YNAB Book Club discussion

Grab a copy, start reading, and join the conversation.

The first time I read this book, I read it in a workgroup. We were focussed on effecting some societal changes, so that was my perspective. This time, I'm reading it with the consideration of how am *I* going to change. Very different!

Mind if I join in? I have the book in my nightstand. I've read it before and I've been meaning to give it a re-read.

Missbee wrote: "Mind if I join in? I have the book in my nightstand. I've read it before and I've been meaning to give it a re-read."

GO for it. Whether part of YNAB or not, I welcome insight regarding other's experiences reading the book, and maybe even instigating some of the changes it inspires

Ok so now I have to get the book...This will be fun with all of you, and we can related to YNAB, which brought us all together in the first place. Yay.

I am most interested in changing my personal habits. I have tried many ways but have rarely stuck with it. I tend towards distraction. I make lists and then don't look at them. That leads to self-disappointment because I didn't get anything done. This book has been on my list for a long time. Thanks for starting this, y'all.

This feels other-worldy, seeing all of you in a different place!

Just called the library and they'll order it. 2-3 days. I'll call my DD when school is over to see if they have it over there so I can get it sooner.

I am in! I think I can borrow the book online. But if not I can hold it at the library.

Got here via the YNAB forums. I'm in! I've just gotten a copy of the book on my Kindle. Can't wait to start!

Missbee wrote: "Mind if I join in? I have the book in my nightstand. I've read it before and I've been meaning to give it a re-read."

Please, join in! No rules on whether this is your first read or your twenty-fifth. Grab your book, start reading, and add to the discussion.

Soooo, hi all. I'm in! Now, I suppose I'll have to go buy the book.

As Wooly mentioned, she and I will be keeping the book discussion threads tidy to (ahem) laser-focus our wit on the Book subject! Please check out our "digs" - we've created off-topic discussion "rooms" for everyone's enjoyment. Feel free roam around, chat about other things, and get to know each other elsewhere in our group space. Let's keep comments in the discussion threads about the book.

Since we're all just arriving and searching for copies of the book, there is not a set discussion schedule. Right now, read and comment on your own pace. We'll see how things shake out once everyone has the book.

(If you've posted here off-topic and do not see those posts, this is why.) **Especially you, Mesmoiselle - thank you for responding to everyone. I know some of your posts were lost in our effort to be tidy, but your helpfulness to everyone is appreciated! We're trying to keep the random trees away so our discussions don't get lost.** :)

In the first chapter, it talks about self-control as being an exhaustible resource. I had never thought about self-control in those terms before.

This should be a very interesting read.

Angie, I thought that perspective on self-control was interesting, too.

I really, really like the "Finding the Bright Spots" section. This was important the first time I read Switch, because we were looking at a similar programming structure (i.e. limited staff / no budget) to the Thailand example.

But it gave me several hours of thinking tonight. Applying the concept to me, personally, and my life is going to be illuminating. In the hecticity of my life, I think it is important to spend some time identifying my bright spots. I'm going to process and internalize this message before I keep reading.

My comment got lost. I'm going to try to recall it.

I thought the healthcare CEO speech was epic. Got choked up about it and read it out loud to my husband. Hadn't heard a speech like that since the movie Independence Day.

I work in healthcare and it had never occurred to me that the beds hadn't always been 35-45 degrees up.

Also, the creation of a "path" or modifying your environment to guide change is part of what has made it easy for me to create habits in the past. In the case of the habit, "I want to always put my appliances back in the cupboard after use" I had to make a permanently empty space for each appliance. If I had to move spices and cups and knick knacks every time, I would never have succeeded at such an easy task. Now I succeed 95% of the time and the other 5%, it's an easy (but later) task.

With this in mind, I put in a TP cardboard roll bin in the bathroom. They always fill up the regular trash and I want to recycle them anyway. Bam. 3 days later, no TP rolls in the trash. And set up a different laundry basket for my limited work clothes.

