The Sword and Laser discussion

The August pick will be The Poppy War by R.F. Kuang

I was pretty interested in this prior to March Madness and already own a copy. However some folks chimed in about how dark it is/trigger warnings.

I've tended to shy away from most dark fantasy lately, although I used to read a lot of it in the past. Hopefully I like it. I guess we'll see.

Glad I picked this one up when it was on sale a while back.

Thank you for the warning. I plan to skip this one.

I bought this before I knew about how dark it is. I think I'll pass for now. I've been re-reading ASOIAF and could use a break from the brutality.

This has been on my radar since I read Kuang's "How to Talk to Ghosts," and it's out in paperback. I appreciate the content warning, though.

This book is huge on Booktube. That’s how I first heard of it. I heard that it’s pretty dark and violent so not sure if I’ll be reading this one.

Ah, excellent, I’ve already read this one! Looking forward to seeing what everyone thinks of it.

I read this book back in February, and I really enjoyed it. But, I'm glad to see the pre-emptive content warnings- it certainly isn't for everyone.

This has been on my radar for a while. Never really felt like I was close to pulling the trigger and buying it.........but as it's the pick, I'll give it a go.

Yes, trigger warnings, although I wasn’t overly bothered by them, and everyone has seen me freak out over books before.

I don’t want to influence anyone’s opinion, but here’s my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

(Edit because I can not spell today.)

Nice! There was an ebook version available from my library, so will be reading along. Yay!

Also available as an audiobook from Hoopla.

Don't got a problem with dark or violent books per se, but I'm a bit fed up with the grim-dark, post apocalyptic and the dystopias.

I read this last year and I was a bit disappointed by it. I wanted to be much more affected by it than I was. Many fun and intriguing ideas, and a welcome willingness to explore dark themes and events, but overall the characters were shallower than I hoped, and the writing itself was a bit pedestrian.

I’m still very happy that more worlds and voices are being welcomed and celebrated in SFF, and I’m hopeful that Kuang will only get better as she keeps writing.

LA Public Library has it and I am #8 on 17 copies. Will give it a whirl. This one is well outside my usual wheelhouse but you never know. So was Jade City and that turned out pretty well.

A reminder...

If you are a Worldcon member this year, The Poppy War is in the Hugo Voter Packet. R.F. Kuang is a nominee for John W. Campbell Award for Best New Writer.

I too read this before and the next installment The Dragon Republic will be out Tuesday, August 6, 2019. It was a Kindle deal not too long ago so hopefully people jumped on it then. The problematic part of the book is based on a historical event, The Nanjing Massacre which took place during the Second Sino-Japanese War.

Stephen wrote: "The problematic part of the book is based on a historical event, The Nanjing Massacre which took place during the Second Sino-Japanese War. "

Yikes, very dark then. But having read in too much detail about so many real life atrocities, I don't think it will be an issue for me.

Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "Stephen wrote: "The problematic part of the book is based on a historical event, The Nanjing Massacre which took place during the Second Sino-Japanese War. "

Yikes, very dark then. But having read..."

Not as dark as it could have been.... considering the source material.

I have finished 🤗 next pick please 🥴

Troy wrote: "Also available as an audiobook from Hoopla."

Thanks for the heads up! Just downloaded it.

Got it in the Hugo pack so will finally read a pick at the right time.

As long as it's not as dark as The Cabin at the End of the World then I should be okay. I don't usually have a problem with dark, but that book had me depressed for days!

The author talks about writing the Poppy War In a YouTube clip: https://youtu.be/CRgPpIBQLpo

And as has been mentioned earlier, there is a really dark subject matter that is based on a historical event, The Rape of Nanking. There is no nice clean way to write about the genocide and rape that occurred in that time. And to tone it down even in a fictional fantasy setting would be an insult to the memory of the dead. It is not a subject talked about in Western History courses and the Japanese definitely don't mention it.

Now, I'm only a few chapters in and I'm loving the Chinese cultural and historical references right off the bat. R. F. Kuang uses her Chinese national heritage to great advantage providing little gems saying to me, she is from or writing about the same part of China that my parents are from.

