrote: "Because it is July 1st where I live, I will start! I had never heard of Angela Carter and was intrigued when Tracy and Amanda said that they loved her books and both Kristel and Book said that they..."

I am also listening to this version. So far the book reminds me a lot of Tipping the Velvet by Sarah Waters. The books feel a bit madcap and over-the-top. I had never heard of Carter before the list came into my life.

I have read Carter's Nights at the Circus and enjoyed it though it's not in the more serious tone and style of most of the novels I read; good for variety though. Carter has a third book in the 1001 list, The Passion of New Eve. Has anyone read that? A couple of my GR friends have read it and posted short reviews- seems to be quite bizarre.
I picked up my hardback paper copy of Wise Children from the library today- they had only the one copy and I had been waiting for the overdue borrower to return it. I have access to 4 public libraries and none had it in audio format.
In the first couple pages the novel seems to say that the Thames was the division between the upper-middle class and wealthy on the north side and low income/working class on the south side.
I've only read a few pages so will be back when I'm farther along.

I have not started reading yet but I can answer question #1. Other than what I read about Carter to vote for the July read, I know nothing about her. I am very curious having just read de Sade and the glimpse I have gotten here at 1001.

Also, I am likely to read a hard cover library book but I have yet to pick it up.

To answer George: I've read The Passion of New Eve- and while it is one of my absolute favorite list books so far and I want it turned into a movie- it is also arguably the strangest book I've read in my life (no hyperbole lol). I was secretly hoping people were going to vote for it: I would love to hear other people's reactions to it.

To answer the questions:

1. I hadn’t heard of her previous to starting the list-so I’m so glad I discovered her as a result of it! Her work- which is largely magical realism- pushes the borders of imagination and obscenity, and tends to explore themes of feminism, sex-positivity-social hierarchies, and social relativism. I’ve read all of her list books: Wise Children, Passion of New Eve, and Nights at the Circus. Loved them all. As mentioned, New Eve was my favorite. And while I liked Wise Children a lot, I liked the other 2 more. Read them all as hard copies previously (all on buses if I recall as well- though all in different cities lol).


2. Other Shakespeare references in the book include dubious and concealed parentage, inter-sibling conflicts (related to adoption specifically), plays within the narrative, their father sharing Shakespeare’s birthday etc.

3. The whole thing was kind of darkly funny, as I recall (read this months ago). I remember being particularly tickled about the backstory of Estella, and everything about Grandma Chance.

4. Seconding George’s point: This book is largely about the artifice of division between high and low art and people, and the Thames has historically represented a line of class separation.

5. I love this quote and it gets at- to me -what I find so endearing about her work: I tend not to be fan of minimalism unless I feel like it is especially thematically justified, and love whimsy and camp. The descriptions of the theatrical world, the extended and convoluted family trees, the description of the twins’ kitsch, and the ornamented family tree diagram which made up the inside covers of the version of the book I got all contribute to this sense of gaudy baroque epic.

6. I would think Nora and Dora given the insight they are gained into their family throughout the book. This phrase also appears in other Carter books, which I find pretty cool.

7. So many reasons: her work touches on so many topics of interest to academia: feminism, gender theory, fantasy versus reality, Shakespeare as a cultural icon, relativism, what constitutes high versus low art and how we draw that distinction. That’s what I love about this book: the way it uses the false understanding of the “legitimate “and “illegitimate” sides of the family to question the legitimacy of high versus low brow distinctions itself. The Shakespeare allusions play into that as well: once considered a low-brow playwright for the masses, Shakespeare has since been incorporated into our idea of high art. Carter’s books also frequently use the motif of the carnival- a campy and gaudy “low art”- as a vessel of academically respected literature. It begs the questions of who gets to evaluate the echelons of art and taste, and where and why we draw that line. And brings attention to how arbitrary it often is. As, after all, in the book, the “legitimate” side of the family also acts in despicable and transgressive ways, and is also tacky and excessive in ways that “high life” arguably often is in real life as well. I mean, isn’t “The Wolf of Wallstreet” ultimately as revolting to watch as “Deliverance”?

I think the evaluation of De Sade is interesting, but I can only half agree. He was ahead of his time, arguably, by writing about women’s sexuality outside of the context of procreation and duty to men. I wonder what passages she would have used to suggest he was upset by his own perversion though, because in Justine and his life story he certainly didn’t seem like it. Also, even though he writes about women and sex outside of sexual function- he still seems to write about them in respect to servicing of men’s needs- just for pleasure and torture instead of procreation. I would ultimately agree with her that capitalism is more damaging to the status of women than pornography. But, in a capitalist society, pornography is highly commodified and exists in the context of capitalist exploitation, like any other form of entertainment. I would argue, that due to this, pornography still plays a role in maintaining patriarchal culture as it exists now.

