Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

If anyone would like to lead the discussion for this month’s book, please let me know. Thanks

Queenie is a Target Department store Diverse Book Club Pick. The author has traveled across the pond to sign copies of Queenie next week. Watch out for her.

Hello everyone,

Here’s the reading schedule for Queenie which will be led by Janet.

Dec 1-7 Chapters 1-6
Dec 8-14 Chapters 7-12
Dec 15-21 Chapters 13-22
Dec 22-29 Chapters 23-30
December 29 - 31 whole book

Happy reading all!

Has anyone read the reviews and comments about this book on GR? Polarizing is an understatement. Could be quite an interesting discussion.

Columbus and all - apologies for posting this in multiple places -- hope this gets us to the discussion thread.

Haven't yet seen those; did find these reviews.
All

Some information about Queenie, and author Candice Carty-Williams, in anticipation of our discussion next month.



- author website: http://www.candicecartywilliams.com/

- Bookish author interview https://www.bookish.com/articles/quee...

all of these reviews give away bits and pieces of the plot; if you want to read and find out what a book is about as you go, you might want to wait and read these later.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/201... - Guardian review, might want to wait, some indirect spoilers

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-re... - Kirkus review, also a bit of spoiler, but not as much

https://www.litlovers.com/reading-gui... summary - again, you might want to wait, but gives away the fewest details

Queenie made the cut for the prestigious Costa Award for first or debut novel. Congrats!

https://www.costa.co.uk/behind-the-be...

She’s in the Guardian, too....

https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...

My library copy arrived today. I should be finished with my current read just in time to join the discussion.

William and all,

Our discussion of Queenie starts tomorrow; this week we'll be discussing Chapters 1 through 6. Will be glad to hear people's reactions to this early part of the book. Not so spoiler an alert - interesting to see the interweaving of text messages into the narrative.

I'm about 1/4 way in. I sure hope something soon occurs to elevate it beyond the sassy Black girl, second gen immigrant, Londoner, interracial romance novel its been so far. The doctor's visit on the first page I thought forecast a look at women's health issues but that's taken a back seat so far to Queenie and her friends couplings. And Queenie's so in love that SHE apologizes for causing a scene when her White boyfriend stands idly by as his racist uncle calls her the n word!? This one might get put on the did not finish shelf...

Without giving too much away, William, health and related issues will reappear.

Wonder how others are getting on with the first several chapters?

I was glad to see this book being discussed as I put it down and stopped reading after the first few chapters. Hopefully comments from the group will spark my interest and make me pick it up to read again.

I just thought I'd mention that there was an interesting discussion of "Queenie" in the "Read and Recommended" thread back in June. Several people had issues with the book/character.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I think the word "detached" is important. It's used to describe Queenie. Looking at the word and thinking about it, detached here is pointing to more than Queenie's difficulty to explain herself or to grow closer to Tom. Her baby has become detached from her body because of the wandering IUD. There is her inability to face arguments. She would rather shut up and walk away from an argument about racism. Also, there is the delicate and embarrassing moment when her female personal products seem to slip away from her rucksack. It seems like all parts of Queenie are getting dropped or lost.

I am interested in learning about why it's difficult for her to face racism or to gently correct the nurse about her position on the newspaper.

Thanks, Bloom - hadn't thought of the notion of detachment in that way. It's interesting to think about it - and Queenie herself. To me she seemed both incredibly attached to people/things/ideas (Tom, especially, in his absence) but then, as you point out, is unable to communicate her needs in ways that help gets them met.

It calls power, race and gender into question and sharp focus in multiple ways.

I read this book several months ago, so was waiting until the whole book is being discussed to make comments as I do not remember what happened when.

I do believe this is a book that either appeals to you or it does not.

While this book does look at some serious issues or at least issues that young people might encounter in contemporary society, I do believe that this story was written with a certain vibe that will be more intriguing/interesting/appealing to certain readers.

Over 100 members voted for this book, so I am hoping to more members will be joining this discussion.

Oh, I think this book is good for any age, past twenty, far past twenty. Older adults text, older adults date and they do date interracially which can lead to guys with false values. To me, Queenie is better off without Tom. There are certain red flags.

Bloom wrote: "Oh, I think this book is good for any age, past twenty, far past twenty. Older adults text, older adults date and they do date interracially which can lead to guys with false values. To me, Queenie..."

