The History Book Club discussion

This week's reading assignment is:


Week 8 - November 10th - November 16th -> Chapter Eight - Triumvirate (212 - 249)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this discussion.

Welcome,

Vicki and Bryan

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS, SELECT VIEW ALL

by Tom Holland

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Bibliography

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

Chapter Overview and Summaries


8. Triumvirate

Pompey returned from his successful wars in the East and staged a magnificent triumph. However, some in the Senate, led by Cato, thought Pompey needed to be taken down a notch or two and refused to allow land grants to his retiring legionaries. Crassus, who had resented Pompey ever since the latter stole his glory for putting down Spartacus, joined with Cato in opposition to Pompey. Caesar, newly returned from his successful campaigns in Spain, hoped to both run for consul and have his triumph, but he had to abandon the triumph since he had to campaign for the consulship in person inside Rome. He was voted in as consul, but his co-consul, Marcus Bibulus, was a close ally of Cato. Meanwhile, Caesar and Pompey formed an obvious alliance by having Caesar’s daughter Julia marry Pompey. Having his every proposal blocked in the Senate, Caesar took the bill giving Pompey’s veterans the land they had been promised to the People’s Assembly, where it was voted in. To the astonishment of the Optimates, Crassus had joined with Caesar and Pompey in an unofficial triumvirate in order to get some concessions on tax farming. For his pro-consular provinces, where he would govern for five years, Caesar received Illyricum, Cisalpine Gaul (“Gaul on this side of the Alps”) and Transalpine Gaul.

Although Clodius was a patrician, he badly wanted to be elected Tribune of the Plebs, a post he could use to control the rabble. He needed to be adopted by a plebeian and have the adoption approved by a consul. Everyone knew that Clodius wanted to get back at Cicero for not backing him up on his version of events during the Bona Dea scandal, and finally Cicero annoyed Caesar sufficiently for Clodius’ adoption to go through. Once Tribune of the Plebs, Clodius forced Cicero into exile and demolished his house. He also passed many laws helping the poor in Rome and was very popular.

A group called the Helvetians (from modern Switzerland) wanted to migrate west through Transalpine Gaul, but Caesar made them turn back after inflicting much damage. This was technically illegal, but Rome was so frightened of the Gauls, having been sacked by them 300 years ago, that most people applauded the move. He also fought against a group of Germans who had been declared “a friend of the Roman people.” Both moves were proclaimed as being defensive, to prevent incursions into Roman territory by these groups. Caesar kept going north as far as the North Sea, fighting various tribes along the way.

Back in Rome, once Clodius’ term of office as Tribune was up, his gangs were set upon by a rival gang led by a new Tribune named Titus Annius Milo, an ally of Pompey. Sometimes for days at a stretch, there was so much violence in the streets that all business was suspended. Pompey convinced the Senate to rescind Cicero’s banishment, to Clodius’ chagrin. The triumvirate appeared to be weakening, as a new threat in the East appeared to be forming, and both Pompey and Crassus wanted to be assigned command.

This was a hard chapter to summarize, so much is going on. I do feel kind of bad for Pompey, he was really so very accomplished. I wonder what it would have happened if he'd had the self-confidence and determination Caesar had. I have to admit that Caesar is my favorite, although he's not portrayed too sympathetically in this book.

I will completely recommend this book to anyone who is trying to answer the eternal question, "Who in the Roman Republic was a total whore, and why?"

With my Nook search function I can focus on this chapter, and learn that:

Clodia Metelli was a "low-rent hooker" because she had an association with the crossroads.

The comedian who gave her a whorish nickname was "used like a whore" by being gang-raped. (I guess that's what the author think you are supposed to do with them?"

Finally, when Cicero accused Clodius's of selling himself to a client we are told that made him "a whore, just like his sister."

I am anxious to learn who is whorish and why is subsequent chapters.

Too funny, Matthew. Seriously, though, you make an interesting point: the role of prostitution or calling someone a prostitute and how all this fits into Roman society.

