I love Alpha Male books club discussion

I hate first person. Most of the time it comes across as amateurish writing. There are exceptions, of course. But most of the first person books I read could be so much better written in third person (in my ever so humble opinion).

Why do YOU think so many erotica writers write in first person?

First person is more personal. It's like getting in the characters heads. They are telling you personally how they are feeling, what they are feeling, what they are hearing, what they are touching, and what they are smelling. Erotica or really any romance relies on intimacy to sell the love story. If I'm hearing about the romance of two people falling in love I want to hear it from them. It would be like you telling me the epic love story of someone you know, and that is second hand information. If I want to hear about a grand love I want to hear it from those two people. It is their story to tell. First person dual POV always works best for me in a romance so I can hear from the characters themselves how they fell in love.

You're right in that sometimes it doesn't come off the way it should. Usually for me if I'm not feeling the first person voice very well, it's because there's too much inner monologue. I want to know their private thoughts, but I also want good dialogue as well. In other words I want the characters to show me through their thoughts, voice, and actions how they fell in love.

Completely agree with Beth, good answer :)

Well said Beth. Totally agree.

beth myrick wrote: "First person is more personal. It's like getting in the characters heads. They are telling you personally how they are feeling, what they are feeling, what they are hearing, what they are touchin..."

Perfectly said.

I don't like first person either. I agree with Melly that many come off as amateurish or very young. Many also have trouble staying in first person.

Beth, you make a great point in why authors may write this way. But I have found way too often that a good writer can make me get in the characters head much better in third person than so many of these first person writers.

I agree first person is definitely more personal. But that is the problem.

Number one - I am reading it. Usually when I read "I did this, I said this, I thought this..." whatever, my mind tries to put myself in that scenario, and more often than not it ends up being very awkward.

Number two - it IS very personal - but only for one person. When I am reading a romance or erotica in first person I tend to only bond with one character - the character speaking to me. The other character (usually the male) just becomes an accessory to the character whose viewpoint I am seeing everything through. But in third person an author can draw us close to any character they want too.

I won't argue that done correctly by a writer who can draw a reader into a strong story, third person can work. There are many books that I've read and loved that were written in third person. However, third person can be made stronger I feel by adding dual POV. I think a lot of writers may realize this because many books written from one POV will become the first book of a sequel from the other character's POV. I don't know why it's done that way when dual POV could have served the purpose in one novel.

In a romance two people are falling in love, and I find it more engaging to have both sides of the story. First person POV doesn't have to be awkward if the writer employs is correctly. When I read third person I sometimes feel like I'm reading a case of 'he said, she said'. Yes, many writers can mess up the whole concept of first person by making it read like a diary, and that isn't only awkward but really boring. Writers that really know how to make first person dual POV work will use a dialogue more than inner monologue. They will also employ the lovely art of showing rather than telling what is happening. And for the love of all that is holy, they will not retell every single thing over from one point of view to the next.

A big bonus for me when it comes to first person POV as well as dual POV is I think it makes the characters accountable for their thoughts and actions. For example...when the characters aren't together what's going on when they are apart. If I'm only being told one side of the story then I'm not connecting with the character whose voice I'm not hearing. So, if a cheating scene pops up then that character is going to let me know WTH he or she was thinking or feeling.

I think every reader is going to have their preferences when it come to characters and POV's. It's also going to be the burden of the writer to sell their story satisfactorily whether it's first or third, so single or dual. Both ways can be successful in their own way.

"Yes, many writers can mess up the whole concept of first person by making it read like a diary, and that isn't only awkward but really boring."

This, this, and more this.

This is what I see mostly when I read first person. I have read more than a few books in first person that I did enjoy. But so often I run into this and I think it has just made me start auto-hating anything written in first person until it proves me wrong and I start to like it. I actually beta read a couple stories for one author who writes in first person and I loved them - but still everytime thought of it being in first person my hackles went up and I started snarling lol.

