Literary Horror discussion

Please join Marie-Therese and I for our August 2019 Buddy Read, Brian Evenson's Song for the Unraveling of the World! Let's start around this weekend.

Literary Horror has already read "The Second Door", as part of the anthology Looming Low:Volume I. It's on the 2018 Shirley Jackson shortlist for short story.

A 2-page taste from the collection:
http://www.peopleholding.com/article/...

A recent interview:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I just finished reading this over the weekend and I'm supposed to write a review in the next week or so. Okay if I jump in and discuss the stories with you guys as you move along?

I may also join in, since I also read this recently.

would be great to hear from both of you, of course!

More than one goodreads review has observed that this collection covers well-trodden ground for Evenson. (Hi S̶e̶a̶n̶.) But it's a sticky, messy, well-trodden swamp that I'm happy to slosh around in.

"No Matter Which Way We Turned": 2 pages. I don't remember such short pieces from Evenson since the Altman's Tongue days. This is very different from Altman's Tongue (also 2 pages), a light entertaining piece that riffs off of the opening wordplay.

I love the demented psychiatrist/patient dialogs in "Born Stillborn". I've seen Evenson do this, but it's always a pleasure to watch the vaguely uncomfortable dream sequences transition into outright dementia and conflict. (I thought a lot of this was very funny, but that's me.) The switch in character and roles at the end is nicely done, and reminds me a little of the switch at the end of Seaside Town.

"Leaking Out" is probably one of Evenson's more conventional horror stories. But he is so dry and precise, and careful to rework and distort well-worn tropes. Even though he's used the (view spoiler)[skin garment trope before, say in Grottor (hide spoiler)], I was quite creeped out by how it's handled here.

The title story is an entertaining treatment of familiar Evenson themes. I was hoping (view spoiler)[the "Song" would play a more central role in the story, but it didn't. (hide spoiler)]

"Second Door" is Evenson-ian post-apocalyptic science fiction (see also Immobility or The Warren), with all his paranoia and ambiguity. Marie-Therese, Randolph and I all loved it last year:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Did anyone else think "Sisters" was hilarious? The caricatures of the family, the dialog that's not quite right, and the little incomplete bits of information that hint obliquely at the real picture. And that last sentence, ha.

Hey y'all, just picked up a copy. Hopefully I can find a minute to catch up and then I'll jump in.

Hi, all. As I mentioned earlier, I finished this about a week ago, so my thoughts aren't exactly fresh. And even though I've read ahead, I'll try to stick with the general pace of the group.

For the sake of transparency I should note that this is the 15th Brian Evenson book I've read, and the sixth collection. It's entirely possible that I'm just fatigued at this point. I didn't like this collection as much as Contagion, Fugue State, or Windeye. Yet Evenson remains one of my very favorite writers and a huge source of inspiration, so I consider even a mediocre story of his to be leagues better than most others.

On that note, the second story, "Born Stillborn," is exactly the kind of creepy, singular story that makes reading Evenson so rewarding. The strange, ambiguously foreign names, the undisclosed location, the shifting states of mental deterioration and paranoia--it all just works so well. The thing about the differences and similarities between apples and bananas also really stuck with me.

I wasn't as crazy about "Leaking Out" and "Sisters," both of which felt a little uninspired. But, as Bill notes, the writing is so tight and the humor--when it is present--so on point that they were still very entertaining.

"The Second Door" reminded me a bit of the movie 10 Cloverfield Lane, though it's more sophisticated and ultimately more unsettling. Has anyone else seen that?

My take might be a bit of a counter point to David's, as this is the first Evenson collection that I have ever read (which I guess is sort of like admitting to having just listened to 'Abbey Road' for the first time...).

Read up to 'Born Stillborn' last night. What struck first was the clarity of Evenson's prose. For a world that is so vague and hallucinatory, everything is laid out so clearly. This is a feat, AFAI'mC.

Too, the decision to include the dialogue where the day therapist talks about his twin, only to have him deny that text a few pages later, seems audacious, and is pulled off perfectly.

Of course, as a reader, we can flip back and see that the text is right there, the day therapist does in fact state that he is a twin, et c. But then when he denies it, not only does Haupt question his memory, his experience and reality, we do as well. I for a moment was tempted to turn back and check whether I had really read that passage, but didn't, out of fear that it might have disappeared.

