Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

Inspired by Carolina's comments, what a great topic for discussion!

When do Heyer's Heroes and Heroines REALIZE that they were in love?

So, obviously, this thread is going to be filled with spoilers, so fair warning!

I will put forward for Arabella
Beaumaris is shocked by the realization that he is in love with Arabella when he grabs the back of the chair during Arabella's impassioned plea about Jemmy

That's an interesting question and the answers are often not obvious. Frequently Heyer gives the reader hints before the character is fully aware of or ready to acknowledge the love.

Probably the most straightforward heroine about her love is Venetia and the least is Sophy. In fact, one of the things I tend to object to in The Grand Sophy is that it's never clear to me that Sophy is in love with Charles (or, for that matter, why she would be).

Am I the only one who enjoys Heyer’s romances because the transition from friendship or hate or companionship to love is subtle? I feel like modern romances never allow for that. The hero and heroine nowadays have to meet in the first three pages and if they haven’t let go of their inhibitions by chapter 5 then it’s not considered a romance. I like the little hints Heyer weaves into her story about characters learning to care for each other. My favourite might be Cotillion, where all we know is that Freddy will do anything for her, and her eyes slowly open to how capable and reliable he is. That scene in the carriage when he rescues her from that improper ball!

Hi! Yes, this is something that has always plagued me when I've been reading one of Heyer's books, it's interesting that GH usually dealys the revelation until the proposal - and that isn't common in romantic novels. From the books I have read:

The Grand Sophy: It's SO obvious when Charles realizes it, that it makes Sophy's feelings all the more intriguing, but considering Sophy is more self-aware than Charles, I would say she probably realized her own feelings long before Charles... Maybe when they laughed together, after Charles shot the wall? That's when Eugenia confirms her suspicions at least. (But I would have realized what thought process took her to that epiphany, and how she felt about falling in love with a man that was engaged - it reallys feels like Sophy was so determined to separate Eugenia and Charles that she didn't doubt for a second that she would).

Bath Tangle: This is easy, I think. When Serena received the letter from Ivo announcing his betrothal, (the annoying thing here is that we don't read her thoughts, she voices her shock and then, I think she leaves the room and takes very long to come back to the room, but Fanny isn't clever enough to realize it) - and then there's the dinner scene in which Serena dresses elegantly because she knew Ivo was going to visit them and then basically plays the piano for him and stops when he leaves).

I don't remember Faro, Regency Buck and Devil's Cub with so much detail, so I couldn't say.

Abigail wrote: "...in The Grand Sophy is that it's never clear to me that Sophy is in love with Charles (or, for that matter, why she would be)."

I think Sophy fell in love with Charles because of these reasons:

1) He opposes her, instead of singing her praises and empty flattery. That's very different to the behavior she's used to from her father's friends (like Sir Vicent) or even her father. Even the guy from the jewelry got out of his way to make her happy, so Charles in that sense is different, and she enjoys arguing with him. (He's an adorable grumpy man).

2) Charles is a respectable family man: I know Sophy adores her father and her independence, but she has been a woman that has never had the warmth of a family. It's clear from the first scene that she hasn't seen her cousins and aunt in a long time. She seems quite determined to marry someone - and I can't readily believe she wants that just because Horace told her to - so part of me thinks that Sophy did want to have a family and that Charles was appealing to her because he was so different to the dandies and bandits she has met in her travels - even when for us, Charles is quite an ordinary man, but not for her.

3) Charles shows that he cares by being overbearing: Not only with his siblings, but with Sophy as well. He gets mad every time Sophy has done something without consulting him and he chases her constantly. I think Sophy likes to be chased, because nobody has done so before. She likes when he pays attention to her, something that her father hasn't always done.

And then of course, her pets adore him and he showed that he loves his family deeply and that he can be lively when he's in a good mood. So, basically, they're opposites that attract - but they're the same in the things that matter: they're intelligent, strong, independent, they like to meddle, they love deeply and they like to argue! :)

Oh, Freddy, *sigh*
Best Hero Ever!

