Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

Bilbo's actual name was Bilba, Frodo's actual name was Maura. Peregrin, Aragorn, Eomer - all these names are translations from Westron to Ænglisc, Westron word for Westron is Aduni and this language is what linguo-constructors call "semitoid". Tolkien has "translated" the actual names for people and places to make LOTR accessible for the reader, and some think it was redundant. From the other hand, Le Guin's "The Left Hand of the Darkness" has at first been rejected because of "illegibility of the names". I still manage to swallow Vladimir Harkonen and Paul Atreides in 23'rd millenium AD (possibly because that's a book I grew up on), but their contemporaries called Jack Smith / Vova Popov seem to be just disgustingly unrealistic to me.

Yet, de gustibus non est disputandum. So, how much should an author adjust the names of her/his fantastic reality to make it desirable for You?

P.S. Sorry for being biased, but it would be really nice to know the opinions.

I'm always an advocate of lexicons. Teach your reader how to pronounce them. Or, in the case of languages that cannot be pronounced by our tongue- provide a translation (like 'She Who Rides With The Wind'). I do not like changing a name to be easily pronounced anymore than I like shortening a name, just because you're too lazy to say all of it.

I have a friend who's name is Jorge, but he introduces himself as George. Your mother did not name you George, so I'm not going to call you George. I have another friend who's given name is beautiful, yet she chose the American name of 'Phyllis' when she came here, because she thought that would be easier to pronounce. Once we found out her real name, we would only call her that, to show her that her name is not unpronounceable in America.

If they aren't desirable - it might not sell as well. And selling = more money. And more money = able to write more. So I would say it's a pretty delicate balance.

I personally don't phonetically pronounce names as I come across them in reading. So having a WTF-how-do-you-pronounce-that name isn't a big deal. But if I'm reading a high fantasy novel, I do expect the characters to be named something other than "Bob" or "John". I want fantastical names that fit with the world and times (might explain why so many paranormal romances uses the - or a variation of - name Damian).

The only names that annoy me are ones with apostrophes, those really get on my nerves.

I think an author should be consistent, if you're going to use made up names, then make them all up - don't give me Dorimoki and Junifeto and Bob, all from the same family or whatever.

Michele wrote: "The only names that annoy me are ones with apostrophes, those really get on my nerves."

That doesn't bother me. In some languages- it is a vowel. In others- it is a pause. Just teach me how to say it and I'm good to go. And I don't think that part matters overly much- after all there is a Pern movie in the works, and half of those names have apostrophes in them.

Michele wrote: "The only names that annoy me are ones with apostrophes, those really get on my nerves...."

A year ago, Grammar Girl did a piece on Apostrophes in Science Fiction and Fantasy Names. I think she blamed it on Hawai'i become a state (1959).

As Jim pointed out last time I mentioned that, the main Martian character in Zelazny's A Rose for Ecclesiastes is M'Cwyie. And by coincidence, that's our just-chosen October short story discussion.

Natalie wrote: "I have a friend who's name is Jorge, but he introduces himself as George"

Same with my friend Giorgi (Gogi) from Sakartvelo. Yes, Sakartvelo, Suomi, Hellas and Aotearoa, for the God's sake!

As for myself, it's like Spanish Hola!, you simply add [k] on the front.

Michele wrote: "The only names that annoy me are ones with apostrophes, those really get on my nerves."

Mostly put there on the purpose to MAKE the names illegible! BTW, David Peterson, the creator of Dothraki, argued that "th" sounds are very uncommon among the natural languages, but overused in scifi/fantazy. In the movie's Dothraki there are only three exception words containing "th"-sound, all of them because they appeared in the book, and Khal actually has trouble pronouncing the word throne, getting something more like tR-Ron.

If there are a lot of characters with long, similarly spelled names that I can't pronounce, I usually get confused & that doesn't help the story. As I recently said in another topic, I do pronounce names phonetically when reading. I didn't mention that I might not (often don't) get them right, but that's OK since I'm talking to myself. I won't read a key to figure out proper pronunciation, even though it's very important for my reading comprehension, especially if there are a lot of characters. I don't want to learn a new language. I suck learning languages. I just want to enjoy a story.

