Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy" discussion

Wizards are powerful, it’s well known. Gandalf, Voldemort, and even Darth Vader. They are a common staple of fantasy. They usually have an abundance of knowledge to go along with their power. Yet, there are never any wizard armies in fantasy? (Unless you consider Dumbledore’s Army—which I don’t really do).

Is there something about the profession that makes them strictly introverted, loners?

Or maybe they don’t like to march side-by-side. They like to spend too much time with their books, and sometimes that can lead to a dismissal of physical pursuits. They have to study long and hard, after all, to learn all of those spells. Who has time for P.T.?

Maybe, soldiers are just afraid to spend time around a one-person nuke. I would be. But they’re wizards, shouldn’t they like spending time with one another?

Or maybe if too many wizards are brought together, the mana they use to cast their spells would interfere with each other. (But I don’t think that’s true).

Could it be they take orders about as well as a barrel of wet cats?

“Private, take that hill.”

Now, the Drill Sergeant’s a frog. Ribbit!

But there must be something about their character, or wizardry in general, that precludes them from signing up for their country.

It seems like the most sensible thing to do. Think how unstoppable a wizard army would be, plus you wouldn’t have to spend all that money on swords and armor or bullets and guns. Do you see how awesome a wizard army could be?

Wizard armies would rock. They would rule. They’d leave other armies with no clue what to do.

But they don’t exist, they never have, kinda like Big Foot doing improv.

Maybe it’s just an impossible dream, to see a wizard army out in the field. But maybe, just maybe, I’ll write that story someday—but it won’t be anytime soon--I still have too much Sword and Sorcery I need to consume.

What do you think about this subject? Why are there not more wizard armies in fantasy?

*post has been edited

This reminds me of the use of Jedi magic in Star Wars. Whereas the original trilogy has minimal "wizards" making them more powerful/mysterious... it left many desiring stories with many Jedi/Sith fighting simultaneously. But after seeing the prequels that show that explicitly... I'm not sure if the desire is really met.

If all the characters are mighty/awesome, then the contrast is diminished...

S.E. wrote: "This reminds me of the use of Jedi magic in Star Wars. Whereas the original trilogy has minimal "wizards" making them more powerful/mysterious... it left many desiring stories with many Jedi/Sith fighting simultaneously. But after seeing the prequels that show that explicitly... I'm not sure if the desire is really met.

If all the characters are mighty/awesome, then the contrast is diminished..."

That's true.

But even in fantasy traditional armies, most of the soldiers are cannon fodder, with the major heroes doing most of the dynamic fighting.

I imagine in a wizard army, not all of them are going to be as powerful as Gandalf, yet they should still be effective or have the desire/need to make armies with wizards. For some reason they just don't really exist.

I know that in a lot of fantasy, wizards, or magic even, just isn't that common. That may preclude wizard armies. And yet, there are stories where magic is plentiful and frequently used by everyone--and still no wizard armies.

*eta:

One problem I have with Star Wars as an adult, that I didn't notice as a kid--is that with all the effort they put into the movies, the special effects, the magic--they never really seem to plan all of the movies out. they just kinda do it--in a second hand thinking, sloppy kind of way. "It's Star Wars--they'll love it!"

That's why you have Princess Leia making out with Luke--when later it's revealed that he's her brother.

Leia remembering what her mother was like even though she died in child birth.

And all the Jedi Mumbo Jumbo just doesn't make any kind of practical or ethical sense--especially since they are supposed to be the good guys. It's just mumbo jumbo. Fix this they should.

I've written a lot of wizards -- "thaumaturges," as Jack Vance used to call them -- and they tend to be solitary. Most are narcissists to the point of psychopathy, and even the ones who aren't consciously cruel are jealous of their knowledge and guard it closely from their peers.

I did create one who is essentially an academic, Aumbraj the Erudite, who likes to publish papers in The Journal of Hermetic Studies. But even he is a prickly loner.

You can read about him in "The Sword of Destiny," from the Gardner Dozois anthology, The Book of Swords. Here's a link to a free read: https://curiousfictions.com/stories/2...

Matthew wrote: "I've written a lot of wizards -- "thaumaturges," as Jack Vance used to call them -- and they tend to be solitary. Most are narcissists to the point of psychopathy, and even the ones who aren't consciously cruel are jealous of their knowledge and guard it closely from their peers.

I did create one who is essentially an academic, Aumbraj the Erudite, who likes to publish papers in The Journal of Hermetic Studies. But even he is a prickly loner."


Hi, Matthew,

I understand where you're coming from, but take an example like the U.S. Army, it's made up of many different kinds of people, with many different reasons for joining.

As a fellow author, do you think sometimes we may be missing out on story telling opportunities by only presenting wizards in this one particular way?

but take an example like the U.S. Army, it's made up of many different kinds of people, with many different reasons for joining.

True, but the Army makes a practice of weeding out psychopaths. They tend to get their fellow soldiers killed because they are a combination of fearlessness and impulsivity.

I spent a lot of my former life, as a freelance speechwriter, associating with people who had real power and great wealth. They all had huge self-confidence and a sense that they could do as they liked without suffering much in the way of adverse consequences. Think Donald Trump with more sophistication.

