Reading the Detectives discussion

Welcome to our August challenge read, Singing in the Shrouds - we are now on the 20th Ngaio Marsh/Inspector Alleyn book!

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

The Cape Farewell steams out to sea, carrying a serial strangler who says it with flowers and a little song. Behind, on a fogbound London dock, lies his latest lovely victim; and on board, working undercover to identify him before he strikes again, is Inspector Roderick Alleyn. But-with a collection of neurotic, bombastic, shifty, and passionate passengers at one another's throats-how long can he keep the investigation on course?

I did think this was one of Marsh's better books. The setting of the docks at the beginning,I thought was well done, and gave a sense of place. The limited number of suspects aboard a ship also helped. There were a lot of misdirections included, so was pretty hard trying to guess who was a murderer. It seemed obvious that the serial murderer was a male, but Marsh had thrown in a manly type woman and an effeminate member of the crew, widening the list of suspects, also a celibate priest

I thought this was a better Alleyn story. Like Jill said, Marsh created an immersive atmosphere, especially in the fog and on the ship. I do think that Marsh hated some women given her descriptions of Miss Abbott and Dillington-Blick. I was glad that I picked out the murderer before the end of the story when Alleyn had just boarded and was in the Captain's cabin explaining to him why he was on board. I kept in mind when he said '...He may be, and often is, a colourless little fellow who trots to and fro upon his lawful occasions for, say, fifty years, seven months, and a day. On the day after that he trots out and becomes a murderer. Probably there have been certain eccentricities of behaviour which he's been at great pains to conceal and which have suddenly become inadequate. ' Which helped me to narrow down the culprit after the characters were introduced/described; particularly at Alleyn's party.

Jill wrote: "I did think this was one of Marsh's better books. The setting of the docks at the beginning,I thought was well done, and gave a sense of place. The limited number of suspects aboard a ship also hel..."

Yes, I agree, she really used the red herrings well in this book to keep us guessing.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, about the effeminate steward Dennis, and the manly female passenger. With the audiobook I listened to, the narrator chose such odd accents to read those two characters, they bordered on caricatures! I thought that’s what he was trying to get across, but it was rather strange and frankly distracting, and I wasn’t sure.

ShanDizzy wrote: "I thought this was a better Alleyn story. Like Jill said, Marsh created an immersive atmosphere, especially in the fog and on the ship. I do think that Marsh hated some women given her descriptions..."

You did better than I did! I, too, registered what Alleyn said, but it could’ve been several of the suspects - I think she did a very good job shifting suspicion about! And yes, the atmosphere on the foggy cold docks, and then as the ship got closer to the tropical warmth, and things became oppressive (in more ways than one) was very well conveyed.

This was one Marsh book I could see rereading in future - but I wouldn’t listen to the audiobook next time!

I've just come across a Radio 4 programme, A Good Read, with a discussion of Singing in the Shrouds - I would suggest only listening to this after finishing the book, since I think it does have one or two potential spoilers! The discussion of the novel starts after 19 minutes 40 seconds.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b01...

Thanks, Judy. I have finished this now and I do like A Good Read. I thought Dennis in a dress was quite daring for the time it was written!

Judy wrote: "I've just come across a Radio 4 programme, A Good Read, with a discussion of Singing in the Shrouds - I would suggest only listening to this after finishing the book, since I think it does have one..."

Thanks, Judy, I enjoyed that.

Glad you both enjoyed the radio programme, Susan and Susan. I agree about Dennis in the dress being daring - I did spot it was a man immediately because of the way it was written, without the word 'she', but I didn't realise who the man was. The portrayal is quite negative and stereotyped, though, as with the other gay characters in Marsh books so far - but I expect we will see attitudes changing soon in this series as we move into the 60s.

One of the people on the radio show points out that the snobbish portrayal of the Cuddys is also pretty hard to take at times.

The character I found most interesting was the handsome priest, Father Jourdain - I was intrigued by all the references to him looking as if he hadn't always been celibate, and was wondering if there would be some shock revelation of his past and he might even turn out to be the killer, despite his alibi, but then it turned out I had got it all wrong!

I do think Marsh wrote it in the way that would lead you believe that there was more to the priest than there actually was. Cleverly done I thought.

I really enjoyed this book. The atmosphere was portrayed well, from the fog in London to the oppressive heat of the tropics. I found all the characters interesting and never guessed the murderer, nor the victim. Troy and Fox were referred to often enough to satisfy me.

Judy wrote: "Glad you both enjoyed the radio programme, Susan and Susan. I agree about Dennis in the dress being daring - I did spot it was a man immediately because of the way it was written, without the word ..."

I wondered about him, also, but just assumed since Alleyn took him into his confidence, he must not have been the killer. Silly to assume - that could’ve been a corker of a plot twist!

Although this book has a great atmosphere and interesting characters, I personally prefer crime novels where there is a secret motive to be discovered, rather than one of the characters being a serial killer who is mentally ill/haunted by incidents in childhood.

I know there was a lot of interest in this type of killing at this time, though - this book was published just a couple of years before Hitchcock's Psycho.

I suppose it was topical at the time. It was, generally, an improvement over recent books. I wonder whether they sold anyway, as readers were loyal? I find her quite inconsistent.

Judy wrote: "Although this book has a great atmosphere and interesting characters, I personally prefer crime novels where there is a secret motive to be discovered, rather than one of the characters being a ser..."

I agree that I rather have a motive than a psychotic, but in this case the serial killer was a given and the jewel names was almost a motive. Did anyone get that common thread when Alleyn asked Troy if she did? I didn't, but I don't know the French for pearl.