I agree that far away times & places should have names that aren't the norm in my world. They should be different from each other & easy to pronounce. I don't particularly care if it's 'Bilbo' or 'Bilba', though.

Natalie wrote: "I'm always an advocate of lexicons. Teach your reader how to pronounce them. ..."

Jim wrote: " I do pronounce names phonetically when reading. I didn't mention that I might not (often don't) get them right, but that's OK since I'm talking to myself...."

One technical trick I've come to like using my Kindle is that if there's an audio book available, Amazon will offer a free sample of their "immersive narration" read along for the first few pages. Useful for clues on how to pronounce names (I've always cherished the illusion audiobook narrators get pronunciation hints from the author.)

It's good to have some notion of pronunciation when you go to talk SF/F with similarly inclined friends.

G33z3r wrote:

A year ago, Grammar Girl did a piece on Apostrophes in Science Fiction and Fantasy Name..."

I think it's unjust for Hawai'i, for it's an actual glottal stop there. As to Muad'Dib, the actual Arabic word is mu`addib (with ` standing for `ain, the same consonant as in the word `arab) and it means precisely "the one who teaches basics", Freemen's "instructor-of-boys" (with `adab being "literature" of AFAIR "literacy"). In fact, `ain is normally omitted in Latin transliteration of Arabic words - with an example just given - so the true intents of Herbert putting apostrophe between the double d remains obscure too me. Possibly, it was done for the sake of obscurity :)

G33z3r wrote: "One technical trick I've come to like using my Kindle is that if there's an audio book available, Amazon will offer a free sample of their "immersive narration" read along for the first few pages. Useful for clues on how to pronounce names (I've always cherished the illusion audiobook narrators get pronunciation hints from the author.)
"

Don't rely on that. The narrator of the Song Of Ice and Fire books (Game of Thrones) frequently changes pronunciations of character names within the same page, chapter, and book. He's already pronounced Arya, Sansa, and Brienne three different ways multiple times. It always throws me for a loop until I figure out who he's talking about. He's even mispronounced Cersei a couple of times. I think a lot of it is that he gets ahead of himself, but he doesn't go back and correct it- he just keeps moving.

I love it when an author takes a modern name and makes it exotic. Arik instead of Eric, or Gini for Jenny. I get the illusion of a separate language without the actual challenge of a new language. But I don't let complicated names slow me down too much. If I love a story and the characters I'll put up with all manner of complications.

From the writer point of view, you have to throw your reader a bone. To have many characters with very similar names is unkind; dyslexic readers have problems if too many characters have the same first initial even. The writer goal should be to make the work something like a slip 'n' slide. You open the book, read the first line, and you cannot escape, sliding right down the slope into the story. This always has to be balanced with Art questions ("But all my characters -have- to be named Sherman, it's thematic!").

Jim wrote: "I agree that far away times & places should have names that aren't the norm in my world. They should be different from each other & easy to pronounce. I don't particularly care if it's 'Bilbo' or 'Bilba', though."

Maybe it was in an effort to make sure the reader identified the name as male. In some languages the 'a' ending is feminine.

Natalie wrote: "Maybe it was in an effort to make sure the reader identified the name as male. In some languages the 'a' ending is feminine."

According to Tolkien's notes, it was exactly that effort.

I would have certainly thought Bilba to be a female name. Too many years of Spanish classes.

Brenda wrote: "From the writer point of view, you have to throw your reader a bone. To have many characters with very similar names is unkind; dyslexic readers have problems if too many characters have the same first initial even."

Granted, but yet no one prohibits the writer to make non-standard yet distinguishable names. For what I know, a protagonist in a play or a movie is to be dressed distinguishable from the extras. For me, I'd rather confuse Sally for Jenny as their names are typical, than, say, Xidhan with Orgobo.

It would be really interesting for me to learn, how You make people and places distinguishable, if everything we *see* are just strings of letters.

I'm okay with an occasional apostrophe, but here's the beginning of the second sentence in a book I just bought,

"P'tr wit 'Whix spared one eye to read..."

I mean, c'mon! Really? I think he's an alien but still...!

Apparently he's just 'Whix as the story goes on, but I almost chucked the book right there.

