Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

Unbelievable dialogue, love triangles, lack of diversity, beautiful/hot/handsome characters, and main characters who do stupid things just to create drama, to name the first thoughts that came to mind.

Yeah, unbelievable dialogue is a biggy peeve of mine too. I love lotsa dialogue but if it reads wooden or feels engineered it can ruin a book. Not a fan at all of insta love or love triangles either, and I'm getting a little bored with the Smolder McBadassery heroes. Don't like when the female protagonist relies wholly on the hero saving her. OTT angst drives me mental. When there's supposed to be an element of mystery but the foreshadowing is as subtle as a brick to the face -never good. And, when characters are falling in love, I like there to be shared experiences and development rather than have them just getting all sappy, commenting on how hot they find each other and how they've decided they simply can't live without each other.

Oh, yes! 'I can't live without him' turns my stomach in books and in real life. It makes me want to smack people.
I second everything Joanne said.

Hey all, how would you go about writing a character with flaws that just sounds... Natural? As in, not writing someone who's flaw is being 'clumsy' (is that even a real flaw?) or 'foot-in-mouth disease'. I agree that some of these have made me put down books on several occasions.

How about someone who is self centered? Or someone who tries to do what's best for others but comes off as over bearing? Or a character that has very little empathy for others and feels guilty about it?

I'd say think of three young people you know, write down a secret list of their flaws, and pick from there.

RA- I am a young person (18) so I guess this should be easy for me!!

Instalust? Now that's okay. Teens are an emotionally and hormonally driven group. It's the instalove where they're swapping 'I Love You's before I'm even, like, a quarter through the book with no further development between them beyond grand gestures and declarations that really wind me up. And -like you've said -those longwinded gagoriffic speeches fulla sappy drivel, uck.

And yep, I definitely agree that the best way to work flaws naturally into a story is to show em through actions, situations and dialogue. NOT through a confessional statement by the character, heavy handedly drawing direct attention to em.

Absolutely. A crush and instalove are very different creatures.

Flawless characters and the instalove thing bugs me too. I have mixed feelings about love triangles. I think they are overused a lot, but at the same time I have a subtle one in my work so how can I throw stones?

Over the last year I have picked up several books in which the characters lack depth. This drives me crazy! Character development is so critical, readers don't care about characters they don't know. Also, I can't stand books that have the characters fall in love in five seconds.

Over the last year I have picked up several books in which the characters lack depth. This drives me crazy! Character development is so critical, readers don't care about characters they don't know. Also, I can't stand books that have the characters fall in love in five seconds.

I think we are missing humor. With ages like 12 to 16 kids need to first love to read, making it fun helps.

Urgh, yeah, characters just going through the motions as nothing more than a plot devise. Either as deep as a puddle or flitting around personality-wise depending on what the situation dictates. Definite nopey-nope.

Brittney, I have to agree on the character depth issue. Real people are not one-dimensional so characters who are come across as boring, dull, or flat. I have seen that as well and it is hard to make it through the book sometimes.

Tammy's point is linked in to characters as well. It is always about the characters. Basic plot lines are the same and have been for centuries (Think of all the different variations of Romeo and Juliet), it is the characters that make the stories different from one another (or not).

P.S. wrote: "I think we are missing humor. With ages like 12 to 16 kids need to first love to read, making it fun helps."

You have an interesting and overlooked point. Perhaps the YA has lost its humorous side and has leaned too much to the romantic angst side of things which might appeal to young women, but not young men.

I MUCH prefer humor to romance. But the humor can't be too dorky. Sometimes I think adults underestimate YAs' abilities to enjoy intelligent humor.

R.A. wrote: "I MUCH prefer humor to romance. But the humor can't be too dorky. Sometimes I think adults underestimate YAs' abilities to enjoy intelligent humor."

Me too. I grew up reading funny and intelligent sci-fi, which is what I now write. The books I remember fondly are the ones that made me smile. Well-written humour is hard to find.

There might be some hidden danger in trying humor and failing, though, especially when it happens very early in the novel.

I've read a few books that paint a protagonist trying to be quirky and humorous, and it comes off as the author painfully trying to convince us their character is those things, rather than actually achieving that goal. They're trying for an "adorkable" Anna (Frozen) character, but it comes off more like a Mary Sue Frankenstein monster.