Angie, I thought the limited self-control was fascinating. Looking at it as such is kind of mind-blowing. All day today, with each decision, I wondered if it was taxing my self-control ;-)

Longstockinggirl, the "bright spots" thing is something I've come across in my own life. As I was reading that part in the book, the first thing that popped into my head was the SHE system and CHAOS. Over the years there have been a few "bright spots" in my house; areas that stay organized without effort while despite my repeated, strenuous efforts other areas have never been thoroughly cleaned/organized even once.

Bobby's story fascinated me.

Mesmoiselle, I haven't read far enough into the book to have a reference for your comments but the concept of "modifying your environment" brings to mind the Tiny Habits email course I took after Jesse talked about it on the YNAB blog.

This guy's premise was that the reason we have such trouble creating new, good habits is because we see good habits as a product of willpower. But depending on willpower is destined to fail. Because we all know that, even more than self-control, willpower is an exhaustible resource. So the idea behind Tiny Habits is you tie the new habit to a trigger, not willpower. So the trigger leads to the desired habit and almost no willpower is expended.

I had to give my copy of Switch back to my library so I am going off of memory now. The concept of "bright spots" was new to me. I have several areas of my life that I want to change so I am working on making a list of my bright spots. I find that the more I put structure into my life, the more I plan, the better my life fits me. I have always been a go along and figure it out kind of person so planning doesn't come naturally to me. I wish I had some of these ideas earlier.

The bright spots scenario definitely stood out and I also found a good set of thinking fodder from the idea of the different sized buckets influencing behaviour. Especially when they pointed out that without all of the data, analysts could have come up with ideas about the people's eating habits that were erroneous.
I think a way to apply this to my own life is to see if I am being judgemental about situations without having all of the parameters clearly defined.
A dual approach would be to look for the bright spots and also to look for the 'bucket size scenario'.

I liked the bucket experiment, too, Lydia. It made me think - I'm not much on *fresh* movie popcorn ... so I doubt I would have eaten any. But there are foods I really enjoy that I probably would gobble right up. Realizing this caused me to think about exactly what you said --

to see if I am being judgemental about situations without having all of the parameters clearly defined.

Great way to put that!

I'm living with the visual image of the driver, the elephant, the path. It's very powerful. I'm quite often the driver, trying to figure out how to motivate the elephant. I love this analogy and shared it recently with a colleague who needed it. Wanna hear a funny thing? I'm listening to this book via audible. Truth: the book -- hard cover -- was already on my shelf :)

I found an article on NY Times that goes along with the self control examples. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/opi...

My biggest take-away from the article is that those most successful in exerting willpower either changed the thing they were trying to avoid in their mind (ie cookie became wood) or distracted themselves.

I don't have the full book yet, but I did find a free podcast interview with the author. It's from a parenting podcast, so has a bit of a bias to that topic, but I found it really interesting even so:
http://mojomom.blogspot.com.au/search...

He talks about the elephant/ride/path analogy and about bright spots.

The elephant and the rider is also a very apt description and like cynewbie's experience it brought a lot of clarity to my daily struggles between my emotional side and my rational mind.

I think it is a lot harder to work any 'Switch' on yourself and you can't trick yourself into being motivated. I need to find something that truly fuels my passions and can drive both parts of me forward towards that common goal.

Thanks for the interesting perspectives, everyone! I'm going to start (re)reading the book again tonight, hopefully!

Chip and Dan Heath have a website with lots of free resources, including their one-page summary of the key points of "Switch." Here's the link:

http://heathbrothers.com/

I've been able to make some personal changes before but mostly by changing my Path. My Rider is very strong, and I forget the Elephant a lot. But when I change my Path, that's when I've most successfully changed habits that have stuck.

I have now downloaded the Heath brother's Switch framework pdf to my computer, and need to reference it! If I could attach it to this comment, I would, but don't see a way to. If there is, please let me know and I will.

I read about decision paralysis yesterday and it was eye opening. I keep thinking of different scenarios in which I just can't make a decision, even though it should be an easy choice. For example, when I have too many work projects, I can't always make a quick decision about which one to start next, and I waste valuable minutes debating. Since starting YNAB, I often find myself unsure of which financial decision is best, and spend a lot of time debating. Or, I can't make a decision, and end up contributing to multiple things instead of focusing on one thing.

