SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Here's the buddy read thread for A Little Hatred, Joe Abercrombie's newest book set in the World of the First Law.

It releases Sep 17 in the U.S., Sep 19 in the U.K. The buddy read "officially" starts Oct 22, but feel free to post any time.

Please mark anything beyond basic "look and feel" impressions from the early portions of the book with spoilers.

From initial reviews, it looks like it refers to events from the other books set in this world and it helps to have read them, but hopefully there are enough context clues to make it inessential. I'll find out soon enough, because this'll be my first one! :)

Promotional activities have started for this book! Here are a couple of links. I will add more to this post as I come across them.

Blog post by author Joe Abercrombie: https://joeabercrombie.com/progress-r...

Joe Abercrombie shares his editing process: https://www.tor.com/2019/09/09/joe-ab...
(This page also includes links to several excerpts from A Little Hatred.)

Thanks Beth! Is anyone else planning on reading The Blade itself and the others?

There's a SFFBC reread of The Blade Itself in mid-November. Maybe people will be fired up to read the rest of them after that!

I just finished this and am completely enthralled. Oh you all are going to have such a blast!

Though I have to advise you all to read the previous books first, at least the first trilogy. Makes it more satisfying.

Silvana wrote: "I just finished this and am completely enthralled. Oh you all are going to have such a blast!

Though I have to advise you all to read the previous books first, at least the first trilogy. Makes it..."

This is what I was afraid of...

Yeah....actually after some more thinking, it's up until The Heroes, which is book 5....There were lots of returning characters.

Anyway, I think it would still be a good read, as long as you consider to reread it, after finishing the others. I am curious to know how the new readers would react to this as well :)

Silvana wrote: "Yeah....actually after some more thinking, it's up until The Heroes, which is book 5....There were lots of returning characters.

Anyway, I think it would still be a good read, as long as you consi..."

I've seen one review from some of my blogging friends that said this was their first foray into Abercrombie and they loved this book too. So I'm not concerned I won't like it or understand it, but like you said, I'm worried I'd get more satisfaction if I read these first.

I'm not too worried, since I will now consider the rest of the books as prequels to this one. ;) I've read the first three preview chapters and Abercrombie's done a good job getting us acquainted with the various points of view, even while I have no idea which, if any, are recurring characters.

Double post for first impressions of the book!

- The geography hasn't been clear just from reading the book. Hard to say if this is a side effect of this being my first Abercrombie or not. Either way, here is a map that I found online, that Abercrombie posted on his twitter. It helped!:



Abercrombie's tweet is here if you want a better view of the image.

- Tech level = ? Battles seem to be played out on a medieval level, and there's growing industrialization in Edea, but there's been no guns. I get a (view spoiler)[late 18th century France/Versailles (hide spoiler)] impression of Adua from Orso's (first?) chapter.

- There's plenty of crude, violent stuff going on, but the tone of the narration makes it hard to take very seriously.

- As I recall, Abercrombie worked in TV before becoming a novelist, and it shows in brisk and cinematic pacing. I like the depiction of the characters--although he doesn't describe people with a great amount of detail, I have my own picture of what the main players look like and also have a mental sketch of their personalities.

Beth, re: tech.

I don't really consider this a spoiler for earlier books, but I'll tag it just in case: Previous books (view spoiler)[have been very much in the medieval level, though with intimations that magic is losing potency and technology is ascendant. I think it's in The Heroes, but could be wrong, we see late in the book some first testing of a cannon, and that's basically when the older characters in A Little Hatred are young. So it does seem like a lot of the culture is more 18th-century-ish with the industrial revolution and the general feel, but the gunpowder techs are not as far along. (hide spoiler)]

Thanks for the insights, John. Not long after I posted the tech pondering above, there was a chapter ("The Breakers") where (view spoiler)[a revolutionary/terrorist group is planning to destroy a factory with blasting powder. They mention that it is used in mining. So it's possible--especially if cannon also exist--that firearms will follow eventually (hide spoiler)].

I just wanted to drop by and say I don’t have very much to contribute yet because I’m not very far in (page 12?!) but I did start on Sunday and I am reading along.

I don’t know which chapters, but i think I’m up to page 28.

(view spoiler)[I’m suffering serious aversion for Savine and I’m not sure why?