Ok not that bad, but you HAVE made me consider its not the PoV thats bad, but the authors I have been reading.

I totally understand being turned off a writer because of one experience, but I'm always hoping if i give them another chance reviews of their books may have them improve things for their next book. Our review, if we are honest in them, can hopefully open up minds of not only readers but writers as well.

Yep. I have a love/hate relationship with giving bad reviews. I hate it because I am afraid I am going to hurt someones feelings, especially since I have a tendency to be...dry. Bordering sarcastic.

At the same time I love it because I adore books. I love reading, writing, basically anything to do with books. It can be very frustrating to see a book with so much potential that never gets the chance to shine. I get a chance to put my opinion out there on what went wrong - or right - with the book.

But anyway I am getting way off topic lol. Thanks for the thoughtful responses!

Melly wrote: "I hate first person. Most of the time it comes across as amateurish writing. There are exceptions, of course. But most of the first person books I read could be so much better written in third pers..."

It is so easy for a first person book to venture into the Mary Sue lane, IMO.

I just finished reading Assumptions by Melanie Codina, and really it was a pretty decent read with first person dual POV. It's not erotica by any means. It's your typical straightforward NA romance. The dialogue and personal inner monologues are balanced well enough that both characters engage you and hold your interest.

I understand that finding good first person POV is tedious when a writer of erotica stages a love scene and makes it sound like a step-by-step account of what is going on. When I read books like that I'm constantly thinking use your words. Be creative. Use your knowledge of sentence structure. Sometimes I even wonder did they not go back and read what they wrote and pick up on the awkwardness of what the wrote. Again, they can only improve if we as readers point out how we felt reading their work. If we don't it sends the message that we thought they were doing fine and nothing will change for them or us.

I know I use sarcasm a lot in my reviews. I also know sometimes I can be a little harsh. I can't help it. If I pay for a book or invest time in reading a book, then I expect, no demand, the writer's best effort and sometimes I finish a book, sit back, and say 'really, that's what you're expecting me to be happy reading'.

I have creative writing students that on their worst day produce for me better work than what I sometimes find myself paying for, and they are in high school. Of course, I push my students hard to turn out their best work possible. They know mediocre attempts coming across my desk will cause me to bleed red in a big way on their papers. So, in order to avoid the wrath of me and my red pen they push themselves. I think this is kind of what drives me to post some of the reviews I do. Maybe if the writer sees my review they will say 'I'll show her'. Honestly, I don't care if it pisses them off or hurts their feelings if it will cause them to open up to improving or bettering their future work then I did my part for better reading in the future. Maybe I'm deluding myself about this, but I find myself giving readers who have disappointed me in one book a second chance and then am pleasantly surprised when I see better material. Whether that has anything to do with me, I have no idea.

John wrote: "When someone writes in first person, it usually means it was something personal, something that they experienced themselves. It might not be the whole story that they experienced, but they were the..."

John, I don't believe that necessarily. So many books are written in first nowadays because a lot of authors are trying to catch the Twilight/Fifty Shades lightening in a bottle, and it's a fad. Almost every contemporary romance/erotica novel written in the last couple of years is first person. Even the dinosaur porn . That obviously isn't based on personal experiences. That might be the case for you, but it can't be for every writer, or even most. Especially when most make a big deal about not confusing their work with them as person. First person is selling, so everyone is doing it.

I won't read anything that is not in first person. I have tried to read books in third person, but I always end up putting the book down because I can't seem to feel a connection with the characters. I love the way first person connects you with the story on a personal level.

C. wrote: "I won't read anything that is not in first person. I have tried to read books in third person, but I always end up putting the book down because I can't seem to feel a connection with the character..."