Seattle Public Library says I can probably read this sometime in early October.

Your holds position: #54 on 13 copies.

I'll get there eventually, I suppose!

I think what set off some reviewers is that the tone of the book very suddenly goes very dark about 70% in and that shift felt, to some, artificial. I've not read the book, but that's the feeling I get from the people who didn't like the dark. In some ways that's realistic in the sense that a given setting can be isolated from the brutality of war and then, suddenly, it visits them very swiftly and completely.

@meaghan - the King County Library has a 3 week timeline for the ebook.

Rick wrote: "I think what set off some reviewers is that the tone of the book very suddenly goes very dark about 70% in and that shift felt, to some, artificial. I've not read the book, but that's the feeling I..."

Oh its dark from the beginning, it just goes midnight on a moonless night towards the end before diving into a black hole.

It does not, however, dwell on the gory details if I recall correctly.

Erik wrote: "Troy wrote: "Also available as an audiobook from Hoopla."

Thanks for the heads up! Just downloaded it."

You IL guys got me excited. It is not available on Hoopla through the LAPL.
10 weeks wait on Libby.

Due to the rumor that this would be the June pick I put a hold on it at my local library and am now 80% through the kindle edition. I really like the writing and am looking forward to finishing this and reading the sequel when it comes out next month.

I have reached the dark park and as Lain said above, it doesn't dwell on the gory details.

^ LA Public Library Overdrive has 5 people waiting on 17 copies for the ebook. Hop in line, you'll get it in about a week.

Rick wrote: "I think what set off some reviewers is that the tone of the book very suddenly goes very dark about 70% in and that shift felt, to some, artificial. I've not read the book, but that's the feeling I..."

I found the tone of the earlier sections not ‘light’ exactly, but quite YA-ish, and the story unfolds in a way which feels familiar to anyone who’s read other YA fantasy.

(Although the part where the protagonist gets her first period and immediately decides to (view spoiler)[ undergo a painful sterilisation (hide spoiler)] was kind of shocking)

Then it takes an abrupt swerve into much darker territory. The final quarter of the book has a lot of description of the effects of appalling violence (including sexual violence and violence against children), and the ending is... very effective but not easy to read.

So it would be easy to get lulled into a false sense of security by the early chapters, and then sucker-punched by the later violence. I’m sure this was what the author was aiming for, (after all the story is about young people moving from the rarefied atmosphere of a military training academy into the horrifying reality of war) but if you don’t like reading about the aftermath of atrocities, this book is not for you.

If you’re uncertain about whether to try reading this or not, I’d suggest looking at the Wikipedia page for the Nanjing Massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanji...
This is the real-life event which inspired the bloodiest part of the book, so it gives you an idea of what to expect.

I didn't mention it earlier so as to avoid being too spoilery before the group officially starts the book. But, yes, like others have said, the first portion definitely gave me YA, coming of age vibes but veers quickly into a dark, realistic exploration of the horrors of war and war crimes. Like others have said, the darkest part of the book is based on the Rape of Nanking. But, while these scenes are present, they aren't dwelled upon, so if you worry the whole book is like that, that isn't an issue.

Ruth wrote: "(Although the part where the protagonist gets her first period and immediately decides to "

This actually 'sold' the book for me, for from 'a person goes to magic school' cliche of YA it turns to more serious novel.

Potterheads are growing up and some become writers. It was an author event with V.E. Schwab that this fact hit me. She was talking about and later spoke about J.K. Rowling influence and the gateway literature to the Fantasy genre. Kids going to school as a plot device will be a numerous as a group of Characters going off on a quest or dirt poor orphan who is really the Chosen One.

Oleksandr wrote: "Ruth wrote: "(Although the part where the protagonist gets her first period and immediately decides to "

This actually 'sold' the book for me, for from 'a person goes to magic school' cliche of YA..."

I really appreciated the fact that the book dealt with menstruation, a topic which often gets ignored by books, although I found her solution... drastic. But certainly an interesting storytelling choice which revealed more about Rin’s character.

This sounds like it will be a interesting read. Hopefully I get it from the library before the end of the month.