I’m also not a fan of the industrial thing. I realize this is fantasy, but guns were around a long time before “industry”. The combination of swords and industry feels like oil and vinegar. (hide spoiler)]

I'm not as uncomfortable with Abercrombie's depiction of women so far (in 50 pages) as I was with Erikson's (over the course of a couple of novels), so that's something.

Beth wrote: "I'm not as uncomfortable with Abercrombie's depiction of women so far (in 50 pages) as I was with Erikson's (over the course of a couple of novels), so that's something."

I haven’t read Erikson. I’m not objecting to her character, I just find myself strongly, strongly disliking her.

Beth: Not to draw the discussion off-topic, but could you elaborate on your discomfort with Erikson's depiction of women?

Sarah: I suspect we're not supposed to like Savine, especially at this early point in the novel, or if we do we should feel a little uncomfortable with that feeling. If she was someone we met in real life, we would almost certainly hate her. To the extent that we do like her, I think it's because of the narrative voice with her POV--rather witty, somewhat self-aware of her own awfulness...

Beth: Not to draw the discussion off-topic, but could you elaborate on your discomfort with Erikson's depiction of women?

Sarah: I suspect we're not supposed to like Savine, especially at this early point in the novel, or if we do we should feel a little uncomfortable with that feeling. If she was someone we met in real life, we would almost certainly hate her. To the extent that we do like her, I think it's because of the narrative voice with her POV--rather witty, somewhat self-aware of her own awfulness...

John wrote: "Beth: Not to draw the discussion off-topic, but could you elaborate on your discomfort with Erikson's depiction of women?

Sarah: I suspect we're not supposed to like Savine, especially at this ea..."

I don’t like any of the characters so far (view spoiler)[except for maybe Rikke and Isern. If this is how the whole book is going to be it does not bode well for me. I am absolutely not reading a book full of “too cool for school” women and whiny men. I appreciate what he’s trying to do for women here, but it’s almost like I’m too aware of it?

It is also totally the opposite of what I was expecting.

And typically it’s the unlikeable characters that turn out to be my favorites. So her being unlikeable I’m not sure is the problem (most of my favorite characters are unlikeable). I think it’s the way she’s being presented. (hide spoiler)]

Sarah wrote: "I don’t like any of the characters so far [except for maybe Rikke and Isern. If this is how the whole book is going to be it does not bode well for me. I am absolutely not reading a book full of “too cool for school” women and whiny men. I appreciate what he’s trying to do for women here, but it’s almost like I’m too aware of it?"

I'm on p. 232 (seriously didn't think I was that far...), and while Savine hasn't changed appreciably, (view spoiler)[it seems at least possible that she will, given the hint we saw in the factory before the revolution got going (her discomfort with the conditions for the children) and the narrow escape she's made to this point).

Then again, Abercrombie seems fairly stubborn in his propensity for showing a parade of characters who don't change, even when they have the best of intentions to do so. (hide spoiler)]

How far along are you, Sarah?

Abercrombie is (usually) great with characters, making them develop and memorable. I remember when I first read The Blade Itself and fewer than half of the POV characters there were remotely likable. Somehow I kept on reading and voila, finished with the third book.

Interesting, I didn't consider "likeability" coming into this one, I was more hoping that I'll come to understand them, what makes them tick, why they do what they do. Silvana's post is a good sign!

John, to get super basic the differences relate to my perception of the women's agency, to what extent they are able to make their own decisions. Erikson's characters often come across as pawns (all of them), perhaps because their origin was in a D&D game. There's more to it than that, but I don't want to clog up this thread with non-ALH discussion.

And there's also something about character's likability that refers to whether you like/was entertained when reading about them. Now, from those characters I disliked, I still enjoyed being inside their heads. Although there is another one that took me a reread to appreciate their character.

Maybe a good example so I am not spoiling anything from the series is Cersei Lannister from ASOIAF. A truly despicable character but sooo good to read about. So maybe the question is whether you enjoy reading about a character, rather than whether you like the character or not?

In this book (and the other FL novels) I enjoyed reading how shallow, arrogant, vain, lazy, angry, nihilistic, incompetent, some the characters were. They're so entertaining, excruciatingly human, and I couldn't wait to know what they would experience, react, and how they're going to end up. Does that make sense? ;p

Ah, the nice warm feeling one gets from a trash fire.