Well I've been a reader all my life (42 years old), with most everything being in third person, until Fifty Shades. Now everything is first. First doesn't bother me so much in Urban Fantasy, and until recently couldn't put my finger on why it drove me crazy in romance until finding books from the hero's point of view (that were wonderful). I hate the recent influx of first person romance/erotica because they are told from the viewpoint of a lot of heroines that are really annoying. Urban Fantasy heroines are bad ass, have purpose, and have lives outside of the hero for the most part. A lot of the recent heroines in erotic romance are kind of TSTL, self involved, and whiny. I have actually read that writers purposely write the heroines bland on purpose, so it's easier for the reader to insert herself in the story. Nothing makes a book longer than trapped inside the head of a character you aren't feeling, never understanding what the hero sees in her, while she spends the whole book being insecure. This type of heroine works better in third person to me because her faults tend to come off better, IMO. I loved Julie Garwood's historical heroines with their wide-eyed innocence and pluck. I cringe to think what my opinion of the same heroines if told today in first.

I used to loathe first person POV. Even now I sometimes struggle through when I don't like the h. If she is overly angsty or whiny, I just can't connect, though it would be like that in third person, also.

However, eventually I came around and started to enjoy feeling like I'm in the book. When I write, I do it in the first person POV because it allows me to connect and get the story out. I feel like a lot more emotion and depth comes from immersing myself in the main character.

All of that being said, I always try to be mindful about not making my h be annoyingly angsty/whiny/introspective, and instead I focus on dialogue(and an often comical/pervy inner monologue).

layla,
You sound like my kind of writer. Would love to know what you've got out there so I could check it out.

I am so totally with you when it comes to irritating as hell heroines. I like witty back and forth, not plain bitchiness. I like couples that stick around, not run away every other chapter. Yea, cause nothing says 'i love you' or 'I want you' like running, disappearing, or pushing away someone your supposed to be falling in love with. I like cat and mouse games when it's like sexy foreplay and teasing, not because some scared sniveling female character can't make up her mind because she doesn't want to get hurt. I like when the H and h laugh and take care of crazy exes together. I love dialogue with dirty thought monologue. I love a romance where the angst is centered around something everyday real and not based on miscommunication, jealousy, fear, pride, broken hearts, sad past....pretty much everything that is in every romance book out there. How about an I see him/her, feel the attraction, feed the slow burn, turn up the heat, level out, and live a good ole HEA. Throw in a great group of friends and family and boom, you got a romance pretty much like happens everyday.

They say that you read romance to live out fantasies or some thing like that, and that makes me stop and wonder....do women fantasize about being sad, broken, whiny, weak, and nearly all around pathetic so some hot, sexy manwhore that apparently everyone wants rescues you from your owe so sad life? Come on, I don't want to be that woman. I'll take that man though, just in my way.

beth myrick wrote: "layla,
You sound like my kind of writer. Would love to know what you've got out there so I could check it out.

I am so totally with you when it comes to irritating as hell heroines. I like witt..."
Beth - you sound like my kind of reader! I'm sending you a PM right now with something you might be interested in.

I've been writing in first person and completely agree with Layla - it helps me to feel part of the story, to understand the emotions and thoughts from the characters headspace. There's plenty of dialogue mixed with some fun, often conflicting inner dialogue - think about it, how often do people say what they're really feeling in certain situations?
I don't actually write erotica, but its a full on steamy sexy romance.
As a reader, I struggle to get into third person, because to me, THAT feels like I'm being told what is happening. I feel like I'm sitting in the corner of the room and someone is narrating what I can see happening in front of me, like an annoying voiceover on TV or something. Having said that, there have been a few third person that I have enjoyed but they didn't capture my attention as much as first person.

For me first person puts you in the mix. You're along for the ride. If it's written well enough then you are able to transition right from one character to the other and experience everything with them. I love dual POV, but sometimes being in the head of some heroines is so frustrating that I actually want to scream, "women aren't really like that".

