Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

i think it's possible never to go back home again. i haven't been back to italy in 7 years and my desire to go there has dwindled, not increased.

Also, Miri had kind of an ambivalent relationship with Haiti all along; it was her parents' home, but she was born and grew up in the U.S. It was where they spent summer vacations, her parents didn't move back there until the kids had all left for college. It seems all along she felt the oppressiveness of a huge class divide while there. So I can certainly see her deciding that the grandparents will have to come to them.

Which does she blame more, her father or Haiti?

Alexa wrote: "Which does she blame more, her father or Haiti?"

that's really good question. i think she blames them in different ways, but you are right, this blame is entirely connected. i think she blames the inequality that has caused her father to close his eyes and his heart.

Yes, and she blames the joy he takes in being among Haiti's upper class, and his unwillingness to settle for being in the American middle class. But of course it's more complicated than that, because it was also racism that drove him back to Haiti.

Alexa wrote: "But of course it's more complicated than that, because it was also racism that drove him back to Haiti."

that's a really good observation. i wish i could say more. the memory of this book is receding and thus details get lost, and only major scenes and impressions remain.

I recently finished this one & wish I'd been able to read it with you all. Great discussion! Usually I demerit a book one star if it contains blatant & unnecessary racism. I reluctantly did the same here because of Gay's portrayal of Haitians. Reluctantly because her depiction of Miri's recollection of her rape, torture, and the aftermath is brilliant. It bypassed the dialogue between Miri & Michael and Miri's bratty behavior in the before. Her summation of the truth of Haiti hit the nail right on the head. I hope to find the exact sentence today, but I need to run some errands. So much to say...

I read An Untamed State earlier this year and just now got to read through everyone's comments here. Of the people who participated in this discussion, I would say my feeling about the book aligns most closely with Wilhelmina's. I felt uncomfortable with the way black men were portrayed in the novel, and the way Haiti was portrayed in the novel, and these discomforts affected my ability to appreciate the good things in the novel.

One positive outcome of my discomfort with Gay's novel was that I've searched for other perspectives on Haiti. I'd like to strongly recommend Brother, I'm Dying by Edwidge Danticat for anyone who feels the need to balance Gay's portrayal of Haitian men with a more nuanced portrayal.

I also made a "Books About Haiti" shelf that I plan to slowly make my way through. Here it is if you also have that interest:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/list...

Great list, Poingu! Have you thought about making it into a Listopia list?

Wilhelmina wrote: "Great list, Poingu! Have you thought about making it into a Listopia list?"

I hadn't thought of that but I just went to Listopia and searched for "Haiti" and discovered that there are extensive lists already, one for Haitian writers and one for non-fiction about Haiti and one specifically about US involvement in Haiti, llnks below.

My list is pretty personal, books I'm sure I want to read. Including David Brion Davis's The Problem of Slavery in the Age of Emancipation is a stretch, for example, but Davis has spent a long time in his career as a historian thinking about why Haiti had the only successful slave revolt in the New World (the world?).

Here are the links to Listopia/Haiti:

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/7...

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/2...

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/3...

Poingu wrote: "I read An Untamed State earlier this year and just now got to read through everyone's comments here. Of the people who participated in this discussion, I would say my feeling about the book aligns ..."

I would guess you just aren't much of a Cornhusker.

George wrote: "I would guess you just aren't much of a Cornhusker. ."

True, I'm more of a Sooner.

I really love the way the conversation here stayed respectful over many pages of comments without ever becoming too careful for there to be good discussion. By reading through the comments I learned a lot about other ways to think about this novel, and also about my own reactions.

I hope I don't mess it up by sharing my feeling here. I felt this was a powerful book about rape and how it affects one woman and her family. It was also about how women are oppressed by men not only through sexual abuse but also by the nature of patriarchy, and how male authority continues to be the primary power in a family.

The novel really had nothing to do with Haiti, in other words. It was about rape and power. So I was bothered by this story being set in Haiti, where all the rapists would have to be black men. What was the need for that? To me the novel echoed centuries of stories of black men portrayed as violent sexual predators. I wish Roxanne Gay had been more thoughtful about this potential reading of her novel.

We need more corrective stories, not stories that repeat the mistakes of the past. It bothers me that there are so few novels about the historical power differential between women of color and white men. The historical accounts are all "captivity narratives" of white women being violated by men of color and that bias continues on to today. I wish Roxanne Gay had taken her force of will and powerful writing voice and had done something to correct that historical silence, rather than make the bad guys once more be black men.

Thanks for posting those lists, Poingu. I added more Danticat and a few others from your personal list, especially "The Problem of Slavery in the Age of Emancipation".

I skimmed through the book twice to find the sentence that jumped out at me that described Haiti succinctly, but none had that same effect as when I first read it. Maybe it was the one on p86: "I explained that there is nowhere in the world both as beautiful and as ugly, as hopeful and as hopeless." Of course, humanity is rife with similar dichotomies. Is it the extremes Haiti must contend with? The original Freed Africans who are now faced with not only rebuilding (still!) after the earthquake but also constant interference from other nations and corruption? Haiti's problems do not have easy solutions; my best hope is knowing Haitians themselves will lead the way to their own solutions.

Tiffany wrote: "Haiti's problems do not have easy solutions; my best hope is knowing Haitians themselves will lead the way to their own solutions. "

One good thing for me about An Untamed State is that its depiction of Haiti made my uncomfortable enough to confront my own ignorance about the country. Until recently I didn't know that Haiti was paying reparations from 1825-1947 to France, to reimburse the slave owners who had lost property and human capital after Haiti's revolution. What is the sense of that? I wonder what the US would be like if we'd been forced to pay back Britain over a similar span of years.

If you like history, Tiffany, I also absolutely recommend The Half Has Never Been Told: Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism, in which the author explains the way money flowed from Haiti and into Louisiana after the Haitian revolution, and how the US benefited from that...the author also believes the US lucked out with the Haitian revolution because it made Napoleon sick enough of the New World to practically give the Louisiana territory to the US. It has taken me a long time to start to understand or even be aware of these historical connections.

Poingu wrote: "Tiffany wrote: "Haiti's problems do not have easy solutions; my best hope is knowing Haitians themselves will lead the way to their own solutions. "

One good thing for me about An Untamed State is..."

I wasn't aware of the reparations issue myself. It's even worse whwn you consider France outlawed slavery but still took reparations.

The US has a long and convoluted history with Haiti. We actually ran the country from 1915 to 1934, occupying it with Marines. This is a period almost no one remembers today, and no one would want to remember, aside from the Haitians of course. It's certainly nothing the Marines would want to sing about.

I didn't know about the reparations to France, the flow of money into Louisiana, & Napoleon's feelings on the matter. Thank you, Poingu & George. The Half Was Never Told is already on my to-read list, I'll have to move it up in importance now.

Uhhh, wow!

http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/20...

Oh dear, I'm afraid there is absolutely no way I could sit and watch that!

Yes, if it's true to the book. it will be more than painful to watch.

George wrote: "Yes, if it's true to the book. it will be more than painful to watch."

Not watching it either.