I think Sophy becomes interested in Charles very early, but he comes to realize his feelings for her only when she nurses his little sister through her illness. (That is what you're referring to, isn't it, Carolina?) Of course, there's Eugenia to contend with, since a gentleman just doesn't break his engagement, so although Sophy is annoyed to see Eugenia show up in the crowd that descends on Lacy Manor at the climax, Eugenia's arrival and her reaction to the situation there enables Charles to be free to declare his feelings for Sophy. (What might he have done if Eugenia hadn't ended it then and there?)

Critterbee❇ wrote: "Oh, Freddy, *sigh*
Best Hero Ever!"

Absolutely! Rivaled only by Hugo!

Emilia, I'm totally with you! That's why Heyer is just about the only writer of "romance" whom I read with unalloyed pleasure.

Emilia wrote: "Am I the only one who enjoys Heyer’s romances because the transition from friendship or hate or companionship to love is subtle? I feel like modern romances never allow for that. The hero and heroi..."

I like the subtle falling in love too. I do often go back and see if I can pinpoint a moment when one or both of the characters fall in love. It's not always easy and the characters don't usually know themselves.

There's a moment in Frederica when she's entertaining and Alverstoke comes in, much to the surprise of his friends. I can't find the passage right now but there's something very subtle about the way he acts that clues the reader in. It's stated in Ch. 17 that Alverstoke is interested in Frederica in a way he's never been interested in any other woman before but he isn't quite sure WHY or how yet.

I think she falls in love earlier, when he stands up for her dog and turns the scene into a farce with the Balicustan Hound. (At least that's when I first fell in love with him!)

Frederica is a tough one - because she is so certain that she is not the type of person to fall in love, but slowly grows to care deeply for Alverstoke in spite of that.

It is enjoyable to see Alverstoke try to understand how and why he can't stop caring about Frederica and her family!

Emilia wrote: "Am I the only one who enjoys Heyer’s romances because the transition from friendship or hate or companionship to love is subtle? I feel like modern romances never allow for that. The hero and heroi..."

You are not the only one, Emilia. Heyer never hits us over the head with paragraphs of internal monologue. She lays a sly and humorous trail.

I enjoy it too, Emilia, and like that Heyer often uses slower development of deep feelings.

One time when it was not so slow was in The Toll-Gate, it is love at first sight for Jack, and their scenes alone are some of the most feeling scenes in Heyer.

And I do love that she did not write mountains of inner monologue -nothing makes me less interested than constant inner monologues accompanying every bit of dialogue! Better when the use of a single, perfectly crafted sentence paints an entire portrait of a character or situation.

Emilia wrote: "Am I the only one who enjoys Heyer’s romances because the transition from friendship or hate or companionship to love is subtle? I feel like modern romances never allow for that. The hero and heroi..."

Yes, I agree with the slow-burn. The feelings have to develop slowly and realistically to be entertaining, I hate love-at-fist-sight, which are boring in my opinion. I just miss that "Epiphany" moment in which they realize "no one else will do". But of course, I prefer any GH book to the bodice ripper novels.

And it's always fun to especulate in which scene happened! :)

Love this thread! My read on Sophy: I think she realizes when she's so upset with Charles that she actually cries - (when Charles takes her to task for driving through St. James). She acknowledges it too, some weeks after the ball - when riding with Charlbury, and he says he's afraid he's going to be called out by either Bromford or Charles and she quizzes him, if he really thinks Charles will.

Good point, Maith! I had forgotten that bit. My dislike of Charles tends to blind me to the book’s good qualities.

In general, I think a lot of the heroines realize they are in love when they realize that the hero is necessary to their comfort—a trope that pleases me inordinately because I like to think of marriage as comfort and trust, not as adventure and passion.

Abigail, I feel like we have very different tastes on our romance books :)

I agree with you that trust and comfort - to be oneself in the other's company - is very important, and it has to be something that develops between the couple for the romance to make sense, but in order for a book to entertain me, they need to have a little bit more of conflict... and that's where passion enters.

