Support for Indie Authors discussion

Kind of a craft question here. In a 90k word novel how often should characters smile, or nod, or any other mannerism? At which point does it become repetitive?

Since I'm currently in the beta stage, what I think I can say is: when betas say it's far too repetitive, then it's a problem.

It's a tough choice. Repeating one word is a problem, sounding like thesaurus is a problem too.

Tomas wrote: "Since I'm currently in the beta stage, what I think I can say is: when betas say it's far too repetitive, then it's a problem.

It's a tough choice. Repeating one word is a problem, sounding like t..."

It is a delicate balance. Does anyone run statistical analysis on their manuscript? To determine how often a word is used per thousand?

How long is string?

I.e., it's impossible to give a quantitative answer to your question. Too much is too much. Until then it might not be enough.

The real answer, I suppose is, it's too much when the reader notices it.

BUT … you can avoid the whole issue by just cutting half or more of it. Go the "less is more" route.

And there are other ways to give or imply visual cues. I mean, instead of having writing …

"Don't tell me you actually bought into that whole story," Sarah said, rolling her eyes.

You could just drop the rolling eyes part and let the reader just go off the tone of the dialog. Or, if you really wanted to drive home the gesture, you could drop the rolling eyes part and have another character respond with …

"Of course not. And you don't have to roll your eyes at me, Sarah. I know as well as you do it was a load of fetid dingos' kidneys!"

It's difficult to give a concrete answer on this, as I don't know the characters, how often the ones in question appear in the story, etc.

As you read the book over in the proofreading / editing phases, if you feel they're smiling and nodding too much, then it's too much. When you think you've cut it down enough, cut it a little further.

A good beta reader will let you know if it becomes cumbersome to their reading.

Everyone has pretty much already said all that needs to be said. It's a "I'll know it when I see it" kind of thing. I just finished the first draft of my sequel and I already KNOW I used smiling too much, it's one of the things I made a note on to fix when I go back and edit.

Good advice all around :)

There is a word frequency tool here, SIA. I haven't used it and don't know if it's still usable. Maybe it has a way to program out certain words like 'said' since they would show up all the time.

It's under 'Author Resources.'

Don't forget, too, you can always use synonyms or phrases to indicate smiles, frowns, nods, etc. to cut down on some of the monotony.

The Emotional Thesaurus is a great resource to add variety to your character's responses and show their emotions.

I've been told that when a person smiles, grins or grimaces more than once every two pages, then you're over doing it. Find another way to describe what they are doing or leave the facial expressions off and just use the dialogue to give an idea of their expressions. the Emotional Thesaurus is a handy book to have. In editing, I'm editing most of it out, attempting to have nothing above the shoulders used (ie nods, smiles, gazes,, etc.) It's difficult, but then again, I'm discovering how to express those things in other ways. If a Beta says it too much, it probably is. Also watch for words like That, just, see, feel, think, know, and all derivatives of them. Another nasty thing is the word 'it' and 'there' since both are unspecific, The passive verbs and pronouns have also an issue in writing as both are easy traps to fall into.

I agree with the suggestions above, but I would add - read your manuscript out loud. You'll hear when it is too much.

All good suggestions, B.A. I second, or is it third, Emotional Thesaurus, and double your comments about filler words and the ambiguous "it" and "there."

I use Autocrit.

Find the locations where it is needed, not where it is wanted. It becomes instinctual as you keep going when and where you need things like that. read, read, and reread

Thanks for the suggestion of Autocrit Sara - will try it. Yes, repetitive words is a problem for first time writers like me...

Interesting dialogue here. I like to allow my readers some freedom of imagination when my characters interact. I'll put in a specific movement or facial reaction when it's truly important to what is happening (or foreshadowing something happening in the future). Then, I work with the the theory that they'll continue to do whatever that action is until I tell the reader that we're changing it.

If a character is happy and smiling on page 5 and we have 4 pages of dialogue, assume they're still smiling at the end unless something has happened to change that. I'm also a reader that skips over excessive descriptions. I don't want five pages describing the dress your character is wearing.

Anne wrote: "I'm also a reader that skips over excessive descriptions. I don't want five pages describing the dress your character is wearing."

So true. I hate this. To be fair, I started with screenplays before moving to novels. Doing something like you wrote above leads straight to the rejection pile (which, coincidentally, is where my stuff goes, anyway).

Anne wrote: "...assume they're still smiling at the end ..."

I'd also assume they're psychotic for smiling that long.

I have this issue too. My characters nod, shake, grin, shrug and so forth far too often. I introduced these actions to cut down on the amount of dialogue tags I was using. But now the actions have become as much a problem as the dialogue tags.

I avoid the eye-rolling and lip-biting because these are often over-used in fiction. I only use these if it's a specific quirk of a character and then I make it part of their personality, that they do it in certain situations.

I use the actions and dialogue tags in a first draft and don't count how often. In the second and subsequent drafts, I work on culling them or finding alternative ways of expressing them. In doing so, I'm learning better ways and also implementing these in my first drafts to cut down on the amount of revision needed.