And then there's those Wi'tch books /sigh

There is a deeper thing to names. (If you have not read it, go read WIZARD OF EARTHSEA by LeGuin.) The name of a character should in some way express what he really is. The Victorians were long on this, with characters name Hartright or Murdstone, but they had a truth by the tail. Names are not just interchangeable labels. They express, or ought to express, an inner truth.

And therefore it behooves the writer to give those names real thought. (Also, =always= put a made-up name into Google and see what pops up. If it's an X-rated term in the street slang of southern Silesia, you want to know.)

Brenda wrote: "There is a deeper thing to names. (If you have not read it, go read WIZARD OF EARTHSEA by LeGuin.) The name of a character should in some way express what he really is."

That's an interesting thought on true names applied. But there's a question I've had for several years regarding the euphony of the names: what if I wish to call my heroic protagonist, say, Shagrat, and my rotten villain, say, Legolas?

Brenda wrote: "There is a deeper thing to names. (If you have not read it, go read WIZARD OF EARTHSEA by LeGuin.) The name of a character should in some way express what he really is. The Victorians were long on ..."

And yet, sometimes that annoys me. Normally the character is named by their parents or guardians. How were they to know (again, generally) their child would start on a grand adventure that would in some way or form incorporate the meaning of their name? Or have the name they chose because it sounded good be symbolic of their growing-up?

I'm actually all for names that DON'T have special, story-related meanings. Not completely against them, mind you, but it's a nice change. Of course, a lot of people love symbolism, and names are a perfect way to do it...

Brenda wrote: "From the writer point of view, you have to throw your reader a bone. To have many characters with very similar names is unkind; dyslexic readers have problems if too many characters have the same f..."

YES, Brenda. Exactly!

Well clearly the person makes the name -- gives it its meaning. You know that Mrs. Hitler probably had the highest and most tender hopes of her little baby guy when she named him Adolf. And you've heard the joke about the Marine sergeant who yelled to the recruit, "I want you to out there and make Schlablotnivsky a name to conjure with!"

And someone has written a book in which Shagrat (or his brethren) was the hero. Mary Gentle, GRUNTS.

Brenda wrote: "Well clearly the person makes the name -- gives it its meaning... And someone has written a book in which Shagrat (or his brethren) was the hero. Mary Gentle, GRUNTS. "

Yet Shagrat in "The Grunts" remains an orc, with Tolkien's stereotypes possibly relativated but not set aside.

But what if we take a blank page, a brand new and pretty serious scifi/fantazy world. How likely is that you will read or write something about a wise and beautiful Nurshamsans encountering treacherous hordes of Aitions? Surely, such black-and-white pictures came out of fashion today, but nevertheless.

Again, it's just interesting how deep the rabbit's hole is.

You need to read more widely. There is an entire epic with Utnapishtim as the hero (Gesundheit, you reply!) He tells his story in the Epic of Gilgamesh -- he was the proto-Noah.
You can prove that the coolness or attractiveness of names is very changeable, by looking at those websites that display the trends in baby naming. Nobody names a baby Nancy or Lilias or Sherman very much any more. Why? Not because of any intrinsic value in the name. Fashion, merely.

Jim wrote: "If there are a lot of characters with long, similarly spelled names that I can't pronounce, I usually get confused & that doesn't help the story. .... I do pronounce..."

I don't usually pronounce, and my reading habits are perhaps sloppy in that I visually process names with something like: "Long name starts with A, short name starts with Z, medium name starts with Kh," that sort of thing, and I tend not to notice the rest of the name.

With me, it's to the point where in Cyteen I had to concentrate to distinguish "Jason" from "Justin". (And don't get me started on F'nor & F'lar.) Maybe I'm the only one who reads like that?

Brenda wrote: "You need to read more widely. There is an entire epic with Utnapishtim as the hero (Gesundheit, you reply!)"

Yes, and the name of Gilgamesh is written as Izdubar. A lucky scientist found the actual pronunciation on a margin sidenote made by a pedantic scribe. By the way, "nuur shamsi" is "sunlight" in Arabic.

But the question remains. If there are trends in baby naming and hence also in appealing names of whatever in fiction, then how much are we affected by the everchanging fashion?