I think romance is a little bit of mystery: "How will they get together?" And that mystery is bigger if they start as enemies, or if they bicker, etc. Conflict is everything in a story, and I usually like the inner conflict in which the characters grown up influence each other to change for the better than when it's only external forces that want to separate them.

Why don't you like Charles? I still have to read a lot of Heyer's novels, but for now, he's my favorite. I found him very realistic and human.

I am amazed that there never seems to be a general opinion about GH's books, in the sense that the favorite books of one reader are the ones other readers hate, and the same with the characters. (While I feel like people agree more on other authors.)

EDIT: Maith! I haven't thought about scene, and you're very right! It's more important than it seems at first. There's a moment later in the book, in which Charles tells Sophy that if she continues in this way, she will lose "her other admirer" (although admirer wasn't the exact word) and Sophy asks him: "Who? Bromford?" I feel like in that moment she's saying: "Or are you talking about yourself?".

Variety is the spice of life, Carolina! I realize my tastes are out of the mainstream when it comes to romance. As for Charles, I find him grumpy and judgmental and he had the monumental bad taste to propose to Eugenia. Hugo Darracott from The Unknown Ajax is my favorite.

Lol, you made me laugh with “he had the bad taste to propose to Eugenia”, very true! And yes, he’s grumpy and judgmental - that’s weirdly what I like about him.

Sally wrote: "Emilia wrote: "Am I the only one who enjoys Heyer’s romances because the transition from friendship or hate or companionship to love is subtle? I feel like modern romances never allow for that. The..."

Yes! “A sly and humorous trail” - perfect! And I lap it up, delighting in every perfect, concise sentence!

Abigail wrote: "Good point, Maith! I had forgotten that bit. My dislike of Charles tends to blind me to the book’s good qualities.

In general, I think a lot of the heroines realize they are in love when they real..."

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly- we’re coming up on our 32 year anniversary, and have enjoyed plenty of passion, but it truly is the comfort and mutual trust and support in the hard times that make you feel like “no one else will do”.

Another book to discuss: These Old Shades. Yes it seems obvious - Leonie does go on about how much she adores her Monseigneur - but do we ever see when it changes from hero worship/love of a protector to something else?

I thought it *might* be the point where Fanny teases her about making a fine duchess and Leonie gets very upset about her low birth and how Avon wouldn't etc. Does anyone have other theories?

With Leonie, the contrast between how she feels about Monsigneur and how she acts with his brother show her feelings better than the text. I don't recall, off the top of my head, a specific moment though.

Maith wrote: "Love this thread! My read on Sophy: I think she realizes when she's so upset with Charles that she actually cries - (when Charles takes her to task for driving through St. James)."

Wasn't that the episode when the crying is entirely fake, simply in order to score a point off Charles? (" Sir Horace says it's my one accomplishment"?)

I think that she recovered quickly, but she was genuinely upset that Charles had discussed her with Eugenia. Being upset, she could then 'make herself' cry, but I think that if she did not want to cry, she would not have.

"I cannot continue if I don't keep sad thoughts in my mind, such as you saying unkind things to me, or..."

Igenlode wrote: "Maith wrote: "Love this thread! My read on Sophy: I think she realizes when she's so upset with Charles that she actually cries - (when Charles takes her to task for driving through St. James)."

W..."

No. The fake crying was after the ball, when she's been flirting with Charlbury for a while, and Charles walks in on Sir Vincent pinching her chin.

The drive through St.James was before the ball - remember Eugenia went into the country after that to escape the supposed notoriety, until the ball happened.

That is correct! Sorry, I was mis-remembering. Sophy was more upset after the St. James Street incident than she was when she cried on command. The insta-tears moment was in response to Charles saying that Sancia had his sympathy for not wanting to live with Sophy.

After St James Street:
"She accompanied him there, and began to drag off her driving-gloves with hands that were not quite steady. Her eyes were still sparkling, and a not unbecoming flush mantled her cheeks."

The sparkling eyes - were there tears? Or were they sparkling as if alight with fire from her rage?

