The Sword and Laser discussion

Cracked the book open today, am at about the 15% mark.

So, first things first, I'm not sure how this book is classified Fantasy. It's so obviously based on China that I think of it more like an Alternate History book.

We've got a barely-disguised Sun Tzu's Art of War, down to the famous Concubine story. Japan is easily identified. The Speerly seem to be Taiwan (although I wouldn't swear to it.) Poppy wars feature in China's history. The Mongol invasion, eventually subsumed into China. I haven't seen a lick of Fantasy yet so I'm thinking of it like a sideways-reality book. Not sure if Fantasy elements will come up later, but by this point in Harry Potter they were all waving wands around.

Pretty good use of Chinese history, it's hard to miss the major references. Not just Chinese influence though. The "pig carrying" bit is right out of Greek mythology, with Milo the wrestler starting by lifting a baby calf every day, until as it grew he gained in strength until he could lift a full grown bull.

The bit with her first period is kind of weird. (view spoiler)[I felt like that was right out of the Black Widow backstory in Avengers, where she was sterilized. The whole thing was a bit puzzling, but fit the character. (hide spoiler)]

I can't speak to specific Chinese prejudices, but the "power begets power" bit seems to fit humans everywhere.

Now, as to the Martial Arts bit...(next post)

I loved the part where the MC is trying to learn martial arts out of a book. That is EXACTLY what it is like.

A little history to explain. I did martial arts for a decade, starting in college. A Japanese martial art called Shotokan. Our particular organization in college would have students work on one kata (form) per semester, which you'd then present at your belt exam. The first five katas are referred to as the Heian forms. They involve a lot of vigorous leg movements and arm waving. You learn technique, yes, but also build up strength.

I went away for the summer after my first year of this and studied in a related but different group. Got introduced to the next phase, the Tekki kata. Those use a horse stance, named after how you would ride a horse: legs spread wide, feet straight ahead.

I liked learning more advanced stuff and had a head for it, so would ask more advanced students to tutor me. But, back to college for my second year of Shotokan, we were lacking in senior instructors and most of the fellow students didn't know the more advanced katas.

Which is how I wound up with a copy of our instruction manual, Karate-Do Kyohan: The Master Text, trying to teach myself Hangetsu. It's got intricate footwork with a pigeon-toed stance, some turns not well explained in the text, and some intricate hand motions (like a block / eye poke.)

I utterly failed to teach it to myself. When I finally learned the kata the right way I knew how little I had been able to do on my own. The bit where the MC tries to teach herself rang so completely true I'm pretty sure the author must have tried it herself.

The fantasy elements definitely come a bit later. But if you are at the point she is trying to learn martial arts from a manual it will be quite soon.

Yep, the first half is definitely making me flash back to my martial arts days.

(fair warning - several self indulgent posts to follow.)

That is the funniest and most accurate take on the Bodhidharma that I have ever seen. You could not have a more central figure to the Martial Arts than him. For unknown reasons he came from India to the Shaolin Temple in China. Finding the monks in poor condition he came up with a series of moves intended to allow gradual improvement. Those moves are now lost, but the tradition lives on in the many prearranged forms of martial arts styles.

It's also true that you can take the most important elements, break them down and teach the stripped version in a faster period of time. The style I practiced, Shotokan, started as an Okinawan martial art and was used by farmers. Well, aristocrats too, but lots of farmers. You needed something you could learn the essence of in a not terribly large number of years, as there were bandits all over the place and the locals weren't allowed to own weapons.

I can't speak for the experiences of others, but my opinion was that Shotokan stuck to the essence. Now, we had a GREAT Master Instructor, Tsutomu Ohshima, and he made sure you got some of the more esoteric stuff as you advanced. But at the beginning, it was the basic Katas, and lots of marching. Step forward and punch. Step forward and block. Step forward and kick. Step forward and...well, you get the idea.

The Shotokan we practiced included 19 katas. I have heard of branch groups having up to 43. Other styles have different ones of course, although you will find a lot of similarities even among nominally different styles.

Getting back to Bodhidharma...The gradual improvement, the practice of the same set of motions over and over again...all styles reach back to the Shaolin Temple for that. Without his influence we would have had fighting styles, but likely without the incremental methodology. And it works.

As for myself, I settled into an LA based dojo a year or so before making brown belt. It was about 20 miles from the Central Dojo where Mr. Ohshima taught, so we had regular practice at our dojo and special practices there, when he taught. Our dojo was known for a close-knit feel. We'd go out to meals together after practice, and watched out for each other at bigger events. We also had a streak of humor. So when I was tapped to write the dojo newsletter they were fine with my including "wrong answers to Zen questions."