For on one of Russian amateur writer's portal I've seen an opinion that "it is always better to use Russian names and traditions in order to make your fiction accessible (in Russian-dominated environment)". As it was a reply to my short story based in an alien world inhabited by semi-humans with a protagonist named Nchari, I'm unable to agree with that opinion. But there is still a grain of reason there, for familiar is indeed attractive.

So what do You think are the trends out there? And how closely is a writer to follow them? In Your opinion, of course, for everyone has their own :)

Sorry if my comments look mean, I really don't mean it, I just wish to learn :)

G33z3r wrote: "I don't usual..."

I used to read like that, but quit for exactly the reasons you mentioned.

I had a mildly dyslexic friend read a ms, and she had difficulty with Margaret vs. Marian -- she was also of the first-two-letters type.

Everything, frankly, depends upon your work. A work set in 1950 will have a different suite of names than a work set in 1850 or 2050, precisely because of the fashions that come and go in naming. Historical names you can look up on line; how to figure out what's the fashion in 2050?
Well, you could look at people likely to be famous then. I will bet you that George will be popular in Britain, because of Prince George; whatever his new sibling will be named will also be in style.
You could pick a ringer, a name that could not be logically deduced. Madison, in the 80s, is that kind of name -- popularized by Madison the mermaid in a movie. Elsa is sure to be boomy in the rest of this decade, thanks to FROZEN. So, the hit movie in 2030 starred (name here) and now in 2050 every third 20-year-old is named (name here).

I read like that, G33z3r! Robin Hobb has a Selden and a Sedric in her Elderling books. Both start with SE and have a middle D... it was problematic.

It's even worse with me, G33z3r. Just read "The land of crimson clouds". Although the authors do their best to make the protagonists distinguishable, I confused Alexey Petrovich, Nikolay Zaharovich and Mikhail Antonovich till the point when they finally became the hero, the boss and the guy-who-stayed-at-the-spaceship. And this is despite the fact that they've all had distinguishable second names.

Hard to pronounce "fantastical" words (or any word for that matter) I do find to be an annoyance, but I can live with them, particularly if the story is good. I usually just come up with my own way in pronouncing them if there's not something to teach me. Might not be accurate, but at least I don't have to pause each time I come across that word I struggle with.

Brenda wrote: "Everything, frankly, depends upon your work. A work set in ..."

Thanks for is a really nice advice, it would be nice to employ it :)

Yet, this works for a thing based in present, near future, documented past or alterhistory. When, however, we speak about imaginary worlds, then the trend will be based primarily on what the readers and writers will accept. Guessing by the answers in the thread, it is presently OK to give strange names to unusual people and places.

But I recall that E.R. Barroughs had an essay on naming in SciFi (can't find a reference, though), some kind of recipe book on "phonetic universals". It would be interesting to know how much are we still dependent on "proper" naming of unusual things.

As much as I enjoyed Mistborn: The Final Empire, the one thing that really bothered me was the wife's name.

Mare.

Maybe it was supposed to be pronounced "Mah-ray" or something like that, but every time I read it, I kept imagining a horse. A dainty, feminine horse, but still a horse.

I mostly care if the names make me feel stupid when I read them phonetically. I struggled with Wolf of the Steppes: The Complete Cossack Adventures, Volume One because the main character's name is Khlit. I also had a tough time with NyNaeve from The Eye of the World. I kept misreading it as "MyNavel" and giggling.

Phil wrote: "I struggled with Wolf of the Steppes: The Complete Cossack Adventures, Volume One because the main character's name is Khlit... "

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

>hoo boy<

LOL, Phil. Thanks. I needed a chuckle this morning.

I just read a short story (online: "Little /^^^\&-"), in which the inscrutable alien names are all strings of punctuation. (In addition to the titular /^^^\&-, there's —/-\*, ~#~~^~, *-##-n.)

It did not help readability. (What's extra annoying is the story seemed reasonably decent, except for the difficulty of keeping the characters straight.) Maybe I'll put it in a text editor and change the names to Bob, Mary, Joe & Alice, then read it again.