1. What do you know about Angela Carter? Have you read anything else she has written? How will you read WISE CHILDREN? Hard copy, ebook or audiobook?

I listened to the audiobook, and enjoyed it. This is my first read by Ms. Carter, and I knew nothing about her prior to this.

2. Carter is known for her Shakespearean allusions. Apart from the twins living on Bard Road and the family's Shakespearean acting history, what reminds you of Shakespeare's plays? Have you noticed any misquotes?

I don't know Shakespeare well enough to pick up on any of this. For some reason this book reminded me a lot of Sarah Waters' Tipping the Velvet. It felt a bit madcap and silly like that one. I felt like I was watching a bawdy victorian musical when reading both of them.

3.What bits did you find especially funny?

I thought the entire book was funny. The way the one twin talked about the other, the silliness of the grandma, the discussion of the men...

4. What does the Thames river represent?

I only see the class divide with this.

5. Margaret Atwood wrote "In an age where you were supposed to be writing plainsong she wrote baroque. She was very ornamented, she was very lush". Find some examples of what Atwood meant.

It felt madcap, slapstick, gaudy, silly... I like the word "lush." Very apt.

6. Who are the wise children?

???? Not sure. Must be the twins.

7. The year that Carter died, 1992, the Academy had 40 proposals for Ph.D. theses about her. Why do you think she was and is still so popular as a subject of academic study?

I think this book is very academic. I would actually like to have a class where a professor guides my learning on this one. I think there is way too much that I missed. But the themes of feminism, family, gender... The Shakespeare parts that I missed. The discussion of pornography and prostitution...

Amanda, that was an amazing post on the book and I enjoyed reading it.
I got started a bit late so I'm trying to read more from Wise Children than from some of my other current books so I will finish in a couple weeks.
There certainly are a lot of characters introduced very quickly, aren't there? My copy has an appendix at the back with brief notes on the characters which Carter realized would be helpful, so I thank her for that.

I am partway through chapter 2 of Wise Children. I am reading a hardcover copy from the library. It is the 2nd book by Carter that I've read. I read Nights at the Circus over 10 years ago. I enjoyed it in all its oddness.

I have finished with this wonderful bawdy, sad yet somehow life affirming tale.

2. Carter is known for her Shakespearean allusions. Apart from the twins living on Bard Road and the family's Shakespearean acting history, what reminds you of Shakespeare's plays? Have you noticed any misquotes?

The themes are very Shakespearean including that of ambition, greed, betrayal, a great deal of mistaken identity, fortunes changing on a dime, the jester and the fool (George and Puck). The play of sisters against the wishes of the father in King Lear is of course central to the Hazard line.

3.What bits did you find especially funny? I just loved the elements of joy in the book - "what a joy it is to sing and dance" but also the way people were forgiven and taken care of: Lady A. being a big recipient of generosity and the sisters themselves being a recipient of Peregrine's generosity.

4. What does the Thames river represent?

The dividing line between the haves and have nots but in this case that does not just refer to money or class but to those with a father who recognizes them and loves them.

5. Margaret Atwood wrote "In an age where you were supposed to be writing plainsong she wrote baroque. She was very ornamented, she was very lush". Find some examples of what Atwood meant.
Okay here is a moment of what could have been seen as tragedy and articulated with concise plainsong woes but for Carter it came out: " ...we made it to the window before the tapestries went up, which they did with a whoosh whilst we hand-over-handed it down the ivy, bringing down a deluge of snow with us. Only when we stood once more upon the lawn, chilled to the marrow, singed at the edges, half frozen cod, half barbecued spareribs, did I recall that the fire had got not only my 'weird sister' outfit but also his waiter's money suit, so we were 'naked as nature intended'..."

6. Who are the wise children?

The wise children were those who knew who their father was or more pertinent to this book (as opposed to the quote) those children who knew who they were in the greater scheme of things. Those who had someone to love and someone to love them and could rejoice in life even if there were times when "I sometimes wonder why we go on living".

7. The year that Carter died, 1992, the Academy had 40 proposals for Ph.D. theses about her. Why do you think she was and is still so popular as a subject of academic study?

She stands against the modernist literary trends of the day. She is bawdy, bouncy and big instead of every word being a crisp self reflection on the act of writing. However, she still wrote great literature, not just fun tales as she covered some very modern themes even if she did it in a very festive way.