The jewel names were clever - I didn't get them, I must admit.

I quite like this one. An interesting group of characters. And I don’t think I guessed whodunnit the first time I read it. But on the whole I am not keen on nutty serial killers, I prefer a murder with a motive.

Agreed, I prefer a motive, also - and I didn’t get the jewel names, either.

I liked this book much better than the last, and I'm not sure whether it was the last that made me think 4 stars for this one, or whether it really rates that. But that's what I've given this book.

I enjoyed the setting on board ship, the characters, the story and unravelling of the mystery.

Given I have a 67 year old walkie talkie doll sitting on her chair in my bedroom, I was rather interested in the inclusion of her type in the story too, although I had always thought of them being more of an English/Australia/NZ doll. So that made me consult professor Google to see what I could find out about Las Palmas and walkie talkie dolls and was surprised at what I found amongst the many references. This from a book on Googlebooks titled "Through It All: The Divine Hand of God a biography by Helen A. M. Dobbin. isbn 1503573761.
"The first port of call was Las Palmas; it was very tropical with lots of shopping for the tourist and plenty of tourist spots to visit! We bought Caroline a large "Walkie Talkie Doll" which stood taller than she did! We all had enjoyment playing with the doll when we were back on the ship and on our way to Australia, most people who seen the doll had their share of walking it and making it cry as it walked."
This particular part is an excerpt from her journey to Australia sailing on the Fairstar ship in April 1968.
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=a...

So similar to Marsh's book, even to the name of the ship, you'd be forgiven for thinking that she had second sight!

Judy wrote: "I've just come across a Radio 4 programme, A Good Read, with a discussion of Singing in the Shrouds - I would suggest only listening to this after finishing the book, since I think it does have one..."

Thanks Judy. This was so interesting. I listened to the whole broadcast!
The reference by Flanders to gays being considered almost as freaks in that era compared to today reminded me of something Marsh once said. I'm not sure now whether it was in a piece of writing or an interview she gave, but many, many years ago when she said because of her deeper voice she was often looked at and treated as though she was something different, a bit of a freak.
It has always been a debated, but unanswered, question as to whether she was gay.

Lesley wrote: "Given I have a 67 year old walkie talkie doll sitting on her chair in my bedroom, I was rather interested in the inclusion of her type in the story too, although I had always thought of them being more of an English/Australia/NZ doll. So that made me consult professor Google to see what I could find out about Las Palmas...."

Many thanks for this, Lesley, very interesting - I also consulted Professor Google about this same question the other day, but didn't get anywhere though I did find a lot of brief references to walkie talkie dolls from Las Palmas!

I do remember having a talking doll in the mid 60s which said "Mama" and several other brief phrases if you pulled out a cord, but I am not sure if it walked, and it didn't come from Las Palmas.

Judy wrote: "Lesley wrote: "Given I have a 67 year old walkie talkie doll sitting on her chair in my bedroom, I was rather interested in the inclusion of her type in the story too, although I had always thought..."

I got mine in 1951. You walk her as you do a toddler when they are trying to walk, and as she walks her head moves from side to side. She mamas when you lay her on her back or front. She fits 3 month baby clothes. and she became my best (only) friend when I was in isolation recovering from polio.

I did think the google books book was such a coincidence with the name of the ship being so close to that of the one in Marsh's book but 10 years later.

Your doll sounds wonderful, Lesley, and she must have been a real help while you were in isolation as a child, which must have been traumatic to go through. Do you have a photo of the doll to share?

Reading your description of walking her, I vaguely remember either having a doll which walked like this, or playing with one which belonged to a friend/my sister.

I also recall a similar doll, whose head turned and who said 'mama', but mine must have been from the Sixties, as I wasn't born until then. I loved my Pippa dolls too - anyone remember those?!

I really enjoyed the majority of this book, the setting and small circle of characters was really engaging. The conclusion, much less so. I suspect at the time of writing, a killer having 10 day petit mal episodes, was a reasonable explanation for murder. Reading today, it is out of touch, quite lazy and offensive. It is certainly one area where golden age books don't age well to me. It's a real shame, as I was well on the way to giving this 5 stars.

I found myself comparing this to Christie's The ABC Murders, as they both involve serial killers with no discernible motives. There is definitely an added air of suspense and fear when the selection of victims is somewhat random (although logical in the mind of the killer). I think its more the invention of novelists and script writers to create killers with specific time periods for their killing sprees, but Marsh certainly isn't the only one to use that trope.

Louise, I'm reposting your post with spoiler tags just to be on the safe side, as it mentioned a plot twist in The ABC Murders.

Louise wrote:

Tara wrote: "I found myself comparing this to Christie's The ABC Murders, as they both involve serial killers with no discernible motives. There is definitely an added air of suspense and fear when the selectio..."

(view spoiler)[The murderer inABC Murders is not a real serial killer though, it’s just a cover. (hide spoiler)]

Judy wrote: "Louise, I'm reposting your post with spoiler tags just to be on the safe side, as it mentioned a plot twist in The ABC Murders.

Louise wrote:

Tara wrote: "I found myself comparing this to Christ..."

In terms of The ABC Murders: (view spoiler)[Technically a serial killer is someone who murders multiple people across distinct events (as opposed to a spree killer that does it all at once). So even thought The ABC murderer is not a "psychotic" killer, he is a serial one. It also doesn't quite matter his motive in that he still killed innocent people that fit the pattern he was trying to create, and it would be just as terrifying to the public at large. (hide spoiler)]