I also pay attention to how dialogue tags and actions accompanying dialogue are used in books that I read for pleasure. If I find a trick I like, I incorporate it into my writing. I consider it's all part of the learning process, trying to find better ways of expressing myself as an author.

Dwayne wrote: "Anne wrote: "...assume they're still smiling at the end ..."

I'd also assume they're psychotic for smiling that long."

Unless they're petrified :P

Phillip wrote: "Anne wrote: "I'm also a reader that skips over excessive descriptions. I don't want five pages describing the dress your character is wearing."

So true. I hate this. To be fair, I started with screenplays before moving to novels. Doing something like you wrote above leads straight to the rejection pile (which, coincidentally, is where my stuff goes, anyway)."

I sometimes believe I am the only writer that laments the passing of descriptive writing. I am turned off by books that lack descriptions. I want to know what your settings look like. I want to know what your characters look like. I want to know what they're wearing. If a writer can't tell me any details about the story, I assume they aren't really invested in it and I can't be bothered to imagine what they can't describe.

I can see it for screenplays, but not novels. In the final version of a movie, we have the actors, we have the sets, we have the costumes, the blanks are filled in. In a novel? We don't have that. And if you can't tell me what things look like, I will assume your characters are stick figures talking away in a white room and I'll get bored of it.

Dwayne wrote: "Phillip wrote: "Anne wrote: "I'm also a reader that skips over excessive descriptions. I don't want five pages describing the dress your character is wearing."

So true. I hate this. To be fair, I ..."

Dwayne wrote: "Phillip wrote: "Anne wrote: "I'm also a reader that skips over excessive descriptions. I don't want five pages describing the dress your character is wearing."

So true. I hate this. To be fair, I ..."

You all have said what there needs to be said. I know that repetitive expressions are sticky issues to deal with and they have a boring effect that could affect one's storyline. I tend to go with Micah's suggestion about the 'rolling of the eyes part.' There's more creativity in implying a certain action in a response made by one of the characters engaged in a dialogue, than having to repeatedly add it after the response is made.

The trick is to put in enough description to give the reader a general overview of where they person is and they can fill in the details. You can tell me the woman was wearing a strapless floor-length gown of mauve flounces. That is all I need to visualize a gown. I don't need the way it hung, the cost, how well it fitted her figure (it's strapless so it must fit) Only give the unusual.

In a setting, follow the gaze around the room, giving the highlights such as the pale green walls were hung with paintings in museum frames. The furniture was Victorian in appearance covered in a gaudy brocade. The dark blue Persian rug on the floor clashed with the green of the furniture. The room smell of lemon wax and stale cigars.

It's enough to give you an idea of what the room looks like without going into six paragraphs of describing everything in the room. If it is very important, describe it in detail.

As to the actions or movements of the head and face...I get it. They are so easy to write and so BORING. I'm going back and attempting to get rid of the smiles, nods, sighs, gazes, looks, stares, frowns, eyes, etc...I knew we all do so much more but it's so difficult to write. Try to write one scenes without facial expressions, sight references, or one referral to a smile....go on. Try it....lol. Make sure the scene is at least 500 words.

In one of my recent books I used an emotional thesaurus to try to add in more variety of actions to show different emotions in my characters. It was useful, and I added in some ideas I'd taken from it, but interestingly when I read back through the draft I ended up taking some of the more unusual actions out, as they ended up drawing too much attention and interrupted the flow of the story. In fact, I sometimes put the more "boring" actions back in as they didn't distract from the story and it flowed better. It's definitely a difficult balancing act. I think an emotion thesaurus is a good way of getting some fresh ideas, especially as I had a character who was in a state of almost constant fear for chapter after chapter - at times able to express it and at other times having to try to hide it, and I had to be careful how I showed that without being repetitive. It took a lot of work, going over and over those chapters.

You can only really tell what works by just going back and reading what you've written and keep refining it and improving it. You'll probably get a sense for when actions are becoming repetitive. I think the more unusual an action is, probably the sooner it will become repetitive, while more everyday actions like smiling can be included more frequently.

Eliza wrote: "I am making a good salary from home $1200-$2500/week..."

Good for you. It's off topic, though.

I think "how much" depends on the writer. Sm can slip in a lot of stuff that adds colour without holding up the action, but those writers also usually (in my opinion) have reasonably slow action. The more rapid you want the action in the scene to go, I think the less description should go into it. I also think it depends on the genre. Thus a murder mystery should have plenty of description because if it is well thought out you want to be able to slip in clues and red herrings without being obvious. In fast-moving action story, description should be restricted to what is necessary to support the action, at least in the more active scenes. It is also desirable to come off a high tension scene, so some description relevant for what follows fills this role. My opinions, anyway.

Don't know about smiling too much, but when my first two trilogy books came out printed in late 90s some readers complained my characters cussed too much (so the re-dos for the ebook that just came out are "cleaner" if you know what I mean...) But my characters are my characters....