I see this a lot on the forums too. People aren't sure what exactly to do when they first start. It makes sense why financial gurus such as Dave Ramsey and Suze Orman are so popular. They provide step by step instructions to guide people and help them avoid decision paralysis.

I wasn't sure I was going to enjoy this book, but when it started mentioning social experiments right away, I knew it was going to be good. Some of the studies I'd previously read about in Dan Airely's books on the economics of decision making. So a lot of the concepts are familiar, but the application is different.

I too feel very strongly about the Rider and Elephant metaphor (I love metaphor that you can look at from a variety of angels and it still holds up). In my case, my Elephant is the stronger beast. I'm much more likely to let it run loose and hope for the best.

I'm still in the first chapter, but I'm working on my eternal problem of getting up. By now, even my rider says screw it when the alarm goes off and I don't want to get up. So I'm looking for the bright spots and hoping to figure out a way to shape the path and make it easier for both me and the elephant.

So I am about 70lbs overweight and I really don't like myself. I have a strong rider, but an even stronger elephant. Elephant wants ice cream, plain and simple. My rider is a planner, and it knows the elephant is head strong. So, I shape the path as well. I make it easy for the elephant to go the right direction. None of the bad foods are in the house, plenty of the good foods.but it's a crazy elephant. It'd rather sit on it's butt and go hungry than follow the path clearly before it. It doesn't like No, and it doesn't care how easy something is. And it will literally ignore the path (not eat anything) until the rider, near dizzy from lack of energy and tugging, will go ahead and give the elephant what it wants. (Not always ice cream. Usually dining out or some semi healthy salt and oil laden processed food.)

I either need therapy or I need to go about this a different way. I've tried different plans with different paths. But, looking back on bright spots, it's always the 1% changes that built up over time to 100% changes that stuck with me to today.

Time for something different. I've been chewing on the 1% idea. But I couldn't come up with a 1% change. I eat as little bread as possible, and when I do it's the healthiest sugar free wheat bread I've found in town. In baking, I replaced all oil and eggs with applesauce and flax seed. I even water saute, there is no oil for regular cooking purposes either. The whitest food I have in the house is potatoes (which I rarely eat. Mostly hubby eats) and brown rice noodles. I go through so much brown rice in my house, 4-6 labels a month for 3 people and a dog. I buy convenience food only for special occasions and for my "grocery dine out".

The one thing that would make me drop the pounds the most is a decrease in restauranting combined with the total removal of ice cream. I'm all or nothing. If I eat crap, it makes me crave more crap, so I really have to cut it out entirely, or not bother. Even with the financial restrictions in place on me, I still feel well off enough to give myself 3 pints of soy/coconut ice cream a week. So, will power, and a lower income, and a strong desire has not shifted my elephant.

I may have stumbled on an idea though. Who knows if it'll work.

But it's this. If I get a craving for ice cream, drink 32 oz of water. And if I still want it, have it. There is no No. There is just: drink all this water (I love water) and have ice cream (or other edible thing) if you still want to. My elephant is motivated to get (good edible) so it's going to shrug at the water. But. Just maybe. My cravings for ice cream have more to do with dehydration and the feeling of an empty stomach. And just maybe, this 1% change will become a shift towards wanting less.

Herisff & ynabber553 -- thanks so much for telling us about the Heath brothers' Switch framework download. I found it here

I'm just popping in to say that I'm having a hard time getting started because I've learned one thing about myself in this process: I hate reading books on a tablet. I downloaded the ebook from my library and I just can't stand the interface. I don't like the light coming from the book. My eyes hurt and I zone out. I'm going to have to go to the library to get the actual book. Y'all will probably be done reading by that time, so I'll read it on my own later. In any case, it's a good lesson to have learned about myself. I like real books.

@Mesmoiselle I've started my own attempt at tiny steps.