I agree that the humor has to be done intelligently, or else you run the risk of alienating readers who don't trust you or your characters yet.

Thomas wrote: "There might be some hidden danger in trying humor and failing, though, especially when it happens very early in the novel.

I've read a few books that paint a protagonist trying to be quirky and hu..."

No one should ever have to be described as funny. Or kind, or mean, or pompous, for that matter. :)

I find that a large number of "adult" readers are hooked on YA books. Is this an indication of the reading level of our society. Is there another reason so many YA readers are adults.

I am not ridiculing this reading choice - I just don't understand it. I'm very curious to know what makes YA books attractive to adult readers.

YA doesn't mean low reading level. It generally means the content is geared toward young adults or teens, with younger characters and themes suitable for 'underage' persons. There's less chance of encountering erotica or other explicit content, which a lot of people like.

R.A. wrote: "YA doesn't mean low reading level. It generally means the content is geared toward young adults or teens, with younger characters and themes suitable for 'underage' persons..."

Obviously YA books are an easier read and a lower reading level than more sophisticated fiction targeted at adults. Just as Middle Grade is easier again and a lower reading level than YA. These categories are established to put the style and content at the appropriate reading level for the targeted audience.

I understand the reduced chance of erotica or explicit content but most novels containing erotica are very clearly categorized as such. I would think this would not be a dominate factor in adults choosing to read YA.

It doesn't really answer my question. I asked "...Is this an indication of the reading level of our society. Is there another reason so many YA readers are adults." I'm trying to find a acceptable reason for this trend besides a preference for easy reads, full of simple answers and instant gratification.

Christine wrote: "I find that a large number of "adult" readers are hooked on YA books. Is this an indication of the reading level of our society. Is there another reason so many YA readers are adults. I am not ri..."

That is an interesting question that might have a complex answer. If reading scores on standardized tests are true, then you might be looking at the reading level of many in the society. Perhaps it is the maturity level of society that is to blame.

However, it might simply be the adult reader has a fondness for that author or series. For instance, I still occasionally read YA books and I can assure you my reading level is way above the YA threshold. The series "Thirst" by Christopher Pike is an example of that. I first read it as a teenager under the "Last Vampire" title. When I heard about a new "Thirst" book, I had to read it simply because I loved the character and the story too much to let it go just because I was an "adult". There are other times that the title or blurb just seemed interesting to me.

These are only my opinions. Others can jump in with their own.

There is a fairly recent NY Times article that may interest you to read, which talks about how the writer of the article appreciates YA fiction and the concerns it portrays through the lens of maturity and understanding that comes with her age.

Another explanation could simply be that YA fiction has boomed in popularity in recent years, with many popular titles now being transformed into movies (thus grabbing the attention of even more adults), and so the market goes from 15% YA books to 35% in a short number of years*.

A more abstract reason could be that with the recent economic and political downturns (these have been recovering, but people still feel sluggish about them), it's entirely reasonable to think that adults might want a book that is easy to digest, that doesn't require a large commitment of energy to have returns of good vibes and easy answers.

And if we're avoiding reader preferences, then let me suggest one last possibility: lingering bad taste. Not a bad taste in books, but bad memories associated with the books. High school was a stressful time for a lot of now-adults, and that was precisely the time that we were force-fed The Great Gatsby and The Catcher in the Rye. Judging by the success of sites like Cliff's Notes, I'm guessing a lot of high schoolers thought trudging through these "adult literary classics" wasn't worth their time, and that memory still persists.

*Numbers are totally made-up.

Christine wrote: "I find that a large number of "adult" readers are hooked on YA books. Is this an indication of the reading level of our society. Is there another reason so many YA readers are adults.

I am not ri..."

Christine, your question is of no relevance to Tammy's original post. Perhaps should have created a new thread for it rather than hijacking this one.

To answer your question, though: No, I don't consider the popularity of YA fiction with adult (notice the absence of quotation marks there, because, seriously: Why?) readers to be of any indication of the reading level of our society. No more so than the popularity of the horror genre can be considered an indication of society's mental state.

Your comment seems to insinuate all adult fiction is sophisticated...far from the case. And that all YA is dumbed down and of lesser literary value...again, far from the case. I've read some truly outstanding YA, and some appallingly poor adult fiction. The genre and target audience of a book are of no reflection on its writing quality, complexity or worth.