The ending seemed a little too clean cut, frankly. Of course the piece had to end somehow, but the 'Haupt as murderer' ending just came off as too mundane. I was hoping that the strangeness would sort of ring out at the end, grow and leave the reader with some ambiguity. Having Haupt murder the therapist brought it all back to earth, pulled everything together and dissipated the strangeness, unfortunately.

'Born Stillborn' stuck with me all evening, and left me with that sort of giddy elated feeling at what fiction is capable of.

The apple/banana theme is striking as well, possibly the central part of the story in so far as it is provided as the reason for Haupt's murder of the day therapist.

The question ('How is a banana like and apple?') is an inverted koan, an unanswerable question whose purpose is not to enlighten or illuminate but to wrap the mind tighter around itself, to set into motion a closing up of the mind.

Sam wrote: "The question ('How is a banana like an apple?') is an inverted koan, an unanswerable question whose purpose is not to enlighten or illuminate but to wrap the mind tighter around itself, to set into motion a closing of the mind."

This is great, Sam--gets to the kind of point I would struggle to put into words. Love it.

I'm also a comparative newcomer to Evenson. I've read a half dozen stories from anthologies (loved all of them), and intend to eventually achieve David levels of completeness. I can see the possible fatigue; getting used to a weird writer's style brings familiarity, and familiarity is death for weirdness. It's one of the reasons I spaced out my readings of Aickman and Ligotti collections.

Are we okay for spoilers early in the collection? Because spoilers follow for the first 6 stories.

So far, I am loving the collection. "No Matter" was a perfect opening story, immediately confronting the reader with the kind of inexplicable weirdness to follow, as well as showing people's impotence in the face (pun kind of intended) of it; i.e locking the girl in the building and walking away.

Agree with people about the quality of Stillborn. And I can see how the cannibalism struck some an a little mundane, but telegraphing it with the narrator no longer being able to distinguish the apple from the banana based on edibility of skin was a nice, creepy way to lead into it.

The narrator of "Song" was a near pitch-perfect voice of someone with severe mental disease (schizophrenia?) combined with the serial abuser's believe that they are the real victims. I thought it subtly raised the question of whether the two can be inextricably linked.

I like the comparison of "Second Door" to 10 Cloverfield Lane, with the constant question of whether one is being gaslit as to the dangers outside (with added Evensonian weirdness). I thought the biggest weakness of 10 Cloverfield Lane was it's ending, (view spoiler)[ revealing that the house was in the world of Cloverfield - a function of shoehorning an unrelated script into the Cloverfield universe. Evenson wisely (and typically) dodged an actual reveal. (hide spoiler)]

Onward!

David wrote: "I should note that this is the 15th Brian Evenson book I've read, and the sixth collection."
Good to compare notes with another Evenson obsessive, David!

I've enjoyed most of Evenson's collections, including Fugue State and Windeye. I was less excited about "Collapse of Horses"; I remember a fair number of his acid western pieces which didn't work so well for me. The stories (so far) here work with different settings.

Sam wrote: "The ending seemed a little too clean cut, frankly. Of course the piece had to end somehow, but the 'Haupt as murderer' ending just came off as too mundane."
I agree, even though the apple/banana thing seemed to be pushing in that direction. But there are more ambiguous, Evenson-ian endings.

Whitney wrote: "I thought the biggest weakness of 10 Cloverfield Lane was it's ending..."
Hmm, I might have to check out Cloverfield Lane. I have to say I didn't like the very conventional trailer, which implies dependence on jump scares (one of my pet peeves with horror movies). I'm more a fan of the abstract slow-burn (Resolution, The Invitation, Berberian Sound Studio etc). You think I'll like Cloverfield Lane?

Oh, man, I loved Berberian Sound Studio. 10 Cloverfield Lane is a commercial movie, but it's definitely above average. I remember thinking it was good, much better than the actual Cloverfield movie. John Goodman always has a great screen presence and it does a lot within a small space. I'd recommend it if you're ever in the mood for a "bottle movie."

Bill wrote: "Whitney wrote: "I thought the biggest weakness of 10 Cloverfield Lane was it's ending..."
Hmm, I might have to check out Cloverfield Lane. I have to say I didn't like the very conventional trailer,..."

Check it out. Not heavy on the jump scares at all. I'm not a fan either, it's a cheap way to get a reaction 99% of the time. Excellent psychological thriller, and John Goodman is fantastic. I was not impressed by the first Cloverfield movie, and didn't bother with the third.