But yea, the more personal a writer can make it for me the more I'm going to enjoy it. I don't wanna be a casual observer, mix me up in it. I wish more writers would get the whole concept of show me. Don't tell me he makes you smile. Show me he makes you smile. I don't wanna read, we had a good time. What did you do. Third person is so often me listening to some narrator telling me how other people feel when I wanna know from the characters themselves.

Anyway, sounds like we have like minds. Whatever you have to send I'll give it a good read. I don't read erotica all the time either. I love a good sexy NA because let's face it hot young college guys, yeah. I loved college. Remember the thrill of first days off class, sporting events, hot professors, clubbing, partying....good times...the best of times. NA takes me away from grading papers, taking care of an 11 year old, paying bills...all the lovely adult responsibilities I have to face day in and day out. So, if I wanna escape to that happy time in my life before all the heavy when the most responsible thing I had to worry about was getting to class or turning in a paper on time then, NA romantic fiction....take me away. Whoo.

That being said, I do still like a good contemporary romance as well....I am an adult sometimes. I'm 47 and my daughter tells me daily I need to act my age...yeah right.

So my address is [email protected] send what you have PDF and I'll down load it to my kindle. Looking forward to what ya got

Yes, first person creates a more intimate type of storytelling for the author to reach the reader through the characters. I'm not a huge fan of erotica, but if it passes as a romance with hot love scenes, then I might be inclined to read it. Not the other way around. I like a thrilling story and reason why a couple are getting down right and steamy. Not a wham-bam-thank-you ma'me piece of stroke lit. But there are so many kinds in the erotica genre. It's pot luck. Most authors that I've met have started out there and grown to become better, more accomplished writers.
I used to love 3rd person narrative voice telling the character's stories, but after reading a few well written 1st person books, I'm a 1st person convert 100%. I find it hard now as an author to go back to the 3rd person writing style. Even harder to read it. Especially if it isn't executed properly.

Phoenix, I would be interested to read some of your Iriding. Throw some of titles my way. First person POV interest me anytime.

Jennifer wrote: "I find this topic interesting. For me, I'm just the opposite. I find it easier to read and write from 3rd person POV. My first erotica novel , is written i..."

Sorry, about the response to an old thread here. I'm just getting tuned in to GoodReads.

Jennifer = Not weird. I think you've an excellent point. I used to write 100% first person, now it's the exact opposite. As you say "watching the scene from all angles" is true. Setting scenes and the interaction between characters can be 100 times more complete in the 3rd person. Plot lines can be much more complex and interesting as well.

Plus, all of the above, without losing any of the up-close-and-personal aspects of the story.

How about taking into consideration the POV of the reader?

Examples:

--------
"Drake ran a cold sliver of ice across my shoulders on that hot day in June. I turned to fix my gaze on his hazel eyes. My senses were trapped in the tension of the moment."

"Drake ran a cold sliver of ice across her shoulders on that hot day in June. She turned to fix her gaze on his hazel eyes. Their senses were trapped in the tension of the moment."
--------

The second example is much more compelling, at least for me. I get a better view of the scene as I am reading it. It's as if I am there watching the two characters becoming enmeshed with one another. Whereas the first example leans a little toward a though-the-keyhole kind of perspective.


Now, just to head off one possible argument – Is this because I am a (hetero) male? No. I get the same impression when I read the following:

--------
"Michelle ran a cold sliver of ice across my shoulders on that hot day in June. I turned to fix my gaze on her hazel eyes. My senses were trapped in the tension of the moment."

"Michelle ran a cold sliver of ice across his shoulders on that hot day in June. He turned to fix his gaze on her hazel eyes. Their senses were trapped in the tension of the moment."
--------

Overall, I believe it is only a bit more of a challenge to write in the 3rd person. However if the challenge is met, then author is able to involve the reader in the story with greater degree of empathy; not less.