Silvana wrote: "And there's also something about character's likability that refers to whether you like/was entertained when reading about them. Now, from those characters I disliked, I still enjoyed being inside ..."

Cersei is exactly what I mean- she’s probably one of the least likeable characters out there, but I still enjoyed reading/watching her.

Where as Savine I just feel like I’m supposed to believe she’s clever and manipulative rather than actually seeing it play out? I don’t know, hard to judge on just the one chapter I’ve spent with her so far.

I guess I was just hoping for something else than what I’ve seen so far. I should have done better research.

Sorry to hear it isn't working out for you (so far?), Sarah. I'll be interested to know what you think of it if you decide to press on, and if not, no worries. :)

Beth wrote: "Sorry to hear it isn't working out for you (so far?), Sarah. I'll be interested to know what you think of it if you decide to press on, and if not, no worries. :)"

I’m definitely going to press on! I took a break for a day because I needed to reset my expectations. But I am confident I can grow to like it.

I’m still not very far... page 83 I think:

How many characters are we introduced to in this book exactly? Are some of these from the First Law trilogy? I feel like I don’t understand the context and I can’t keel track of this many characters.

Do you mean POV characters? I think there are (view spoiler)[seven (hide spoiler)] in total. They are all new characters.

There are at least twelve FL trilogy characters popping up in this book (might be more) and maybe additional four from the other books especially The Heroes.

FYI there is a list of characters at the end of the book.

Silvana wrote: "Do you mean POV characters? I think there are [spoilers removed] in total. They are all new characters.

There are at least ten FL trilogy characters popping up in this book (might be more) and may..."

Yes that's what I meant. I need a notebook. lol

Sarah wrote: "Silvana wrote: "Do you mean POV characters? I think there are [spoilers removed] in total. They are all new characters.

There are at least ten FL trilogy characters popping up in this book (might ..."

I edited my post up there but just want to make sure that you know there is a list of characters at the end of the book. It's titled The Big People.

Thanks Silvana! I’m getting the hang of it now.

Page 204:
(view spoiler)[it’s beginning to feel like this Savine/Vick segment is never going to end. I was finally starting to enjoy Rikke/Leo, and somewhat Orso, now I’m stuck in super long chapters with Savine and Vick, which seem to have the most relevant story lines (at least in terms of plot), and also the one I’m least interested in.

I know I sound like I’m complaining a lot, and this isn’t as bad as I’m making it out to be, I’m enjoying it more than not, I guess I just didn’t expect to disagree with this that much. (hide spoiler)]

Page 222:

Just finished the chapter: The Little People. (view spoiler)[This was an interesting chapter. I liked how the POV shifted from person to person, starting with one and ending with the last person they see.

I do have to wonder what the point of it was- since it wasn’t really advancing the plot so much as adding to the dark tone.

Any ideas on that one? (hide spoiler)]

Pg 255-261: All Equal

(view spoiler)[ohh I loved this chapter!! Dark but humorous.

“Judge sat up high in the judge’s box, the lunatic ringleader of this carnival of fools...”

Also- the Judge is what I mean when I say I like unlikeable characters. I could read a whole book set from her POV alone. She’s despicable, but entertaining.

The whole scene reminded me a little of Joker from Batman for some reason, or like The Mad Hatter... (hide spoiler)]

Sarah wrote: "Page 222:

Just finished the chapter: The Little People. "

No point at all, just for fun :)

He did that jumpy POV style before in a short story Tough Times All Over: http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/aberc...

Sarah wrote: "Pg 255-261: All Equal

."

It's one hell of a chapter, innit? Glad you liked it.

Silvana wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Pg 255-261: All Equal

."

It's one hell of a chapter, innit? Glad you liked it."

It was brilliant. Really just perfect in every way for me.

Sarah wrote: "Page 222:

Just finished the chapter: The Little People. "

I think the point is just to show us the variety of people who are swept up in this event and their relationship to it, to deepen our understanding of the world a bit. Plus it was just a fun, cinematic way to move us through it.

John wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Page 222:

Just finished the chapter: The Little People. "

I think the point is just to show us the variety of people who are swept up in this event and their relationship to it, to ..."