Also, I loved The Invitation and Resolution (though I preferred The Endless by a titch). I have never heard of Berberian Sound Studio, but it's going to the top of the TBW. What did you think of The Blackcoat's Daughter?

Whitney wrote: "Also, I loved The Invitation and Resolution (though I preferred The Endless by a titch)."
I loved The Endless too; good to see another Benson/Moorhead fan here.

I haven't seen Blackcoat's Daughter. I love how restrained the trailer is; will definitely get to it (and 10 Cloverfield Lane) soon.

Berberian Sound Studio is excellent. So is Strickland's next film, Duke of Burgundy, very dark and tense, but in a very different setting. His recent In Fabric is more problematic.

Anyone here on letterboxd, for more horror movie conversations?

And this is a good lead-in back to "Room Tone" in Evenson's collection. I guess this is the start of the pieces involving filmmaking, mentioned in S̶e̶a̶n̶'s review. Entertaining enough, but a light piece. I've dabbled a bit in editing, and watched experts do their thing; interesting how ambient recordings can make a difference. Fortunately none of the experts I've met were as obsessive as the one in the story.

I agree with others about the strength of 'Born Stillborn'. I think this is one of the better stories in the collection. As Bill notes, Evenson treads this therapist/patient territory elsewhere and it's one of my favorites among his various plot devices. I like how Haupt puzzles over words and phrases, while at the same time trying to outwit the therapist. I think Evenson is at his most unique when he creates these characters who seem almost alien in their conceptions of the world around them, like they are just struggling to grasp the most basic essentials of human existence, interaction, and communication.

Like Bill, I also found 'Sisters' to be amusing. The story is a good example of Evenson's offbeat humor. I kept thinking of a darker version of The Addams Family, though still on the lighthearted end of the Evenson spectrum.

The next two stories, 'Room Tone' and 'Shirts and Skins', were two of my other favorites from the collection. 'Room Tone' has such good atmosphere and I enjoyed watching as Filip's singular obsession grows. It was pretty clear where the story was heading, but the getting there was what mattered. Perhaps not coincidentally given the theme, I kept picturing this one on the screen. Also I like how the Realtor doesn't have a name. It's one of those subtle details that Evenson so excels at.

'Shirts and Skins' is just so weird. I found Gregory's extreme world-weary passivity to be really funny in this story. This one is a good example of Evenson taking a fairly banal domestic tale and wrangling it into his own twisted framework.

I enjoyed "Shirts and Skins" as well. I really hate being trapped in unpleasant social situations, and Evenson evokes that well here (and elsewhere).

"The Tower" starts in a proto-science fiction setting, but slips effortlessly into something else. I found this image really disturbing:

Indeed, the interior of the hole was immaculately clean and a little slick, as if it had been licked over and over.

And I love the resolutely inconclusive ending.

I was pretty entertained by "The Hole" as well (different "hole" from the one in "The Tower", haha), from the opening interrogation, with the odd switches between "we" and "I", to the final oblique resolution.

"Room Tone" was definitely another highlight for me. I love horror stories about obsessions and compulsions, probably because I find them scarily relatable.

I also think that horror and sound recording aren't explored nearly enough, and I have a soft spot for movies like The Conversation and Blow Out.

One thing that might be worth discussing: I was slightly disappointed when another, similar story about film making and obsession appears later in the collection ("Line of Sight"). Stories that cover such similar territory goes a long way toward making a collection feel like a bunch of stories thrown together, rather than something that is carefully curated and sequenced. I get that not all collections need to be "something more," but it still annoys me for some reason.

Bill wrote: "I found this image really disturbing:

Indeed, the interior of the hole was immaculately clean and a little slick, as if it had been licked over and over.."

Yes, that combined with the later reference to the room looking 'as if it had been licked clean' made me feel slightly ill.

David wrote: "Stories that cover such similar territory goes a long way toward making a collection feel like a bunch of stories thrown together, rather than something that is carefully curated and sequenced. I get that not all collections need to be "something more," but it still annoys me for some reason."

I agree, David, and for me that lack of care in curation and sequencing felt more glaring in this collection because of how much better Evenson's collections typically fare in this regard. This is actually one of my main turn-offs in collections, and because it's one that I encounter much too frequently it's one reason why I still prefer reading novels (which I realize may amount to sacrilege in this particular forum!).