My two cents :-)

It takes a really spectacular writer to write in third person and keep the reader invested all the time. I look at third person for the most part like this....gossip. it's someone telling you someone else's story. It's what they see. Picture it like this. You observe a couple together and then go tell your friends what you saw. When you tell your friends, are you sincerely and adequately telling them what the couple were experiencing or what YOU thing the were experiencing. Third person is like someone telling someone else's story, and I'm one of those that like to hear the story from the character's POV. Unless the writer has outstanding creative writing skills that are usually mastered over time, he or she isn't going to get the investment that every dedicated writer wants from an audience.

beth myrick wrote: "It takes a really spectacular writer to write in third person and keep the reader invested all the time. I look at third person for the most part like this....gossip. it's someone telling you som..."

I don't know about that. I have read thousands of books, but have DNF'd more books in the past 3 years, than the total for my combined previous reading experience. Most due to first person perspectives of annoying heroines. I have been reading bodice rippers full of flighty women for decades, but third person doesn't make a reader feel trapped inside an annoying person's life. It's easier to be an observer, and to trust the narrative of what's happening. I think it might be easier for writers to create first person work, but actually harder to pull off effectively.

Annoying heroines are going to be in just about every book now days. As for being in their heads and listening to their annoying thoughts, well that is entirely on the writer. I can't stand books where an author isn't capable of providing dialogue. The key to successful first person POV is developing a character and giving that character a voice, personality, and behavior that is consistent through the read, whether your in their head or listening to their voice. I've DNF quite a few books that are both first and third person. A good writer can pull off both successfully. I guess POV can depend on if you want to be a spectator or participant. With first person I can put myself more in the story rather than outsider observing. I want the character to speak more to me rather than someone speaking for the character.

beth myrick wrote: "...A good writer can pull off both successfully. ..."

I think the key to that is a "good writer", versus okay, or struggling writer. I'm a chronic book finisher. It's hard to me to put books down, once started. Yet I've noticed this compulsion being severely challenged since almost every romance novel became first person exclusive. I have been able to stick it out through some awful third person bodice rippers, and Harlequin presents. Yet have been failed by honestly better written recent first person CR mainly because of dislike of the narrator. In most third person, the account is neutral. In first, if a reader doesn't vibe with the character telling the story, it's more of a problem because the reader can't trust judgement, or their version of events. I found myself judging the heroine less harshly in third, versus examining every logic fail as told to me from their perspective. This problem is fixed for me when the story is told from multiple characters sometimes, though.

Hi, I've literally just joined this group, and this discussion thread caught my eye, and it's very interesting to read the various well-expressed views and comments. As a writer, I have written from both a first person and third person perspective - hopefully not in the same story - though as an earlier commentator pointed out... that can be a danger!
I would agree that a first person POV is more immediate and intimate than a third person 'he said, she said' approach, but, that said, I believe there are advantages and disadvantages to each.
In first person we may only get to know other characters through dialogue and the first person response to their actions and expressions, as interpreted by them... i.e. as a reader we cannot get into the head and thoughts of other characters in as direct a way as third person narrative, which can give insights from each character's POV. So, it will depend on whether the writer wants the reader to be aware of the H's or h's intentions and thought processes, as to which style is employed.
I agree with the previous commentator that enjoyment of a book will depend on how well the reader can connect with the protagonists, although whether or not we like them may be a contentious issue, because sometimes the intention may be to deliberately want the reader to question a character's motivations, and indeed their judgement. I do think though, that, in immersing ourselves in a novel, we need to be able to trust the writer to carry us safely to the end of the story, and a hopefully satisfactory resolution. For me, as a voracious reader, if a book is well-written and enjoyable, I'm not really thinking about whether it's a first person or a third person account.

beth myrick wrote: "It takes a really spectacular writer to write in third person and keep the reader invested all the time. I look at third person for the most part like this....gossip. it's someone telling you som..."

I think this would be true in the context you describe.

Indeed, if you approach your work in a journalistic fashion such as what you describe, then yes. Frankly, I am not sure how one would make such a thing personal or intimate at all.