Yes, YA books focus on characters in the 16-20 age bracket, and on age appropriate/ relevant content. Lower reading level, though? Often not the case. Issues covered are no less tough. And, anyway, by the time many readers reach this age bracket, their reading ability and comprehension level would rival that of a more mature reader.

I predominantly read YA because I write YA (important to understand your market and all that). But, then again, I write YA because I enjoy reading YA so much.

Teen years are a time of huge change, emotional development and fresh experiences. It's been proven (some study...I think...pretty sure) that teens feel things on a whole different crazy, volatile level what with all the raging hormones; small things can feel life or death, and love/hate are at their extremities. And yet, those things adults are likely to question and doubt, and be cynical or suspicious of, teens have retained enough youthful curiosity to be accepting and open minded about (like 'oh, so you're a vampire/ angel/ demon? awesome'). YA's give huge scope for exploration, and -from a writers perspective- all those dramatic emotions are super fun to work with and manipulate.

YA should not be dismissed off hand. It has as much to offer older readers as younger.

Joanne, this is one of my favourite replies ever. I just did an interview talking about adults reading YA, and I think you did a better job than me of explaining my thoughts!

This whole thread is great, and I'm pleased I dropped in. Things I hate in YA fiction- names that give away huge plot points (people named Caine who turn out to be the main character's brother, names that mysteriously reflect superpowers the character doesn't know they have yet) foreshadowing that is really obvious so the element of surprise disappears. Unrealistically fast development of romantic relationships. Lack of romantic exploration. How many people do you know who met their partner at 14 and stayed with them for the rest of their lives?

If you guys are interested, I'd love to give you a free copy of my recently released novella. (in exchange for review) SLAM It's a YASF where I've tried to avoid all the things you've all been talking about!

Joanne wrote: "Christine wrote: "I find that a large number of "adult" readers are hooked on YA books. Is this an indication of the reading level of our society. Is there another reason so many YA readers are adu..."

I totally agree. Certainly some YA is lower level, but I tend to avoid those. Lately I've been reading a mix of YA and adult, and haven't seen a noticeable difference in reading level. I am drawn to YA titles because they usually are cleaner than adult. Too often I'm reading an adult book and BAM, people start taking their clothes off and I end up skipping pages.
And I like what Thomas said, too. I personally get tired of long descriptions and page after page of introspection. Does this make my reading level lower? I don't think so. I was reading adult books when I was ten. It just means that I want to be entertained when I'm reading for entertainment. Most of the adult books I read also shy away from needless information, but they tend to have more. But I guess this is becoming a post about what I wish were different in adult, not YA. Sorry.
But I could add excessive swearing and sexual content to the 'what I don't like in YA' list, since it is sometimes there and I don't like it. I will drop points in my review when a YA book has too much, fair or not.

YA pet peeves?

1. Clumsy girls
2. "Bad" boys
3. Instalove
4. Spoiled brats
5. Cardboard characters

What's missing?

1. Intelligence (shown, not told)
2. NICE love interests
3. Healthy relationships
4. Ugly main characters (who don't get makeovers and become beautiful)
5. Subtlety

Lady Echo wrote: "YA pet peeves?

1. Clumsy girls
2. "Bad" boys
3. Instalove
4. Spoiled brats
5. Cardboard characters

What's missing?

1. Intelligence (shown, not told)
2. NICE love interests
3. Healthy relationshi..."

Yes! And in addition to #4 Ugly main characters, she can't just THINK she's ugly but really she's gorgeous. Also, I hate when the 'bad' characters are particularly unattractive. I've noticed that several times, even in books like Divergent.

Gail wrote: "R.A. wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Christine wrote: "I find that a large number of "adult" readers are hooked on YA books. Is this an indication of the reading level of our society. Is there another reaso..."

Are they about young adults? That tends to be an identifying factor.

RA, agreed! I'm tired of the gorgeous girl who thinks she's ugly, too! The majority of the world is not secretly pretty, and most people don't believe they are ugly. If you absolutely MUST have an insecure lead, make it specific. I once read a great book about a girl who felt her ears were too large, another where the guy was sensitive about his big nose.

Gail, about anything can be classified YA if it features teenagers as main characters. I'm not saying I agree with that, but it's what I'm seeing out there now.