Koans are the most well known Zen questions, used for meditation. For instance, "Show me your Original Face, the face you had before your parents were born.”

Another one is "Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?" The answer given is "Mu" meaning "nothing" or "no-thing" as in "null-ness." My Wrong Answer? "Woof."

But of course my favorite Wrong Answers to Zen Questions is the unanswered one: "Why did Bodhidharma cross from India to China?" Well, I flashed on a certain Chicken joke and said "To get to the other side."

I dunno why Jiang brought in the screaming ants. Never heard that one before. I think I would have liked the guy.

Okay, the fight...something is bothering me. Having done martial arts, I know it's true that women can learn to become great fighters. (More on that in the post below.) But it's also true that for the same skill level, the bigger and stronger person will generally win the match.

(view spoiler)[So my first gut feel was that Rin should not be able to win against Nezha. He's just too strong, too skilled. And yet...

...was he skilled? I'm supposed to believe that Rin summoned a god, and her Shamanic abilities allowed her to win. Actually, I don't think she needs that.

Nezha was born with privilege and has grown accustomed to the idea that no one can touch him. It's even explicitly done in Jun's class. Rin fights back and gets thrown out of class as a result. Nezha has strong attacks but little in the way of defense. One student took a shattered knee - painful, but given the social mores, better that than hurting the Dragon Warlord's son. Kitay surrendered, considered a strategic bolt of genius, partly because actually fighting him was such a social faux pas.

To win that fight, Rin need only let him overcommit and counter as he is off balance. It would be best to play the weakling and then counter all at once. Well, "best" doesn't usually enter into it when you're taking shots to the face, so chipping away at him is probably "best available."

Rin's been studying a pretty advanced art, and came to it without preconception. Her footwork is good and her techniques highly focused. I say she wins the fight on her own. No god needed. (hide spoiler)]

...and Jane. Have I told Jane's story here yet? Don't think so.

So, my dojo had friendly relations with the one in Little Tokyo. We would help them put on events and they'd reward us with a dinner. We recognized them at the bigger events regularly and socialized.

Practices tended to be organized by rank, so long around the time I made Shodan (first level of black belt) I practiced more with their advanced students. One of them was Jane. Nisei, (first generation born in the US) and all of four foot ten.

The entire Little Tokyo dojo practiced with an intensity not seen elsewhere. Jane was exceptional even among them. When I went to Nidan she was already there and had been for several years. That dojo never took a test unless they were well beyond it, and in my estimation Jane was well beyond the next step (3rd degree black belt, known as Sandan).

One day Jane got mugged in an elevator. Her attacker thought this small Japanese woman would be easy pickings. Surprise! She beat him so hard he tried to file excessive force charges against her.

So, relevant to the post above (view spoiler)[can Rin win the tournament? Well, if Jane is any example, yes she can. Certainly, speed and strength matter. And yet...

...on a day some 25 years ago, a mugger picked a fight with the wrong woman. He wound up on the floor whimpering in pain. (hide spoiler)]

I'm glad to see that when it comes down to it, Nezha (view spoiler)[isn't an asshole. I think I just saw the last of him. He went down bravely and honorably. (hide spoiler)]

Moving on now to the more fantasy elements. It's a little hard for me to suspend disbelief for these because the parts leading up to it were so realistic. We're getting into comic book territory and there hasn't been much to smooth the transition.

(view spoiler)[Jiang is like an ersatz Ancient One guarding Nikara with eldritch allies. I suppose that puts Rin in the position of Dr. Strange, but actually, it's more like Phoenix out of the X-Men. The stories match even down to the choice of death or accepting the Phoenix force. Anyway, the jump from just-this-side-of-the-real-world to gods and their vessels is a bit jarring.

Also, if I were to guess at this point of the book, I would say the gods are less allies than entities hungry to manifest, manipulating humans until they come asking for power. The Phoenix at least seems not at all friendly. And the Vipress is just plain chilling. Even Jiang didn't want to open the door because the eldritch beings were difficult to impossible to control once unleashed. (hide spoiler)]

I realize it's just a common phrase, but when they say "spontaneously combust" all I can picture is Spinal Tap's drummers going up in flames.

John (Taloni) wrote: "So, first things first, I'm not sure how this book is classified Fantasy. It's so obviously based on China that I think of it more like an Alternate History book."

I think Guy Gavriel Kay pioneered this kind of secondary-world historical fantasy, especially in The Lions of Al-Rassan, which takes place in essentially medieval Islamic Spain with the serial numbers filed off. But among other things it allowed Kay to have events that in reality happened decades apart take place over the course of just a few years.