I liked what he did with it- the way it was structured and everything, the POV moving from person to person, as you said it was very cinematic. But to be honest I think it’s been one of my least favorite chapters so far. I kept flipping to the end going are we done with this yet- can we move on now?

I’m enjoying it more now that we’re getting to some of the battle scenes and such. Feel like I have a good grasp on the major characters. I am thinking this book was probably just not the best place to start with Abercrombie.

Just checking in to say it's been a tough week, but I'm still here for the BR and hope to make better progress in the next couple of days. Recent posts have intrigued me, especially all those tempting spoiler tags from Sarah!

Haha- no worries Beth take your time.

Page 293:

(view spoiler)[bwahahaha!! I love Clover!! That scene is perfection too! (hide spoiler)]

p. 319 (and the rest of the chapter), "Hopes and Hatreds"

(view spoiler)[Sarah, like you, I'm loving Clover, and appreciated his interaction with Shivers here (maybe moreso because I know Shivers from some earlier books, and was always pulling for him). But anyway, I think it's great the way Abercombie both heightens the tension as he draws this whole fight out and gives us these other perspectives.

I also loved Isern's introduction of the fight.

As much as this fight's being built up, considering that we also have Rikke's "long eye" assurance that Leo will win, I've started to wonder uneasily if maybe he WON'T win. It seems pretty straightforward, but what if there's another interpretation? Or what if she's affected the future by telling Leo that he's going to win? As much as I want the wolf to lose, it feels like it would be a more interesting story in a number of ways if Leo loses, both for Rikke's character as she has to question her relationship to the long eye and for most of the characters I like, as the loss complicates their lives. (hide spoiler)]

John wrote: "p. 319 (and the rest of the chapter), "Hopes and Hatreds""

We must be neck and neck! I was reading this chapter at work:

(view spoiler)[ I also feel like there is a switcheroo coming. Like maybe Rikke saw the distant future and she’s pregnant with Leo’s son and that lion will fight Stour later and win.

And the multiple perspectives thing is working much better for me in this chapter because I feel like it’s relevant this time around? We needed to witness the fight for plot progression reasons where as in the other chapter, you get the sense that the city is chaotic long before that very long chapter with all the POVs. I’m reading the fight eagerly and enjoying all the different POVs while also feeling suspenseful about what is going to happen.

Where as in the other chapter I was really hoping the contrasting view points were there to show something else (how the wealthy think they are doing everyone a favor while the poor are maybe puttting blame on the wrong people or something). There wasn’t much suspense because there wasn’t a single thing I was hoping to learn from that chapter other than to move past it. That’s just me though, I’m a harsh critic.

And finally: I also enjoyed Clovers interaction with Shivers, and I’m excited he’s in a past book because I like Shivers as a character too even though we’ve only seen a little of him. (hide spoiler)]

One other theory before I see what happens:
(view spoiler)[could she also have been seeing the past? I haven’t read the other books so I wasn’t sure. (hide spoiler)]

Page 341:

(view spoiler)[While I’m glad Leo won, I’m also weirdly a little disappointed. I seriously thought he was going down.

I mean, I didn’t want him to die, I just think killing him might have been the more interesting choice? If that makes sense. (hide spoiler)]

Sarah wrote: "Page 341:



That's exactly what I was thinking--the more interesting choice. Oh well.

Page 362:

(view spoiler)[It shouldn’t have, but the hanging of 200 breakers caught me off guard and is seriously depressing. (hide spoiler)]

I'm back! I'll give this more decent attention over the weekend, but for now:

- I'm enjoying the dialogue. Lots of chuckle-worthy lines that I end up reading out loud to my partner.

- The points of view are piling up pretty high. Everybody's so sourly witty I hope I won't have trouble telling who's who.

- Broad's point of view ("It Was Bad," p. 68) was poignant. It's good to see a warrior who doesn't develop a psycopathic-ish thirst for killing like Leo or Stour Nightfall did (ETA although "berserker frenzy" isn't exactly a great mental state, either). I wonder what his role in the story will be.

Page 444:
(view spoiler)[The ending of this book is dragging on way too long. I think Abercrombie is a great writer, but it feels like he struggles a lot with pacing and structure. (hide spoiler)]