Rather than having to be a "spectacular writer," the way I see it – One only has to achieve the level of imagination where they can relate POVs of the various characters in the store, while at the same time, giving the story a narrative quality.

So if one considers the "scene" to also include the personalities, or internal qualities of the characters, then we begin to get to conveying an intimate work of 3rd person writing.

Bottom line, changing, "I felt…" to "She felt…," or, "He felt" should not take that much of a leap with regard to retaining a good level of engagement of the reader.

Just my humble opinion.

Too many times I have read erotic scenes or just any intimate scene where it reads like a navigational experience. I could turn on my GPS system and get to the same place. When you compare these two brief examples:

"He touched her breasts which made her moan. She shivered at his touch. Moving down he trailed his fingers over her stomach....."

"I moaned as he touched my breasts. I couldn't stop the shiver his fingers on my skin sent through my body. His touch continued over my stomach, causing all my nerve endings to hum....."

I don't want a step by step replay of a love scene from what I feel someone is telling me that isn't "part" of the scene. In the first example it could have been someone peeking in a window telling me what was going on between the couple. In the second example someone was telling me how they genuinely felt as a man touched her. It made it much more personal, and if I'm going to invest time and money in a book, then I want personal.

Now, all that being said, YES there are some writers who can really write third person and do it well. There are also some writers who can write first person and blow it all to hell. Again, it all comes down to the creativity of the writer. It also comes down to a readers preference, and there are a lot of old school readers who can't get on board with first person.

I teach creative writing and so it must be said that I read it all and I teach it all. My students are divided pretty much when it comes to this. I've noticed this in who writes what. The ones who are more sure of themselves personally and socially will more often than not go for first person. Those who are more shy or less sure of themselves socially will keep their writing more impersonal. I have always attributed this to them wanting to keep me from seeing them to closely. Third person writing gives them that protective curtain they seem to crave from me as well as the rest of the class. When it's a free writing assignment that gives them the choice of first or third, it will be third every time. Don't get me wrong, they are good at what they do because third person gives them a comfort zone they can create in and still not divulge too much of themselves. My first person enthusiasts seem to let everything about themselves come through. I see their own personalities come to life as well as alter egos they live vicariously through. Their secrets, desires, dreams, feelings, and even nightmares are broadcasted through their characters. In first person they don't hold back. They don't hide and write like they're reporting the news. The kicker about my first person writers is their ability to even write third person well, but the subjects are heavier. I'm still trying to come to some kind of understanding of why, even after 24 years of teaching high school and college classes.

To just tweak the above third person and first person examples slightly:

'His hand slid down to touch her breasts now, while she moaned and shivered with exquisite longing... now her stomach... his fingers trailing... "Oh... oh," she couldn't contain small gasps of pleasure as every nerve-ending hummed in response.'

"Oohh," I moaned as he touched my breasts. I couldn't stop the shiver running through my body as his fingers trailed across my stomach... every nerve ending humming... etc. etc.'

I think that as long as the reader is invested in the scene, both might work equally well?

To comment on above tweaks. Both are excellent. The ones I pulled in my examples the top being the actual roadmap to the beginning of a love scene. The second was how I wish it would have gone.

I think, after much consideration, that the writer's investment in the story will be reflected in the reading. If an author actually takes time to read what the have written and make the necessary adjustments to make the words flow then any POV can be successful.

It sounds like YOU are a good writer from those tiny blurbs...have you published anything?

Thank you. I am very flattered by your comments. I have self-published several books in the 'erotic romance' genre, for Kindle on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/author/j.r.james

I am also a Goodreads author. I think that clicking on my icon will take you to my profile.
I intend to offer one of my books 'Love by Design - Taken Altogether', which is some 700 pages plus, at half-price this coming weekend, if you are interested.

Thanks for the heads up. Checking it out now.