I've argued with myself all the time about doing things I know I want to do and losing. Basically my elephant is quite set in her ways and my Rider has given up.

What I was interested in reading this book was seeing how to motivate the elephant to do what the rider wants. I would love to wake up on time in the morning, but I hate waking up (I also hate going to bed which doesn't help).

From reading the book it was important to get the elephant emotionally involved and on board with my plan to wake up. I know how poorly I do at bribing or tricking my elephant with promises of coffee or other things.

So I'm trying a more subtle approach. I painted a pretty picture for my elephant of what mornings would look like (If a miracle happened and I no longer struggled to get up). "Just imagine never hearing another alarm clock."

Then I tried to find an easy step to do first. Something that would be a hard and fast rule. Computer off by 11pm. We'll have to see if this helps.

Lydiaynab wrote: "The elephant and the rider is also a very apt description and like cynewbie's experience it brought a lot of clarity to my daily struggles between my emotional side and my rational mind.

I think i..."

I think yes and no. Awhile back I started posting the amount of my EF. I promised myself that if I WAMed from it I would confess to the forums. Several times I have wanted to spend that money but I have left it alone because I would be so embarrassed to post about it. Apparently my elephant is passionate about not being embarrassed.

Oh man. I'm so far behind! I ordered the book from the library - hoping it will be here before the weekend so I can catch up!

I've read it and now I'm dwelling on how I can use this to, like Rae, get up out of bed in the morning. The ways that I have tried thus far have failed. I will, however the elephant is strong, succeed.

Thanks to those who picked this book to start with.

I'm loving this book, listening to it on my way to the office daily. (Am I the only "Audible" reader?)

Resonating most right now: the concept of "bright spots." Also, "lowering the bar." I'm carrying the bright spots concept over to a workplace situation; as for lowering the bar, we all know I'm all about those big bodacious goals but reality is that they happen incrementally. Often, I set the bar too high (with an unmotivated elephant!) and then it bites me in the butt because I focus on the failure along the path rather than the successes.

Lucky me, I have a road trip next -- lots of "reading" (listening) time!! This is one book I may well listen to a second time. That's rare for me. But it's that good.

I feel like I should read this book twice. Maybe I have issues, but this book gets me all emotionally choked up. The kid that asked, "You mean I don't have to be dumb?"

Growth mindset sounds like a powerful thing

I definitely plan to read the book again and see what I can apply to my own growth.

I am very happy that this was chosen for the first book club book, it has already given me a lot of new perspectives on how to judge situations and how important your environment and point of view is when it comes to succeeding at goals that you have set yourself.

Angie wrote: "In the first chapter, it talks about self-control as being an exhaustible resource. I had never thought about self-control in those terms before.
"

I have always known that moving and moving and moving again has caused my enjoyment of life to diminish. I knew that having to find all new doctors, new friends, figure out which grocery stores I like, where to go for clothes, and all those choices was just too much. I envied people who had been in one place their whole lives. But, I also resented their judgments of me because I knew that all this change caused me to be overwhelmed, less productive, and "behind".

I never thought about the side of self-control. I totally agree that self-control might be exhaustible. However, I do wish they had used a different study to verify it. In my mind, the students were all hungry. We know that hunger affects our ability to think. Radishes do not provide much in the way of protein or squelching the stomach rumblings of a college student. So, I'm not positive this study proved the point. In fact, I'm sure that we might find lots of evidence that self-control can be tremendous if the elephant is in charge and there is a strong emotional reason to have self-control.

Still, I do believe that using a lot of self-control is exhausting. I wonder if it could be like building callouses. The more you practice something, the more you develop some type of ability to withstand it.

Longstockinggirl wrote: "I really, really like the "Finding the Bright Spots" section. ...Applying the concept to me, personally, and my life is going to be illuminating. In the hecticity of my life, I think it is important to spend some time identifying my bright spots."

I was very intrigued to read about Bright Spots. I needed that. I tend to worry and fret and bring up all the things that need to get done. It is so easy to see the "F" or the things left on the floor or the homework not done. I want to focus on the great things my kids do. I really need to evaluate how to do this and still guide my kids to the things that need to improve."