The author talks about vanity early in this chapter and keeping yourself young looking. I had to think that if plastic surgery was common back then, many wealthy Romans would have a lot procedures done on them.

What I wish were more fully addressed is not prostitution or vanity -- it is rumormongering.

Cicero reads (assuredly false) letters of a planned Cataline massacre and panic ensues. Clodius is accused of incest, it is believed, but he retains lots in influence. Caesar is a rumored bisexual and the people either don't believe it or don't care. Citizens are exiled due to rumor and then either make a comeback or are never heard from again.

In a world so rife with rumors (true and false) how is a student of history supposed to come to the truth?

Matthew wrote: "... In a world so rife with rumors (true and false) how is a student of history supposed to come to the truth? ..."

Interesting and disturbing question, Matthew. We have the ancient sources, but they could be biased or merely passing on rumors. Holland talks about the various ancient sources in the first part of his bibliography, but he doesn't address the question of what might have been just rumor and what was true.

I am amazed with all of the rumors, personal attacks, and decadence that anything ever got done.

It sounds like present day politics here. (smile)

This reminds me that lots of election (and other, more salacious) graffiti was found on the walls of Pompeii.

http://www.livescience.com/26164-pomp...
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history...

Vicki wrote: "This reminds me that lots of election (and other, more salacious) graffiti was found on the walls of Pompeii.

http://www.livescience.com/26164-pomp...
http://www..."

Wow, I did not know that.

I have to agree Vicki - can you imagine someone in a neighborhood allowing someone to scribble a political sign on the side or front of their house? The actual siding of the house.

This is what fascinates me about ancient history, and maybe why I feel less on secure grounds: the few sources that exist.

I am used to documents and oral histories to triangulate. I get a sense for historians of ancient history, there is much more speculation or inference that you have to do.

All history has to do this, of course. If most of the sources do throw accusations out and don't have other sources to rely on, we are left with a bit of a mess. Perhaps Holland is playing it up more than other academics might...yet I have not looked at the records, either.

Vicki wrote: "This reminds me that lots of election (and other, more salacious) graffiti was found on the walls of Pompeii..."

this is great, Vicki, fascinating. Thank you.

Do you get the impression with a long history of violence in Roman society it is easier for politicians to use it as a means to an end?

I just read about the trial of Caesar's lieutenants. Holland writes, "Clodius's gang piled in, mugging the judge where he sat and smashing up the court. The trial itself was permanently abandoned. As an exercise in controlled thuggery, its success appears to have exceeded the expectations of even Clodius himself." (p. 231)

What's really strange is that there was neither a police force nor fire department, and bringing someone to trial, whether civil or criminal, was left up to citizens. And the prosecuting lawyers were also not part of the government. In fact, Rome didn't seem to have much of a government structure outside of the few elected officials, like consul, aedile, etc.

Great point, Vicki, so true.

Clodius is such an interesting (if scary) character. First he foments a mutiny against his brother-in-law Lucullus, then he dresses as a woman to attend the Bona Dea rites, next he gets adopted by a plebeian so he can be elected Tribune of the Plebs. Apparently his adoptive "father," Publius Fonteius, was about half his age.

Vicki wrote: "Clodius is such an interesting (if scary) character. First he foments a mutiny against his brother-in-law Lucullus, then he dresses as a woman to attend the Bona Dea rites, next he gets adopted by..."

LOL
Crazy stuff.

I see some modern parallels with the War on Terror and Gaul:

"Scares on this scale were not quickly forgotten. No wonder that most citizens, when they heard the news of the Helvetians' defeat, cared nothing for the laws that might have been broken to achieve it. After all, what greater duty did a proconsul have than to secure the safety of Rome?" (p. 236)

Bryan wrote: "I see some modern parallels with the War on Terror and Gaul: ..."

True. Interesting that for centuries afterwards, they crucified dogs because they didn't warn about the Gauls, and conversely lauded geese because they did.

What a dizzying chapter! While reading about the wars with the Gauls, I kept picturing the Asterix and Obelix cartoons, which my kids used to love.

by René Goscinny