S̶e̶a̶n̶ wrote: "'Shirts and Skins' is just so weird. I found Gregory's extreme world-weary passivity to be really funny in this story. This one is a good example of Evenson taking a fairly banal domestic tale and wrangling it into his own twisted framework. "

I like your take on this story. One of the things that also struck me about it is how the weirdness is so dependent on the gendering of the characters. If the roles had been reversed, it wouldn't have risen much above the banality you mention, but would been a fairly transparent commentary, with a fairly obvious metaphor in the skins, about gender roles.

"The Hole" was reminiscent of Peter Watt's story "The Things" (which I highly recommend on the off chance any here hasn't read it), told from the point of view of The Thing in, wait for it, The Thing. That story is only more grounded by the reader's familiarity of the film and what's happening from the human perspective. Without that, the voice is just as alien as the narrator(s) of "The Hole."

"A Disappearance" was unusual in its conventionality. Maybe it was meant as a palate cleanser at the half-way point?

Whitney wrote: "One of the things that also struck me about it is how the weirdness is so dependent on the gendering of the characters. If the roles had been reversed, it wouldn't have risen much above the banality you mention, but would been a fairly transparent commentary, with a fairly obvious metaphor in the skins, about gender roles. "

I agree. And I also think this story is unusual in that respect for in my experience there is not often much of what could be read as overt symbolism in Evenson's work.

"A Disappearance" was unusual in its conventionality. Maybe it was meant as a palate cleanser at the half-way point?

Perhaps as much as a palate cleanser as Evenson would ever offer us, but you could be right. I found this story to be uninspired, especially for one that is kind of long by Evenson's standards. I don't mind his lesser stories when they are only 2-3 pages, but ones like this disturb the flow of a collection for me.

Whitney wrote: ""The Hole" was reminiscent of Peter Watt's story "The Things" ..., told from the point of view of The Thing in, wait for it, The Thing."
Obviously I can't resist slapping this on my to-read list. (The Thing has been an inspiration, and one of my all-time favorites.)

I totally agree with Whitney's comments on gender in "Shirts and Skins" as well.

"The Disappearance" was a severe disappointment. I seem to hit a little dip in the collection with that, "The Cardiacs", and "Smear". Not a fan of the ideas or execution.

I thought "The Glistening World" was much more interesting. I loved the ideas, especially the man in the suit. But I thought the sequence with (view spoiler)[Dawn trapped in the "bathroom" (hide spoiler)] could have been much tighter, and I thought (view spoiler)[the paragraphs with the "figures" (hide spoiler)]was uncharacteristically murky and longwinded.

S̶e̶a̶n̶ wrote: "...it's one reason why I still prefer reading novels (which I realize may amount to sacrilege in this particular forum!). "
"Sacrilege" and "horror" are often closely connected, right? :-)

I'm also finding the later stories a bit of a disappointment.

In "Smear", I actually did like the idea (or the situation), which was horrific. But the smear concept seemed a bit weak. I liked The Glistening World, and the turnaround of it being a 'positive' intervention. "Wanderlust" could have done so much more in a Primer mindfuck sort of way with the timelines of the narrator following himself (I may be verging on the 'criticizing the story because it's not what I wanted' problem).

The next two Lovecraftian ones fulfilled the requirements for the Lovecraft collections they were written for, but didn't seem particularly inspired beyond that. "Wrong train to a strange town" is one of my favorite tropes, but was a bit wasted in this one.

I liked Line of Sight, but it was really familiar - person trapped in other dimension can only get out by dragging someone else in. Anyone else know where this might have been used before? Maybe The Best Bizarro Fiction of the Decade, or a story by a different writer in Lost Films?

"Trigger Warnings" = big yawn. Read like an undergraduate piece with a tiresome 'hot take' on campus politics.

Whitney wrote: ""Wanderlust" could have done so much more in a Primer mindfuck sort of way..."
Primer is also one of my favorite movies. And no, "Wanderlust" didn't do much for me either.

Enjoyed Lather of Flies, one I'd read before in Lost Films. The whole "mysterious lost film that drives people insane" genre is another of my favorites. I recommend Lost Films for anyone else in this camp. On a barely related note, John Carpenter's "Cigarette Burns" is the best episode of the largely not great "Masters of Horror" series.

A Collapse of Horses was next on my Evenson reading list. Anyone recommend a different one? David, looks like you had a few others as your favorites?

The two Lovecraftian stories didn't do much for me either. When I read "Lord of the Vats", I kept thinking about "The Second Door", also in a science fiction setting. But "Door" was so lean and mean, while "Vats" was kind of flabby and relatively conventional.