I agree that the issues occur in people of all ages.
And have been written about by many authors and each has their own way of telling their story and each one probably appeals to a certain range of readers.

I believe as one of my friends has always said - "Every book is not for everyone, but every book is for somebody."

At the beginning I remember thinking that Queenie had a self-esteem issue and was glad she had a support system.

Bloom wrote: "Oh, I think this book is good for any age, past twenty, far past twenty. Older adults text, older adults date and they do date interracially which can lead to guys with false values. To me, Queenie..."

But I thought that Queenie wanted to be with Tom more than she wanted to see the red flags.

She was not seeing (or at least admitting to herself) what we as a reader see.

Janet wrote: "To me she seemed both incredibly attached to people/things/ideas (Tom, especially, in his absence) but then, as you point out, is unable to communicate her needs in ways that help gets them met."

Queenie does seem to miss Tom. I am not sure he is missing her as much. I worry about Queenie's man picking skills. I am glad Janet to see you use the word "communicate." I've spent some time thinking about communication with one another while reading these chapters. SPOILER Why is it so difficult for Tom to tell his friends that he has a Black girlfriend, and why can't he speak up to his Uncle about the racist remark? The phone is mentioned immediately in the first sentence and there are many references to texts. I want to write communication is one of the author's immediate concerns.

Beverly wrote: "I read this book several months ago, so was waiting until the whole book is being discussed to make comments as I do not remember what happened when.

I do believe this is a book that either appeal..."

I am waiting for whole book being open for discussion to discuss it because I don't feel like I can discuss it without the whole book being open.

Beverly wrote: "At the beginning I remember thinking that Queenie had a self-esteem issue and was glad she had a support system.

Yes, I thought of Queenie's self esteem too. I feel Queenie thinks intimacy with a man will make the sun shine brighter the next day. Therefore, she faces each task of her day with strength.

Beverly wrote: "Bloom wrote: "Oh, I think this book is good for any age, past twenty, far past twenty. Older adults text, older adults date and they do date interracially which can lead to guys with false values. ..."

This book, as in your quote, was definitely NOT for me. Nor do I think for any other self-respecting Black man. A quality sorely missing in the Queenie character. Anyone who has read to the end can guess my reasoning. So I'll bow out till the whole book is discussed and at that point release my vitriol.

Beverly wrote "This book, as in your quote, was definitely NOT for me. Nor do I think for any other self-respecting Black man. A quality sorely missing in the Queenie character. Anyone who has read to the end can guess my reasoning. So I'll bow out till the whole book is discussed and at that point release my vitriol."

Oh boy, I am not nearly finished the novel. I have been following the chapter reading schedule. I can't wait to find out the ending. Can't wait to hear your words about it too.

I almost, maybe, perhaps, can see your point about thinking about and mentioning the Black male. I am looking forward to reading your thoughts about the ending.

William wrote: "Beverly wrote: "Bloom wrote: "Oh, I think this book is good for any age, past twenty, far past twenty. Older adults text, older adults date and they do date interracially which can lead to guys wit..."

I'm reading it as a black man myself and I find it hard to like Queenie as a character. She comes off as a beat who makes very questionable decisions. I'm seriously contemplating dropping the book.

Janet wrote: "It calls power, race and gender into question and sharp focus in multiple ways."

I have been thinking about these three words ever since they were written by Janet. They seem very important.

Bloom wrote: "Janet wrote "It calls power, race and gender into question and sharp focus in multiple ways."

I have been thinking about these three words ever since they were written by Janet. They are significant.

I finished this book months ago but, I was happy to see it picked for a group read. I’m patiently waiting for you all to finish before I discuss because I don’t want to spoil. But, I do want to encourage the black men in the group to keep reading! I look forward to your perspective after you read the ending!

I think the interesting and maybe most difficult thing about Queenie is, you are reading her story backwards. Stick with it!

I do wish I hadn't written the earlier post. I obviously don't speak for all black men or even those in the group. I had lots of problems with the Queenie character but one in particular concerning black men. I encourage all readers to continue and draw their own conclusions.

Thanks, William - appreciate your perspective, glad you're posting your thoughts. Wondering how others are responding to Queenie as a character by now.

I know that had I read the blurbs [praising? it as] "a black Bridget Jones Diary" - I'd have run from the book. It's so much more than that, it's layered, and/but also, as others have said, maybe not for everyone at a given moment. This week we're looking at Chapters 7-12. I had to return my copy as well, so, likely Shawnerly am also looking forward to our discussion of the book overall.