Critterbee❇ wrote: "That is correct! Sorry, I was mis-remembering. Sophy was more upset after the St. James Street incident than she was when she cried on command. The insta-tears moment was in response to Charles say..."

I think in this case, it could very well be both - and Sophy is the kind of person that doesn't get upset or angry easily, it seems like nothing offends her or affects her, so it's very telling that what Charles thinks and says is so important to her.

It's interesting to compare her reaction to Charle's criticism with her reaction to Eugenia's criticism. So different!

I love the small details and *clues* that GH leaves in her books or even the small ironies, like when Sir Horace in the first scene asked his sister: "Why would Charles object to my Sophy?" -- He won't object too much, Sir Horace, or not for long! :)

Good catch - I too had confused the two incidents.
But the sparkling eyes are mentioned in the moment of her return (which is why she is still wearing her driving gloves - she has literally just walked in through the front door) and before Charles has had the chance to utter a word of criticism; her eyes are described as still sparkling, so this appears to be an unambiguous reference to her earlier rage with Eugenia.

What is more significant is that a page later she definitely dashes away a tear-drop and blows her nose, albeit explicitly saying "I am too angry to talk with any moderation" as an explanation for this.

Personally I can't see any sign that in this scene she has experienced any epiphany with regard to Charles - what really makes her angry is the fact that she blames him for criticising her to Eugenia behind her back rather than to her face (for which he backs down, and she calms down). There is a very similar scene later on after the moneylender episode, where Sophy loses her temper again ("there is no end to Miss Wraxton's solicitude") and tells him to go to the devil.

I am loving this thread and wish I'd found it earlier - I just returned The Unfinished Clue to the library and I'm asking myself when did Dinah know? She liked Harding right from the first, clearly, but then she wasn't expecting a gentleman after the local police.

Jackie wrote: "I am loving this thread and wish I'd found it earlier - I just returned The Unfinished Clue to the library and I'm asking myself when did Dinah know? She liked Harding right from the first, clearly..."

I think almost right away when he was kind. He seemed to fall in love at first sight.

QNPoohBear wrote: "Jackie wrote: "I am loving this thread and wish I'd found it earlier - I just returned The Unfinished Clue to the library and I'm asking myself when did Dinah know? She liked Harding right from the..."

I think it's because the romance was very much secondary to the mystery. There has to be a romance, but there is no time to develop it.

QNPoohBear wrote: "Emilia wrote: "Am I the only one who enjoys Heyer’s romances because the transition from friendship or hate or companionship to love is subtle? I feel like modern romances never allow for that. The..."

I am very late to this discussion - work demands pulled me away from a lot. But I have to chime in on Frederica and Alverstoke, my absolutely favorite Heyer.

That scene QNPoohBear is when he has heard about Frederica's 'at homes' and that his secretary and others are regulars, yet he has not been and is a tad disgruntled at hearing about them, especially since what's his name is fawning over Frederica at them. So off he goes and after greeting Frederica, settles in the back of the room next to the curmudgeonly man-hating aunt that no one engages with and spend the entire afternoon observing, satisfying his perception that Frederica is not attracted to anyone else and accepting that she is the woman for him. One of my favorite scenes. Frederica never allows herself to acknowedge how she feels about him although there are plenty of hints.

Sigh. I am so looking forward to reading this one again next month!

Theresa wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: "Emilia wrote: "Am I the only one who enjoys Heyer’s romances because the transition from friendship or hate or companionship to love is subtle? I feel like modern romances never ..."

I totally agree with your analysis; and I’m also looking forward to next month! Frederica is in my top 5 and I get something new out of it every time I re-read it!

This thread is amazing! I've always spent longer on GH books to try and figure out details like these. One of the ones I've thought a lot on is The Masqueraders. I believe I'm correct when I say Prudence was almost instantly attracted/in love with Anthony. But, seeing that Anthony had to first discover she was a female, I've always wondered at what portion of time after that he fell in love and decided to marry her. Because by the time she confirms his suspicions, he is all ready to marry her...