I really enjoy made-up names, even if they're hard to pronounce. In a way, I like unutterable names a little better, because then it's like a little puzzle on how you would go about saying the name. When I read high fantasy or such and see real names such as "Nathan," or "Jacob," or "Carter," it makes those characters stand out less than others with weird names, such as "Galadriel" or "Kvothe" or "Binbiniqegabenik." (From LOTR, Kingkiller Chronicles and Memory Sworrow and Thorn respectively)

Saul wrote: "Binbiniqegabenik"

That just made my brain melt. It's true though, that if you use normal English human names that your fantasy world, unless it's some kind of urban/historical fantasy based off our world, doesn't make any sense. I made a complaint in one review I wrote about a book that while using Latin names sound cool, there was no reason in the world that the dragons in this fantasy land should know Latin. If the names were in English I would have assumed they were actually in dragon-language.

Now of course all characters must speak English (or whatever language the book is written in...see The Library at Mount Char where we are frequently reminded they are in fact speaking Pelapi even though what is written on the page is in English), otherwise no one would be able to read the book. So having English words as a name would have been ok in that dragon example (Day of Wrath, instead of Dies Irae...and what were the parents thinking when they named their hatchling that?? They doomed him to be the villain, another eye roller since the protagonist had an equally heroic name)

I guess I don't notice too often if a book consistently uses real names, but it really stands out when all the characters are named "Galadriel" or "Kvothe" or "Binbiniqegabenik" but then suddenly a Joe pops in. I've seen that before and it's disconcerting.

G33z3r wrote: "I just read a short story (online: "Little /^^^\&-"), in which the inscrutable alien names are all strings of punctuation. (In addition to the titular /^^^\&-, there's —/-\*, ~#~~^~, *-##-n.)

It ..."

That kind of reminds me of the 2016 movie Arrival where the aliens communicate using complex inkblot patterns from their tentacles. Kind of a neat concept as far as introducing beings that use methods of "writing" totally alien (heh) to any human culture, but think that sort of thing can only be done successfully in movie format. In books if you're not using the alphabet you're writing in to "translate" names it can become a bit ridiculous (as the story you're describing sounds, lol).

NekroRider wrote: "That kind of reminds me of the 2016 movie Arrival where the aliens communicate using complex inkblot patterns from their tentacles. Kind of a neat concept as far as introducing beings that use methods of "writing" totally alien (heh) to any human culture, but think that sort of thing can only be done successfully in movie format.,..."

I was very impressed with how they did that in the movie Arrival. In Chiang's originally story the heptapod language is non-sequential, written all at once, as is their experience of the universe. "speech was a bottleneck because it required that one word follow another sequentially. With writing, on the other hand, every mark on a page was visible simultaneously." It's one of those things easier to write than to make into a movie.

In that case neither the author nor the director expected their audience to read the alien script, just to know it was different from human languages.

No one has mentioned the problem of listening to a book on audio without having a text and trying to figure out how the names are spelled. I tend to picture them in my head and later when I look up something about the book I am often wrong. I feel like I have to look them up before writing a review in order not to seem like an idiot. I love the series by Michael J. Sullivan but I don't think anyone would guess that Riyria is pronounced Rye-ear-a. He has a wizard who I thought was named Ezra Haddon. One of the characters thinks so too and calls him Mr. Haddon. But it's really something like Esrahaddon (not sure that's right, as I just saw it spelled 2 different ways on line.)

Robin wrote: "No one has mentioned the problem of listening to a book on audio without having a text and trying to figure out how the names are spelled...."

Amazon offers a free e-book sample of most books (and almost all books that also appear on their Audible.) I usually check that to get an idea of some of the character names when starting an audiobook. At least for the characters who appear in the first chapter or so :) (It's also a good way to obtain the obligatory fantasy map!)

Lately I've tried a few books with Amazon/Audible's "whispersync", that lets me quickly switch back and forth between e-book to audiobook. At least for books I'm really enjoying (since it does cost an extra $5-$8 to buy both.)


Robin wrote: " I love the series by Michael J. Sullivan but I don't think anyone would guess that Riyria is pronounced Rye-ear-a...."

I certainly didn't. Back when we were discussing Sullivan's novelette
The Jester in Speakman's Unfettered anthology, I commented on the free Audible promo version of that story and mentioned I finally learned how to pronounce Riyria.

I often guess pronunciation wrong. E.g., I learned how to pronounce Kushiel by attending a convention panel discussion that included Ms. Carey. (Apparently I was giving it an extra syllable. :)