Also, very much looking forward to hearing what people are thinking about these chapters we have read so far.

Bloom wrote: "Janet wrote: "To me she seemed both incredibly attached to people/things/ideas (Tom, especially, in his absence) but then, as you point out, is unable to communicate her needs in ways that help get..."

Bloom -

You raised some interesting questions regarding Tom.
I actually did not find Tom's reaction unusual.
There could be many reasons for his reaction.
It could be that Tom really did not know how to respond (I am not supporting him) but he probably never really thought about how he felt about race/racist comments as in his world the issues of race do not affect him, so no need to think about it in depth or at least beyond a very high superficial level.

Also Tom may have been able to separate his feeling about Queenie separate to how he feels about non-white people in general. Maybe he did not think what his uncle said was racist or that is just how his uncle was as that is how he grew up.

What an interesting discussion. As expected, this book is ripe for discussing and can be quite polarizing.

Sara: thanks for locating the part of the thread where we previously discussed this. (See msg #14). The review in question received 400+ likes.

I received an ebook from either netgalley or some other book site, placed it in a special compartment/file and now can’t locate it anywhere. I figured I could go to it when I decided to read it and now can’t locate it. Fingers crossed my library will have it.

I’m listening to the audiobook and I’m not sure if that makes a difference in how I feel or not. I tried to read the hard copy and couldn’t get into it and this form is much easier to listen to.
I do not like Queenie. I realize that Jamaicans have a tendency to be tight lipped about their experiences especially when those experiences involve abuse (not generalizing an entire country but more referencing the folks in my corner of Portland Parish). I’m not siding with Tom exactly but there is only so much a person can do in a relationship when communication is not a priority. Queenie seems to expect him to be there but she doesn’t open up about things that could help their relationship progress. She has no sense of self and no idea of what really makes her happy. It seems to me that she was so happy to have a savior in Tom, that she ignored everything else about him including how she is treated by his family. With Tom, Queenie doesn’t have to think about her baggage or really address them because he doesn’t force the issue. If it weren’t for this discussion, I’m not sure I would even finish the book. She does not know herself and her strength is lost in that.

I see this will be a very nuanced discussion. I'm pulling the book from my DNF pile, and will try again.

I wish we had seen more of Queenie's family dynamic earlier book. Honestly if I wasn't reading this book for the group I would have dropped it earlier. Queenie, her friends, and her sexual partners are very unlikeable. Although it is intentional in the case of the men, Carty-Williams does not do a good job of making the readers empathize with Queenie and the other characters. Protagonists don't necessarily have to be likable but the reader needs to empathize with them at some level. I honestly couldn't empathize with Queenie until seeing her interact with her mother in Chapter 12. It really shouldn't take that line. I find Carty-Williams spend too much time telling us things instead of showing us through the character's thoughts and actions. There's not much introspection -- although that might be intentional -- buy it makes hard to see her as anything more than a "Carrie Bradshaw" analogue.

Interesting responses all around - I'm wondering how/if our responses may have to do with the ways in which we all view gender and sex and power and family? It surely is complicated.

Really appreciate the different points of view - one of the reasons I like this group so much is that our multiple readings and understandings of the books we've read all add to our collective ways of thinking and knowing things differently. It's great to have our views affirmed; it's also differently great and compelling to need to think about how and why others understand the same things we've all read.

This week opens up chapters 13-22.

How's everyone getting on with the book?

I finished Queenie a while ago and there are a LOT of cringeworthy moments the overall discussion is her perspective of herself, her family, her traumas and finding a way back to herself. I think it’s a difficult book to get through because she has so little self love but it’s a story that we don’t get to see of lost, very flawed, London black women who dates outside her race.


I did want to shake her, so many times and yell at her. I was convinced and invested though. The audiobook always adds an extra layer for me.

All

We've been quiet this week. It's time to open the entire book up for discussion. What are people thinking about the book overall? Would be glad to hear your thoughts.

Here’s an interesting article with the author you can listen to: https://www.npr.org/2019/05/30/728278...

I'll start reading my library copy today...

Thank you for the link.

I'm not quite finished yet but I enjoy the scenes where Queenie interacts with her family more than the rest of the book. I give my overview of the book once I'm finished.

William wrote: "I'm about 1/4 way in. I sure hope something soon occurs to elevate it beyond the sassy Black girl, second gen immigrant, Londoner, interracial romance novel its been so far. The doctor's visit on t..."