One thing outside the questions was the Hollywood portion of the book which plays on the fact that film captures and freezes time. 'Irish' O'Flaherty could have been a stand in for Liam O'Flaherty who went to Hollywood to work on a film but it is more likely a combo of O'Flaherty, Bertholt Brecht (who did write a book "Hollywood Elegies"), Fitzgerald who hated Hollywood but went there to make money as he was so broke and Nathanael West who wrote the Hollywood story "Day of the Locust". I actually thought this portion of the book was less fun.

1. Before reading this I had heard of Angela Carter and her works and I was interested to read her. I read a paperback from the library.

2. We had the play within in a play, we had long lost children reunited with their father and the girls are entertainers. Just thought we also have people falling in love with the wrong people over and over again.

3.I love Dora's descriptions of other people in the novel and the nicknames the twins give people. My favourite character was probably Wheelchair - The Lady Atalanta she sure had class.

4. North and South of the river represent the differences between the characters, the haves and the have nots. Although the twins on the wrong side of the river may not have wealth they have something more important compassion and understanding.


5. Lush is the perfect word the novel is full of colour and scenery, it is over the top and like a carnival.

6. In terms of the book I found this quote " We're both of us mothers and both of us fathers, ' she said. They'll be wise children alright." This is about the mysterious twins that Perry produces right at the end of the book.

7. I think there is a lot going on in her books that would be interesting to study.

Favourite quotes:

"if the past weren't deeper than the sea, more difficult to cross."

"But he kept insisting on forgiving me when there was nothing to forgive."

"He was also faithful, and where he loved, he never altered, nor saw any alteration."

"He was not the love of my life but all the loves of my life at once"

1. Angela Carter, British author. This is her last novel and she was do with lung cancer. I read one other, The Bloody Chamber which is short stories and along the lines of modernized fairly tales. I enjoyed this one much more. I listened to the audio read by Tracey Ullman. What a fantastic job she did. I also had the book which I got from ILL.
2. There is a lot of Shakespearean references in the book of course. I did not catch all of them, Probably not even many of them. But names were often Shakespearean. Also the twins birthday, the father and his twin brother and Shakespearean all shared a birthday date. Her books generally have 5 chapter divides and Shakespearean plays often had 5 act.
3. Funny --
4. Thames river represents the high brow/low brow class division.
5. Carter liked to write with magical realism, fairy tales and carnavalesque styles. Definitely not plain.
6. A wise child is one who knows his father.
7. Her works have a great deal in them that make for good thesis material. This one had topics such as the nature of fatherhood, natural father, legal father, guardian.
Symbols often sexual/Freudian such as grandfather clock; the absent father, the phallic symbol, flawed in that it did not chime on the right times. Finally the pairings; twin boys, twin sisters, names Chance and Hazard, legitimacy and illegitimacy and themes of incest.

I agree with many of the comments above. Especially agree with Amanda's comments on de Sade.

1. What do you know about Angela Carter? Have you read anything else she has written? How will you read WISE CHILDREN? Hard copy, ebook or audiobook?
I've read this book once before, but none of her other books. I know she died young. I read this via audiobook.

2. Carter is known for her Shakespearean allusions. Apart from the twins living on Bard Road and the family's Shakespearean acting history, what reminds you of Shakespeare's plays? Have you noticed any misquotes?
A few Shakespearean plays are mentioned, including A Midsummer Night's Dream and King Lear. The structure of the novel also has some similarities to these plays.
I am not proficient enough on Shakespeare to recall any misquotes.

3.What bits did you find especially funny?
I found the whole book funny.

4. What does the Thames river represent?
It is a dividing line between different levels of society, similar to that of train tracks (i.e. "the wrong side of the tracks"). They lived on the wrong side of the Thames.

5. Margaret Atwood wrote "In an age where you were supposed to be writing plainsong she wrote baroque. She was very ornamented, she was very lush". Find some examples of what Atwood meant.
The language and imagery of the book were both quite lush.

6. Who are the wise children?
As other mentioned previously,

7. The year that Carter died, 1992, the Academy had 40 proposals for Ph.D. theses about her. Why do you think she was and is still so popular as a subject of academic study?
I think part of it was her premature death during the height of popularity in her writing career. She became somewhat of a literary urban legend in a similar way to Virginia Woolf. I think this academic fervor would be lesser, or at least postponed, if she were still alive today.

1. I have previously read the short story collection The Bloody Chamber, which I think is amazing - a dark feminist twist on various fairy tales - and I've seen the movie The Company of Wolves, partially based on some of those stories, and where Carter wrote the screenplay.