I also want to think hard about my own Bright Spots. I know there is a lot that I need to do to combine this with S.H.E. I know there are things that I do well. I need to figure out how to translate that to the areas in my life that I want to improve.

Mesmoiselle wrote: "If I had to move spices and cups and knick knacks every time, I would never have succeeded at such an easy task. Now I succeed 95% of the time and the other 5%, it's an easy (but later) task."

This is so true! I've always said that it is very important to make things extremely convenient if we want it to work. I need to think about how to do this in my paperwork hoarding stacks. How can I make it easier to make the decisions for that when I'm overwhelmed by all that involves?

Right now, there is a storm-door lying on my floor that makes it hard to move around. That will hopefully be installed this week. Then I think I'll try to set up some sort of sorting system. I'll have to think about how to apply some Bright Spots that I've learned to make this work. I think a mentor that understands would be great, but it seems that most the people who are good at it were born good, and they don't understand I can't do it the same way. I'm overwhelmed and there are too many decisions. Maybe that is the first step. I need to pick one decision. Only think about working using one criteria. I don't have to sort or pitch everything, just something using one criteria - like the 1% milk. I don't agree with the 1% milk choice since I believe fat is healthy and stops cravings (I think carbs and sugar are the enemy), but the method of changing a habit is sound and worth trying.

Wooly wrote: "Over the years there have been a few "bright spots" in my house; areas that stay organized without effort while despite my repeated, strenuous efforts other areas have never been thoroughly cleaned/organized even once.
So the idea behind Tiny Habits is you tie the new habit to a trigger, not willpower. So the trigger leads to the desired habit and almost no willpower is expended. "

You hit the nail on the head for me, Wooly. My kitchen stays pretty good, as does my bedroom. But the office area? Nope.
I definitely believe in the triggers being key. It's like brushing your teeth. Would you ever pick up your toothbrush and not reach for the toothpaste or soda or whatever you do?
Those women in Vietnam that searched for prawn and crayfish while they worked the rice patties had a trigger. Look for food while working.
I think eating the popcorn during the movie was a trigger, too. We become conditioned to eat while we watch. There are studies that show that people gain more weight if they watch TV while they eat because they don't let their brains know that they are full. I wonder if our eyes are the trigger. Empty plate equals full. That would explain the portions part of the popcorn experiment.

AliciaP wrote: "I read about decision paralysis yesterday and it was eye opening. I keep thinking of different scenarios in which I just can't make a decision, even though it should be an easy choice..."

Decision paralysis. Yep, that is a problem. I like that term.

Rae wrote: "@Mesmoiselle I've started my own attempt at tiny steps. Waking up in the morning..."

This is a struggle for me, too. Rider, Elephant, and Path are all confused and tumbled around. This would seemingly be easy, but it is full of many issues - will-power, conflicts with space, time, and resources in the family, health, etc. I need to re-read this with the thoughts of getting up in mind.

I've tried the computer off at a certain time, but I invariably break the rule for many different "valid" reasons. That is a tough one. I think a lot of it is because it does take will-power, and I've used mine up many times during the day. Not sure how to fix that one.

I just read about Script the Change. I really liked the way the ALL company picked something important and kept those 4 main directives in the forefront. That is very applicable to both YNAB and to SHE. I can see how that can help me both in my plan for our money, the day's agenda, and for creating habits or triggers.

It is a bit like Covey's 7 habits and Longstockinggirls value summit, too, I think. I never did it, but I think that creating a plan for your life - like a business plan, that lays out your values and your goals can be very effective. Somehow, though, I never got to the point of actually doing it. Maybe it was decision overload? Maybe it was not having DH on board? I'm not sure.

I am glad I read this part, though. We are in the midst of trying to make some major decisions and I've looked over my budget a million times trying to make decisions. It all seems so confusing. But, maybe the problem is that we haven't set out rules to guide us?