I see wizards in their mold: single-actors who decide upon a course of action then launch themselves into it. A George Patton can be useful in an army; an army of George Pattons would be a disaster.

As a fellow author, do you think sometimes we may be missing out on story telling opportunities by only presenting wizards in this one particular way?

As solitaries? Probably not so much. But there can be variance within the type. As I noted above, one of my wizards is an academic. Others have distinctly different career goals: gaining prestige, preparing themselves for translation to Paradise, thwarting rivals, composing new spells, assembling collections of powerful magical objects, and more.

There's still plenty of wizardly career opportunities outside of an army of thaumaturges.

Well, let's see
1. There aren't that many wizards.
2. A lot of wizards do a lot of things that break the law. (This is not so much a trope nowadays, but Conan the Barbarian had a lot of this)
3. The degree of dedication required to attain magical mastery precludes other interests, like patriotism.
4. Wizards prefer to associate with non-wizards whom they can lord over -- the pursuit of power attracts such souls.
5. Wizards fear that other wizards would steal their secrets.

And one we don't see much of but has a lot of potential
6. The world is rife with anti-magic.

Though in spite of all that I did have some wizards in an army. Winter's Curse. There are only two of them in an army of mundanes because the wizards have too many alternatives. Indeed, these two only were in the army because they were cut off from other choices.

Mary wrote: "Well, let's see
1. There aren't that many wizards.
2. A lot of wizards do a lot of things that break the law. (This is not so much a trope nowadays, but Conan the Barbarian had a lot of this)
3. The degree of dedication required to attain magical mastery precludes other interests, like patriotism.
4. Wizards prefer to associate with non-wizards whom they can lord over -- the pursuit of power attracts such souls.
5. Wizards fear that other wizards would steal their secrets.

And one we don't see much of but has a lot of potential
6. The world is rife with anti-magic."

Okay, and I understand all of those. Most of them are pretty much standard fantasy tropes regarding wizards. And for #3, there are plenty of people that gain mastery in a skill that takes time while in the military or before military service—like doctors, and lawyers, and engineers.

But ...

There is nothing saying that any of those must be true. It’s fantasy, you can give wizards any type of personality you wish. Why only go with intovert, loner types who want to rule the world? It’s fantasy, you can create any type of magic you want, with different types of flaws, or different branches of magic—it doesn’t have to be one single branch titled “magic”.

For instance look at how many branches of science there are.

Maybe some wizards practice offensive magic. Others specialize in defense. Some practice the healing magical arts. Some are nukes and attack from afar, some are grunts and fight close in. Some are able to make almost accurate predictios about the future. Some can control the weather and make the conditions better for a certain type of military strategy to succeed. There could be different types of schools to teach those arts or skills. And different types of military strategies to make use of them.

Of course, it has been done, sort of. The various wizards in the Harry Potter universe display a wide variety of personalities and interests, and we encounter them as a collective dedicated to raising the next generation of their kind.

But an army of wizards? I wouldn't be interested in writing milwiz fiction, but there's no reason you, or anyone else, can't do it. You might run up against what seems to be a limiting trope of milfic SF: that it's highly tech-oriented. But you could get around that by hypothesizing a lot of detailed techniques and interesting paraphernalia for your characters.

So, good luck.

The question is what it would buy you that making it SF would not. Those interested in the nitty-gritty of military tend to want the constraints to be real and not arbitrary.

An army of George Pattons would indeed be a disaster, though an army led by a George Patton would be a smashing success indeed! Just as an army of Conans or Kanes or Tarzans would be a mega-fail. And therein lies the answer to this question. Consider a US football game with 22 Bo Jacksons on the field -- seems like a dream game to catch, but it quickly would cease to be: (A) Us mere mortals will be shortly reminded of our mere mortality and lose interest, (B) the specialness of a, the, Bo Jackson will swiftly be lost in a field of doppelgangers...and we spectators will lose interest, and (C) the unsustainability of it will suddenly become as apparent as the undelivered-upon dynasty dream the Shaq-&-Kobe Lakers temporarily gifted us... and we'll lose interest because we just won't care.

It is a fun idea to consider, though I'm not certain it would be worthy the pursuit. Also, there are series with large-scale quantities of magic-weilding 'soldiers' serving in armies, from Myke Cole to Steven Erikson.

If the world was dangerous enough this might work.

Steven Erikson comes really close to your idea with his world. There is some really nasty, heavy hitting things in his world. His tales have a grim, gitty feel of the The Black Company.

I think your idea would be fun coupled the flavor of Kings of the Wyld.

C.A. wrote: "Alright, first off, this would still rock if you scale it down. Here's how: Use them as specialized units, War Wizards"


That's a workable idea. The great thing about fiction and fantasy/sf in particular is that one idea can spawn many different interpretations and execution of that idea. And they all can work and be enjoyable stories to read.

C.A. wrote: You would not have a wizard army per say. In all fairness it's seemingly too fantastic.< /I>

And there's where I disagree. It's fantasy. It's magic. It's wizards. None of them are real. None of them exist. The only limit is the imagination of the writer.

The Amra Thetys series by Michael Mcclung boasts a history of wizard armies and unrivaled magic. Although Amra only has to deal with the remnants and revenants.