There's a group on Facebook called Clean Indie Reads. You might like it.

See now, that's all I'm asking!

Lady Echo wrote: "YA pet peeves?

1. Clumsy girls
2. "Bad" boys
3. Instalove
4. Spoiled brats
5. Cardboard characters

What's missing?

1. Intelligence (shown, not told)
2. NICE love interests
3. Healthy relationshi..."

I have to agree with a lot of your peeves. There's a lot of "bad boys" main character/love interests out there that makes me cringe sometimes. I don't necessarily think it is good when the "hero" treats the heroine like crap.

R.A. wrote:Yes! And in addition to #4 Ugly main characters, she can't just THINK she's ugly but really she's gorgeous. Also, I hate when the 'bad' characters are particularly unattractive. I've noticed that several times, even in books like Divergent.

I have noticed that a lot too. Are they always described as being extremely beautiful/ gorgeous by other characters even though they think they are so ugly?

I think there is a place for that kind of side plot, but I think most of the time the deeper reasoning is lacking. I have written about a character who has a twisted way of looking at herself (not necessarily really fashion model pretty) but nice looking but sees herself as ugly due to abuse she has suffered. She has to relearn how she really is.

I also agree there is a lack of characters who really have physical deformities or are simply not attractive.

Theresa wrote: "R.A. wrote:Yes! And in addition to #4 Ugly main characters, she can't just THINK she's ugly but really she's gorgeous. Also, I hate when the 'bad' characters are particularly unattractive. I've not..."

In the case of abuse, it is different, but I think we have to be careful not to throw abuse in for a convenient plot crutch. And there I have another pet peeve, though in my experience it tends to be in romance more than YA. I did read this one YA that was completely build on an incident of sexual abuse and failed miserably... but done right, a history of abuse can be a relatable theme since so many young people (and adults) are abused in some way.

Here are my pet peeves: Unrealistic descriptions and action scenes; Dumbed-down language; Instalove; Bad role models as main characters; Unhealthy (or downright abusive) relationships; Sexual promiscuity.

Theresa and Thomas - thank you for your insights. I have read several articles and your comments agree with others in regards to my question, but also expand the field even further. I appreciate your time.

Joanne - It was not my intention to insinuate anything, to highjack this thread, or to upset you in any way. I was curious - that's all. The trend is gaining momentum and as a writer, I only wanted to understand it. I approached the avid YA readers in this thread because I felt they could give me real insights into their reading preference. My sincere apologies.

Thank you to all for your comments and insights.

Christine, threads are meant to be hijacked. I didn't mind the question. As a lover of all things YA (and a reader well past her youth) I've gotten this question before. I started reading YA to get an idea what my daughter was consuming and I enjoyed not just the wide variety of stories but the surprises. There seem to be fewer rules in genre fiction when it comes to YA. For example, YA romance is not a guaranteed happy ending for the boy and girl. Hope that helps!

R.A. wrote: In the case of abuse, it is different, but I think we have to be careful not to throw abuse in for a convenient plot crutch. And there I have another pet peeve, though in my experience it tends to be in romance more than YA. I did read this one YA that was completely build on an incident of sexual abuse and failed miserably... "

I could not agree more. If an author decides to use abuse in a storyline, it has to be done right. Having it in the story "just because" is not helpful to anyone.

Christine wrote: "Theresa and Thomas - thank you for your insights. I have read several articles and your comments agree with others in regards to my question, but also expand the field even further. I appreciate yo..."

You are welcome. I hope it gave you some insight into what you were trying to figure out. :)

Tammy wrote: “Unhealthy or downright abusive relationships” really get to me, especially when they’re written in a way to sound almost appropriate. I don’t come across them too often, but I have certainly read stories that have made me cringe because the author is supposedly writing a love story and a teenage girl is okay with being overly controlled or even flat out disrespected by her love interest... "

Tammy, you have a great point. Those types of stories get to me as well. I think it sends young people the wrong message when that type of behavior is condoned or even encouraged in books geared towards that age group.

Tammy wrote: "Dennis wrote: "Here are my pet peeves: Unrealistic descriptions and action scenes; Dumbed-down language; Instalove; Bad role models as main characters; Unhealthy (or downright abusive) relationship..."

Amen. Women have enough trouble without seeing their supposed lack of worth in their books, too.