I have Wise Children in print, a Vintage edition with an introduction by Ali Smith.

I don't know the details of Carters life, but I know she was a bit eccentric, and lived exactly how she wanted to live. I think maybe there's a fair bit of Carter herself in Dora?

2. I'm not steady enough in Shakespeare to have noticed any misquotes, but the whole book is constructed along the lines of a Shakespearean comedy in five acts, with mistaken identities, romantic obsessions, madcap adventures, everything coming to a boil in a grand finale.

3. I found the whole book quite funny, my type of humour exactly.

4. Ali Smith points out that the book is about duality from start to finish, so I guess that's what the Thames is about as well. It divides a city into two halves. Geographically, socially, and economically.

5. I wish I had read the questions before I read the book! But honestly, almost every page would probably yield something lush. And the whole novel is baroque. So many tangents and curlicues, so much presented in a flash to be more fully explored later.

6. Maybe the newborn twins at the end, since that's what Nora says about them, but Ali Smith is of the opinion that Carter uses the word "children" in it's original dialectal meaning of girl. She quotes from A Winter's Tale: "Mercy on's, a barn; a very pretty barne! A boy or a child, I wonder?" So in that case I guess it should be Dora and Nora who are the wise children. I agree with Kristel that a wise child is one who knows her father. Dora and Nora spent their whole lives yearning for their father who rejected them. Perry was a better father for them. Saskia and Imogen, on the other hand, never knew. And they were certainly foolish. In the end Melchior is perhaps the wise child for finally knowing his children. I don't know. It's quite convoluted, isn't it?

7. Carter is different. She writes about women and in a way that is simultaneously flamboyant and gritty. She's colourful but never glossy. She alludes to the literary masters and knows exactly what she is doing when she plays around and throws convention to the wind. She's an interesting writer. I'm pleasantly surprised that there is so much interest in her from academics. She certainly was never mentioned when I studied English Lit.

It is the end of the month for me and I am delighted with the responses to my questions. Listening to the book meant that I missed out on the geneology and character list, which would certainly have helped me keep who was who on track. But I have had a difficult month and maybe it was just my inabiity to concentrate. I loved the Shakespearean similarities which you have all mentioned. I noticed that the bird at Melchior's feast, the night of the fire, looked like "an upstart crow". That was a famous quote from Robert Greene attacking the new playwright, Shakespeare. The quote about not altering when alteration found, is from my favourite sonnet "Let me not to the marriage of true minds admit i mpediments" and I am sure there were many other misquotes but the one that registered with me was "to butter, or not to butter, that is the question" which is, of course, a misquote from Hamlet. No wonder academics enjoy discussing her books! My final questions were going to be first about the theme of division: affluence and poverty, high and low culture, but Amanda has covered that all so well in her response. The other question was to be "Did you find that Carter challenged the definition of identity and origin in a way that was meaningful to you?" Being someone who found out who her father was at the age of seventy-five I was naturally intrigued with Carter's handling of the questions of what constitutes paternity. Very Shakespearean!

Pip wrote: "It is the end of the month for me and I am delighted with the responses to my questions. Listening to the book meant that I missed out on the geneology and character list, which would certainly hav..."

Great catch with the "Upstart Crow" reference, Pip! I missed that one on first reading, and I think it's great. It really does reinforce the high vs low art motif with regards to Shakespeare as well.

I'm glad everyone else picked a Carter book for this month, and that you picked great questions for this book- I had a lot of fun with this discussion.

This was my first Carter book, and I enjoyed in her interesting writing. It is a funny, vivid novel and I rated it 3 stars. Although I read Shakespeare, I am not familiar with his quotes that much, for obvious reason of not being a native speaker of English. This is where I learned a lot from your comments. Thank you all!!!

Thanks, Amanda, your responses were brilliant. I really want to read a hard copy of this book sometime, despite Tracey Ullman's brilliance - but I probably won't - too many books, too little time.

Pip wrote: "Thanks, Amanda, your responses were brilliant. I really want to read a hard copy of this book sometime, despite Tracey Ullman's brilliance - but I probably won't - too many books, too little time."

Aw, thanks Pip :). I'm actually kind of disappointed I read the book in hard-copy now: Tracey Ullman is hilarious (and like you I probably won't go back to experience the other medium- too many unread books!)

There is a film adaptation coming later this year and there was a stage production in England earlier in the year https://www.odeon.co.uk/films/wise_ch...

So who will be watching this one?