Whitney wrote: "A Collapse of Horses was next on my Evenson reading list. Anyone recommend a different one?"

"Collapse" is not my favorite Evenson collection. I love Fugue State, Windeye, and Altman's Tongue, then probably Wavering Knife next.

I didn't care for 'Smear' either but it made me think of that movie Moon with Sam Rockwell, which I liked much more.

I haven't read Collapse but I concur with Bill's other opinions. Windeye was a particular standout for me.

Three votes for WIndeye. Okay that's my next Evenson. Thanks, hive mind.

'Vats' was the first Lovecraftian story in a sci-fi setting that I have come across. Amazing how a setting so different from the standard 20's Lovecraftian era works so successful, seems inevitable even.

While I agree with the other sentiments here that 'Vats' didn't totally land, I am interested in any Lovecraftian sci-fi y'all could recommend.

Sam wrote: "'While I agree with the other sentiments here that 'Vats' didn't totally land, I am interested in any Lovecraftian sci-fi y'all could recommend. ..."

I really enjoyed Elizabeth Bear and Sarah Monette's three stories set in a universe of living space ships called Boojums, and where the Lovecraftian mythos is real. My favorite is The Wreck of the Charles Dexter Ward , the other two are "Boojum" and "Mongoose".

Sam wrote: "While I agree with the other sentiments here that 'Vats' didn't totally land, I am interested in any Lovecraftian sci-fi y'all could recommend. "

Was "Vats" really that Lovecraft-ian? If (view spoiler)[we changed the Yog-sothoth reference to (say) Beelzebub, (hide spoiler)]I'm not sure I would associate it with Lovecraft so much.

Not sure if you're interested in comics, but I really enjoyed Grant Morrison's Nameless, very Lovecraftian in a sci-fi setting. Alan Moore's Providence Act 1 is also a very enjoyable take on Lovecraft, though the sci-fi elements don't appear till near the end of the mini-series.

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Bill wrote: "Was "Vats" really that Lovecraft-ian? If (view spoiler)I'm not sure I would associate it with Lovecraft so much ..."

True that. But it definitely qualified as cosmic horror, and there are plenty who consider "Lovecraftian" and "cosmic horror" to be nearly synonymous.

Whitney wrote: "Enjoyed Lather of Flies, one I'd read before in Lost Films. The whole "mysterious lost film that drives people insane" genre is another of my favorites."
Me too. And I also loved "Cigarette Burns".

Like S̶e̶a̶n̶, I'm enjoying Evenson's forays into filmmaking as a setting. The three pieces here are fun but rather light though. Lahr (in Lather of Flies) is hilariously menacing, but I keep expecting him to do a bit more.

I also loved Nicholas Rombes' The Absolution of Roberto Acestes Laing, another dark, obsessive novel about films. Recommended by Marie-Therese, who probably would have brought it up by now if she isn't otherwise occupied.

Finished the collection last night. Going to echo the general sentiment that 'Born Stillborn', 'Shirts and Skins' and 'Lather of Flies' are standouts. It feels like so many of the stories have promise, and solid set ups, but then sort of fizzle midway or at the end. Not that every story must have a rousing ending, but the ideas don't seem to be fully developed.

One thing that struck me is that, while the settings and particulars vary in most of the stories, the central conceits are often very similar: the principal character is unable to tell what is real, what is in their mind and what is supernatural. While this is almost always a part of supernatural horror and weird fiction, the stories in this collection too often do not extend past this tactic, which is disappointing. Arguments to the contrary are desired.

Perhaps if Evenson didn't have such status (to which the collection is inevitably compared) I would have felt different. I will say I am excited to read his other stuff, and after those glowing recommendations 'Windeye' will be on the list.

On a side note, I found the premise of 'Shirts and Skins' one that resonated with me, and a fear that lots of cis/het guys experience. I asked my [female] partner if she was aware of any analogous, irrational fears that women have W/R/T relationships [i.e. outside of the very real fears of violence, and one that would make a good horror story] and she couldn't come up with one. Curious if there are stories in this vein.

Thanks too Bill and Whitney for the lovecraftian sci-fi recommendations,

Sam, I think your observation about the central conceits is definitely a valid critique. Evenson uses it a lot, and it's particularly noticeable in this collection. Personally I've come to terms with it as one of his go-to set-ups and just appreciate the best examples of it. That being said his other collections showcase more of his diversity.

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