AliciaP wrote: "I found an article on NY Times that goes along with the self control examples. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/opi......"

That was a great article, and very pertinent to this book.

My favorite quote, "“We don’t need to be victims of our emotions,” Mr. Mischel says. “We have a prefrontal cortex that allows us to evaluate whether or not we like the emotions that are running us.” This is harder for children exposed to chronic stress, because their limbic systems go into overdrive. But crucially, if their environment changes, their self-control abilities can improve, he says.

Self-control alone doesn’t guarantee success. People also need a “burning goal” that gives them a reason to activate these skills, he says."

"His secret seems to come straight from the marshmallow test: distraction. “It’s to keep living in a way one wants to live and work; to distract constructively; to distract in ways that are in themselves satisfying; to do things that are intrinsically gratifying,” he says."

I found another article on decision fatigue, with a few studies done to back up the data, if anyone is interested. http://www.slate.com/articles/busines...


Basically, the studies point out that too many options is counter-productive, and more likely to result in a lack of decision made. At one point, the article recommends narrowing down choices, and even goes as far as to suggest a random computer generated answer. (you can input a question into a website, and get a random yes/no answer). I think that part is a little silly, but I agree that narrowing down options is helpful. I often do this (subconsciously) when I have a lot of choices to make.

@AliciaP Thanks for the link to the article.

When I was younger, I had more difficulty making decisions. I was terrified of making a bad decision; now I realize that most decisions are not life or death so after during some research to narrow my choices, I just make the call. It's a lot less stressful and if that decision doesn't work out, I can make another decision.

There's a few books about decision making that I've read and enjoyed:Dan Ariely's Predictably Irrational: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions and Jonah Lehrer's How We Decide. (Yes, I know he got in trouble for his latest book but this was written earlier and hopefully is still valid despite the controversy) and now this one!

They all show similar studies about how decisions can paralyze us from slightly different viewpoints. Ariely looks at decision making from an economic viewpoint and focuses on showing how we're not always rational about our decisions and when that happens. Lehrer talked more about the process and when lots of choice and research are good and when it just hurts us and had some really interesting studies mentioned in it (like the jams and radishes).

One thing I really liked about this book was the focus on how to make all sides work for you. The other two are more about understanding, this one helps you take that next step based on that understanding.

On that note I've been 90% good about turning my computer off at 11pm. I need to add another rule about the iPad because I've been using it to read articles instead...at least it's not a video game? But I have noticed I do get up easier. I'm not at the fabled 'no alarm clock' scenario, but my elephant still believes it's possible, so we're on the right track.

I'm only about half-way through Switch and wondering if anyone else is still reading. I'm going to start Chapter 7 on Grow Your People.

The book couldn't have been a better match for all the things connected to YNAB and other areas of our life. I kind of wish I had my own copy so I could highlight things. Some of it seems like just plain common sense, yet I have difficulty remembering helpful insights when I really need them.

I absolutely love all the detailed examples, but somehow the main theme of each chapter gets lost in the details for me. I can't seem to remember the main gist of each chapter after I've moved on and flipping through it doesn't reveal topic sentences. I've had a little trouble keeping the meaning of the elephant straight in my head. But, my head is never straight! I'd kind of like to go through and give myself an outline of the main points and the most important details to me.

I'm sure part of the problem is that I've not been consistent in reading everyday. I am hoping to fix that by next week. I need to be like Rae and have a set time, though.

Pg. 261 "Everything can look like a failure in the middle." ..."real change, the kind that sticks, is often three steps forward and two steps back."

I hope this is where I am now - in the middle, cause I sure feel like I've taken two steps back in lots of areas, especially in S.H.E.

I just finished reading Switch the other day. I wanted to finish it before I started the next book.

I always confuse myself about the elephant vs. the rider, so in my mind, I just call them the emotion vs. the logic. So basically, instead of appealing to someone's 'elephant', you're appealing to their emotions.

This was definitely a great first read. I'm trying to apply it to my work life as well as my personal. I'll have to remember to go back to it in the future. I'm sure a re-read would be as eye-opening!