Just want to note that I'm at the #3 wait list position on 17 copies at the LA Public Library Overdrive, and there is no one behind me. Jump on in! The book will be available soon.

So excited to talk about this book! And it is perfect timing, with book 2 coming out shortly. I'll pry skim book one to remind myself of the details and then use August to read book 2. This has been a good S&L year for me, with the picks encouraging me to continue in the series which is pretty unusual. So stoked!

This one has been highly recommended to me by friends! I'll probably purchase it since the hold time at the library is estimated at 17 weeks for ebooks.

I'm about 200 pages into it and it does revisit a few "hero's journey in school" tropes so far but extremely readable and enjoyable nonetheless. Looking forward to reading the last half and seeing where the story goes.

When this book was up in March Madness someone attached a page where the author writes why it is so dark and graphic. I see some the reasoning here. I understand that she wants it to be realistic to keep the story authentic but when the author stated that this is not for everyone and that it will be graphic, I knew I could not make it through it. I am sure it is a very good book but there are some topics that I just can't stomach it.

This was essentially a two-sitting read for me. I absolutely loved how the plot curve started firmly in the slightly dark YA territory then went essentially asymptotic. The book has precisely one likable character, and the subject matter goes from slightly dark Harry Potter to Full Metal Jacket and stays there.

I especially liked picking out the real world references (e.g. Nanking, Taiwan and of course Japan). That the author managed to get them through to me, a complete philistine who is mostly ignorant of the history in that region, is a testament to her skill (or possibly her persistence).

This is NOT a happy book, and I'm actually happy about that. Good stuff.

It just occurred to me that last year's S&L pick was Jade City, another Chinese fantasy. Whereas that owed a lot to John Woo gangster movies, this owes some to old wuxia films.

And is R.F. Kuang the youngest writer we've ever read? I think it was published when she was 21 or 22.

Robert wrote: "And is R.F. Kuang the youngest writer we've ever read? I think it was published when she was 21 or 22."

Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley was 21 when Frankenstein was published. She's probably the youngest we've read but I'm not certain. Where's our statistician?

Robert wrote: "It just occurred to me that last year's S&L pick was Jade City, another Chinese fantasy. "

I presumed it was not as much Chinese as South-East Asian. The fictional country is small developing nation in the 70s, not a communist giant

Mark wrote: "Robert wrote: "And is R.F. Kuang the youngest writer we've ever read? I think it was published when she was 21 or 22."

Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley was 21 when Frankenstein was published. She's probably the youngest we've read but I'm not certain. Where's our statistician? "

Mary Shelley is the youngest author we've read.

She was 20 years 4 months old when Frankenstein was published.
Born Aug 30 1797. Published Jan 1 1818

R.F.Kuang was 21 years 11 months old when TPW was published.
Born May 29 1996. Published May 1 2018

I am reasonably sure they are the 2 youngest.

R.F.Kuang is the youngest author at the time we read their book. She is 23 years 2 months old now.

Tassie Dave wrote: "R.F.Kuang was 21 years 11 months old when TPW was published.
Born May 29 1996. Published May 1 2018"

Damn, I'm only a little ways in, but I'm already annoyed at her for being so good so young. How very dare she!

Tassie Dave wrote: "Mark wrote: "Robert wrote: "And is R.F. Kuang the youngest writer we've ever read? I think it was published when she was 21 or 22."

Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley was 21 when Frankenstein was published.
Born Aug 30 1797. Published Jan 1 1818

R.F.Kuang was 21 years 11 months old when TPW was published.
Born May 29 1996. Published May 1 2018

I am reasonably sure they are the 2 youngest.

R.F.Kuang is the youngest author at the time we read their book. She is 23 years 2 months old now. ..."

According to Wikipedia, Harper Voyager acquired her book on her 20th birthday. Quite a birthday present.

I enjoyed the beginnings much more than toward the end. There were just a few too many places where things started to become contrived. Eventually finishing the book became a chore I was happy to have finished. I won't be picking up the next in the series.

Just finished it today. Absolutely loved this pick!

The Dragon Republic comes out tomorrow; perfect timing. :)