Kuang's doing something similar, with the plot and recent history of the book taken from China's history from the First Opium War (1839-1842) to the Second Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945), but I read that she based the culture of Nikan on Song Dynasty China (960 - 1279), which is why the technology and society feel more medieval than modern.

Joe Informatico wrote: "I think Guy Gavriel Kay pioneered this kind of secondary-world historical fantasy, "

“Secondary-world historical fantasy” gives me some cognitive dissonance, but I get what you mean. I do think that particular type of story existed long before Kay; lots of Robert Howard’s stuff ticks those boxes, for instance. Lord Dunsany’s novels set in a magical medieval Spain probably also fit there.

Trike wrote: "I do think that particular type of story existed long before Kay; lots of Robert Howard’s stuff ticks those boxes, for instance. Lord Dunsany’s novels set in a magical medieval Spain probably also fit there."

Yeah, it's definitely not a precise science, but I'm defining "secondary-world" as "not-Earth, and not in any way connected to Earth". So Howard (the Hyborian Age is supposed to be a forgotten prehistory of Earth) and Dunsany (it's magical medieval Spain, but still supposed to be medieval Spain) wouldn't count, but they're definitely in the same territory (maybe the Dunsany is primary-world historical fantasy?). But I'm the guy who thinks genre is first and foremost a marketing tool so I'm generally pretty flexible on the details.

it gets a lot more fantastic once you get to the school but yes, it is a history rip with fantasy elements.

I also flashed on "secondary world" but only because I've seen reference to such things online. Heck, I didn't even know what a "trope" was until a few years ago. I can remember when "Science Fiction" was a catch-all that included Fantasy and no one even talked about subgenres. I brought it up partly because definitions have become so particular and it's important to deliver what the marketing promises. Anyhoo, at about the 50% mark the Fantasy aspect is coming on strong.

Another cross cultural thing: (view spoiler)[At first I found it odd that Altan made the declarative sentence "I am a soldier" as opposed to shaman. Then I remembered we're in a Confucian society that is big on defined roles. As I think about it, his self-definition is likely to be important later on. I kind of think he is limiting himself where Rin is not. He has control of a smaller ability where Rin is struggling with true power. (This is wild speculation based on a few paragraphs.) (hide spoiler)]

Joe Informatico wrote: "Yeah, it's definitely not a precise science, but I'm defining "secondary-world" as "not-Earth, and not in any way connected to Earth". So Howard (the Hyborian Age is supposed to be a forgotten prehistory of Earth) and Dunsany (it's magical medieval Spain, but still supposed to be medieval Spain) wouldn't count, but they're definitely in the same territory (maybe the Dunsany is primary-world historical fantasy?)."

I was thinking of Solomon Kane rather than Conan, but upon reflection I agree that those aren’t Secondary World so much as Alternate History, or perhaps Secret History.

Katherine Kurtz’s Deryni saga is probably closer to the mark, clearly being Fantasy and inspired by British history, specifically the conflict between the Catholic and Protestant factions. Gwynedd is clearly England, but there are no references to real-world locations.


John (Taloni) wrote: "I also flashed on "secondary world" but only because I've seen reference to such things online. Heck, I didn't even know what a "trope" was until a few years ago..."

I don’t recall the details clearly enough to know if Huang references real-world locations and history. Since you’re in the middle of it, does she use phrases like “Middle Kingdom” or “Middle Country”, or refer to dynasties/rulers of our history?

Trike wrote: "Katherine Kurtz’s Deryni saga is probably closer to the mark, clearly being Fantasy and inspired by British history, specifically the conflict between the Catholic and Protestant factions. Gwynedd is clearly England, but there are no references to real-world locations...."

Or if you REALLY want to set the Wayback Machine, William Morris' fantasy novels, such as The Well at the World's End and The Sundering Flood are set in a sort of medieval never-never land unconnected to any actual history or geography.

Well, I'm thoroughly nauseated. I think the author intends that reaction.

(view spoiler)[So much to unpack here.
* The graphic descriptions of the Rape of Nanking. I had read what had happened before, and was aware of the gory detail. Well, this was in even MORE gory detail and left me wanting to hurl.

* The Japanese equivalent of Dr. Mengele. Yep, that group existed.

* Rin essentially nukes Japan. The description of the clouds that looked like mushrooms. So the historical parallel continues there as well.

At about the 3/4 mark I was thinking of starting a few more threads. For instance, the way the book takes an abrupt turn at the 50% mark, turning a bit gory. The parallels to the X-Men, with Rin as Jean Grey. You could even argue that Altan parallels Wolverine: He's the best he is at what he does, but what he does isn't very nice. The Cike, fighting to save a world that doesn't understand them and even hates them.