So if I am understanding your last comment correctly, reading into what the boyfriend's uncle said to Queenie, makes you want to put the book down. It could be a bit much to say this openly and publicly and not for Tom to defend her (women like to be protected)

However, the opening could be something for men to read into. Yet as a woman, I can get the doctor visit with OB?GYN but not so much to redo the exam...they usually would've left her there on the table. Or come back another visit with another doctor's opinion.

Beverly wrote: "Bloom wrote: "Oh, I think this book is good for any age, past twenty, far past twenty. Older adults text, older adults date and they do date interracially which can lead to guys with false values. ..."

Isn't this how women are today. Accept the red flags instead of being introspective, internally accepting the obvious, and externally facing the real underlining issue--this person is showing their true self and should you accept it or let him go. I even watch dating shows lately (Reality ones) and scream or laugh at the TV because of these women putting up or accepting such behavior from male counterparts just to say they have a man!

Okay, I only read the first 3 chapters thus far at the doctor's office today and hope to read at least 6 or more chapters by the end of the week.

Enjoy your holidays!!!

Reading hardcopy and waiting for the audiobook version.

It is hard for me to enjoy a book with a protagonist for which I can find no empathy nor generate the slightest bit of sympathy for their troublesome situations. Protagonists do not have to be good people in order for a book to be a very good read. The Queenie character dates White men exclusively. This choice is not explained nor legitimized in the book although I suppose one can make the inference that because her father walked out on her and his marriage that this may be her reasoning. Queenie pines for months over the white man who did not protect her when she was attacked by his racist relatives. Queenie Is fine with being anally raped by a white man during rough sex with whom she just met. Queenie balks at letting a white man touch her hair but raises no complaint when he grabs her ass upon their first meeting and talks about his racist sexual preferences. Queenie allows herself to be seduced by a married white man in the office bathroom. All of these miscreant white men are desirable to Queenie simply because they are white. Any of these low life's are better in her eyes than the most accomplished Black man. Queenie's self hate is obvious but this is never even touched on in her counseling sessions. She even lets her so called friends walk all over her and treat her as "less than..." but she begs their forgiveness. I found nothing redeeming in this novel and wish I had not spent my valuable time reading it.

William wrote: "It is hard for me to enjoy a book with a protagonist for which I can find no empathy nor generate the slightest bit of sympathy for their troublesome situations. Protagonists do not have to be good..."

I agree with a lot of what you said. I don't think her dating non-black men exclusively (she did have a fling with her Pakistani neighbor and it was mentioned she had one with a Japanese man) would have bothered me so much if the men she did have sexual encounters with did not treat her with such disrespect. I don't think Carty-Williams did a good job with getting into Queenie's head. While she introduced some explanations, like introducing that one black male character, she just leaves it hanging without reintroducing it or doing it so late in the book that it became an afterthought. Outside of the bit with the racist grandfather, I found Tom more sympathetic and thought why it took three years to break up with her. Having said that he should have been more forthcoming than "we need to take a break," which is way too much ambiguity. What really bugged me was that for a bugged me was for a book that's in part supposed to be about dating there was almost no dating. Queenie met a guy then she has sex with him almost immediately; then despite receiving little to no pleasure from it and with the guys telling her that it is about the sex and nothing else, she has sex with him again. Virtually all the characters are stereotypes. The only parts of the book I enjoyed are Queenie's interactions with her family but even that is marred by the entire family being hyper-religious. Beyond her taste in men, she is incompetent when it comes to her job and yet she inexplicably manages to keep it. It's just hard to sympathize with her because she just come across as a character who makes bad decisions and has little self-awareness.

This book was a huge disappointment, especially after reading Patsy which dealt with similar themes -- Jamaican immigrant who underwent trauma navigating relationships -- but was a much more in depth novel which went into the characters heads and explored the reasons why they made the decisions that they made.

My library audio finally came through, and I do like the narration. I think the word that comes to my mind about Queenie is "denial". I had a hard time being interested in the last couple of chapters I read (6 & 7) and I think I may set it aside for awhile. Having the discussion to fall back on may encourage me to continue at some point.

I'll check other comments, but SO far, this book reads like a chick lit which I've learned years ago it doesn't keep me interest. listening to audio and hard copy, up to chapter 6 and may have to pass on this read. does it get better????