But, I just can't. The book was just too graphic, too gory in the last 25%. It's overwhelming. It started out fun even with some hard scenes, and I enjoyed the training sequences quite a bit. What happened with those people and that training just threw me.

Maybe I'll feel differently in a few days. Right now, just wanted to put out my honest reaction before it fades.
(hide spoiler)]

Hm, looks like discussion has ground to a halt. Well, there's one new thread. Don't let me stop people from joining in there.

My reasons for stopping? (view spoiler)[The puzzling change at the halfway mark, followed by the grotesque violence of the final quarter, and then the puzzling "kill 'em all" conclusion.

I really enjoyed the first half, well documented above. But I want to point out, my involvement in Asian culture was through a *Japanese* martial art. And that art was brought to America by a Japanese aristocrat who had no real reason to give up his lifestyle. Tsutomo Ohshima was set for power, influence and money in Japan. Yet he came to the US, first to study economics at USC, and then stayed to teach Shotokan. In that he taught anyone who would show up and train. He had no hint of snobbery.

I met many Nisei along the way. In almost every instance they considered themselves ambassadors for their culture. They were embarrassed by World War II and wanted to show that that wasn't all that Japan was about.

R.F. Kuang's solution was to super-nuke Japan into oblivion. In her world my experiences would never have happened. Seven year old Tsutomu Ohshima would have died from the volcano the Phoenix unleashed. The parents of the Nisei I trained with would not have lived to immigrate.

The author says that we should remember atrocities such as the rape of Nanking. I don't see it as being forgotten. I'm well aware. I am assuming that everybody knows about it. Certainly the Japanese I met did, and were horrified at what their countrymen had done.

Larry Niven admonishes us not to confuse the beliefs of the character with those of the author. But it seems to me that the author does indeed identify with Rin. Rin doesn't even lose a friend over her actions. Kitay is cross at her but only that. The final part of the book justifies the actions of the Phoenix, damning with faint praise the argument against.

And if we are to talk about Japanese atrocities on China, what of the Chinese against themselves? So many were killed under the Mao regime that we believe it's 50 million people dead, but we don't know within a rounding error of ten million. Ten million! Will *that* show up in the sequel? Or mainland China's constant aggression against Taiwan, is *that* worth remembering?

What started out as a fun, if a bit stark, exploration of Chinese history and mythology has turned into a genocidal death wish against Japan. The first half of the book is thrown in the trash can by a revenge wish. It's just too much. (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, it’s incredibly simplistic yet overlong. Removing 150 pages would’ve done no damage to the overall story at all. It’s not like it would delete character nuance or anything.

John, I get the impression the author is setting up the question of whether you can be better than someone monstrous if you commit monstrous acts to stop them. I suspect this book can't be taken as a whole and requires the rest of the trilogy to get the full message.

Caitlin wrote: "John, I get the impression the author is setting up the question of whether you can be better than someone monstrous if you commit monstrous acts to stop them. I suspect this book can't be taken as..."

Agreed. Having studied Japanese and lived in Japan for a year, I definitely get the discomfort of that ending. In fact, in the overall way in which the Japanese parallels in this story were described there were times when I wondered if the author's real feeling were coming through, as John suggested. However, I do not think we are supposed to see Rin's actions as 'right'. I think the point is that in war, nothing is right. I'll be interested in seeing where this story goes.

I will also read the next one, although with considerably less anticipation than I thought at the halfway mark of the first book.

Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "Caitlin wrote: "John, I get the impression the author is setting up the question of whether you can be better than someone monstrous if you commit monstrous acts to stop them. I suspect this book c..."

I also agree. I believe we were meant to be uncomfortable with both major horrific events in the book. I think this is something that US-based folks don't really think about that much. I only learned about the Rape of Nanking because of this book. I grew up being taught that US actions taken during WWII were justified. I think this book is trying to challenge those assumptions, and doing a great job of it too.

Sarah wrote: "Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "Caitlin wrote: "John, I get the impression the author is setting up the question of whether you can be better than someone monstrous if you commit monstrous acts to ..."

Agree all around. I remember learning how (view spoiler)[ Americans weren’t shown images of the effects of bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki until Life Magazine published a few in 1952. (Nagasaki: Life After Nuclear War is a good read btw.) We are taught in school that 1) We are the winners, 2)We are humanitarians, because we "liberated" concentration camps and the bombs ended the war swiftly... I do think the author is planning on exploring whether the ends justify the means and whether you should use all the power you have access to, whether it’s shamanistic or atomic.... (hide spoiler)]

It's coming to the end of the month, discussion is about over...and yet, the more I think about the ending of this book, the more it bothers me.

I listened to the Dublin Podcast and while I understand Tom & Veronica's points, I don't agree.

I'm definitely with Veronica on the first half of the book. I was cheering how a young author could write so skillfully. There were a few bumps, like the over-obvious reference to Sun Tzu, but overall? Excellent work. And then...the second half.

Tom says that he finds that (getting into spoiler territory...)

(view spoiler)[interacting with the gods is dangerous and making deals with them can backfire dramatically. So far, yes. But what bothers me is the realistic history used before the Japanese genocide. The Rape of Nanking is a well known historical event. I recognized some specific atrocities from my knowledge of Asian history, and have no doubt that others are based on the historical record. The Japanese militia that committed the horrible Dr. Mengele style biowarfare, also historically true.

So I can't take the destruction of the islands as fiction. Rin has destroyed a real Japan with a real 70 million people in it.

Now, going afield a bit. I called it a "super nuke" above, but really, this is far worse. The deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were horrific. 90 thousand dead in Hiroshima and 40 thousand dead in Nagasaki, just from the blasts themselves. Double that from slow motion radiation deaths.

And if we had not? The Japanese were preparing to defend the islands by "arming" women and children with sharpened sticks. The death toll was estimated to be as much as 20 million Japanese, with a quarter million US troops killed in the action. The now 15 year old Tsutomu Ohshima, to later be Master Instructor of Shotokan Karate of America, the man who was so humble as to refuse to be called "Sensei" but required us to call him "Mister," dead on a beach with a stick in his hand, his guts strewn in the sand. And the same for the parents of many Nisei I was privileged to train with along the way. In the rough calculus of war, we saved lives.

The population of Japan in 1937 was 70 million. Rin exterminated an entire nation of 70 million people. Not the quarter million or so dead from the nuclear bombings. Not the 120 thousand dead in the firebombing of Tokyo, arguably worse though done with conventional weapons. An entire nation exterminated. And somehow the atrocities China had itself committed were dismissed...why? Is China somehow better? It's an ugly path to go down.

I'm also puzzled at the idea that Japan had no gods of their own. How did the "divine wind" spring up, not once but twice, to save Japan from invasion? At the least there should have been some wind gods opposing the Phoenix.

Unless there is some kind of time traveling god or a backwards living Merlin or Time from Incarnations of Immortality, this act is permanent.

So no, I can't take this is as just fiction. It's too real. The genocide ruined the book for me. (hide spoiler)]

And yet...

Are we to take seriously(view spoiler)[the genocide? (hide spoiler)]

Rin's story closely resembles that of the Phoenix from Marvel Comics. The Cike could be a version of the X-Men. If this is a comics book style take, then Marvel did play fast and loose. Specifically, Phoenix ate a star (view spoiler)[ and destroyed an entire race. (hide spoiler)]

As not everyone has been reading comics for as long as some of us, I thought I'd share. This is from the original Phoenix run.



Not sure if the pic will display well; original link is here, about a third of the way down the page:
https://io9.gizmodo.com/a-brief-expla...

The point being, Jean Grey killed several billion people and was never called to task for it. Always bothered me. It's like we can casually ignore their deaths because we know Jean but not them.

John (Taloni) wrote: "The point being, Jean Grey killed several billion people and was never called to task for it. Always bothered me. It's like we can casually ignore their deaths because we know Jean but not them."

She *was* killed by the Shi’ar after a trial for that crime.

Of course, she came back, because comics. (Also she was called Phoenix, so....) Maybe Rin will likewise be held accountable, but I doubt it.

Doesn't something similar happen in one of the Expanse books? Someone launches an attack on Earth that kills a lot of people and then others continue to work with them later as if it wasn't a horrific thing to have done?

John (Taloni) wrote: "It's coming to the end of the month, discussion is about over...and yet, the more I think about the ending of this book, the more it bothers me. "

I view it more of a What-If. What-if a deeply traumatised person had the power to strike back at those they see as being their persecutors. God like powers, trauma, anger and a setup that involved the planned extermination of her people.

The major problem is that these people died off page. They were treated as numbers and things, not real casualties. Which, is what happens in war. The othering of the enemy so that you can kill them without thought or sympathy.

Rick wrote: "Doesn't something similar happen in one of the Expanse books? Someone launches an attack on Earth that kills a lot of people and then others continue to work with them later as if it wasn't a horri..."

Yes it does and I lost interest in the series after that. Eventually I will finish them, but no rush until the series is complete.