Our Shared Shelf discussion

It sounded like there was a lot of resonance with Men Explain Things to Me. It made me curious about people's experiences of mansplaining. Care to share any incidents of mansplaining that happen in your family, workplace, community, or online? Also, do you or your friends feel like you can ever do anything about it when it does happen?

I love a few things. Baseball, Star Wars, Comics & Harry Potter. All of these induce men ,in any realm, be it work, family or general society to quiz me. That tired trope of grilling me with stats,history , and the most trivial of trivia. All in the name of making me prove I actually know it & like it , and not lying about it. If you refuse to bite you're obviously one of those women who lie about interests to be interesting, and God forbid you answer. Then you are subject to a never ending test as the agenda is to get you to answer wrong. Thus proving to everyone you are not a fan on their level

I have a father who endlessly interrupts me to “explain it the right way” — even my nephew rolls his eyes. I often wonder out loud why he supported my education if he was always going to doubt everything I said... (I’m a doctoral student) but he says it’ll train me for the real world. I’m pushing 50 so I think I’m already there! I try not to let it get to me but I am more and more guarded about what I say in his presence — which is probably his end goal anyway. I nearly got whiplash from nodding my head so much when I first read Solnit’s Men Explain Things to Me. I’ve devoured her work ever since

Sarah, I'm right there with you, sports, star wars, and I will throw in cooking and tire changing as well. Eye rolling and the urge to stick my pinky in my mouth as I bashfully giggle is a bit tempting.

I felt that urge in my soul.
It's frustrating that men do not understand the absolute level that sexism is embedded in our entire society. So many find it cute, or annoying when we talk about it, or they think it entails just the realm of sexual harrassment.

Susan wrote: "I have a father who endlessly interrupts me to “explain it the right way” — even my nephew rolls his eyes. I often wonder out loud why he supported my education if he was always going to doubt ever..."

Not necessarily man-splaining but darn annoying along these lines. I was giving my dad a tour of where I work in a research lab. Every couple of minutes he would interrupt me to share a story (that I've heard before) or go on to explain what he knew of the subject matter. Fine. Dads are going to dad. We came into a robotics lab, which isn't my lab but I have given tours to guests plenty of times before so I know my way around the equipment. One of the robotics engineers was working late and was curious who I was with and came over to investigate. So I introduced him to my dad. And my dad asked him questions without interrupting; he was patient, listened intently, and thanked the guy profusely when finished. Night and day difference.

Part of me knows this is because he was being polite to the robotics lead while I assume he was attempting to bond with me during my portion of the tour or even a misguided attempt to stay relevant in my life. But it still felt like a slap to the gut. It felt like he was dismissive /decided I deserved less respect than a total stranger.

Nothing compares with the personal stories you've all shared to further my understanding. I can read Solnit's essays. I can look-up definitions (and flow charts) of mansplaining. And while that might be a good start, you are teaching me that none of those are enough for me to really get it, to understand the systemic impact.

So, thank you.

Your stories made me sad and angry. Time to add one more item to my list of male privileges I live with.

As one small facet of my learning, Sarah's post in particular helps me appreciate Looking for Leia on a whole new level:

https://vimeo.com/266320467

The Force doesn't have a gender.

May it be with all of you.

I'm so glad I said something that helped. Sexism is as systematic as any other bigotry is , and I adore discussions like these. Understanding comes through dialogue & understanding is an important step to affect change.
And I'm an all day sucker for star wars references

In that case, Sarah, I'll add that I think those yahoos who dis you at Star Wars events should be encased in carbonite and buried in the sands of Tatooine!

:)

Naive question: Is mansplaining extended to other genders as well?

I know it is mainly including (not sure whether "include" is the appropriate verb for what I am trying to mean) women but I'm just wondering whether a man also mansplain to another man or another gender?

I mean, it feels like there is "superiority" relation (just like in many patriarchal behavior) where a man feels (wrongly) superior or dominant compare to the other person.

Florian wrote: "Naive question: Is mansplaining extended to other genders as well?

I know it is mainly including (not sure whether "include" is the appropriate verb for what I am trying to mean) women but I'm jus..."

Not sure Florian. The definition I found on the web says it's typically to another woman. "the explanation of something by a man, typically to a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing."

But I think it could also apply when someone feels so gosh darn right or they believe they should speak towards a subject they know nothing about that they tend to be condescending or patronizing to someone who they deem lesser who is actually in fact a subject matter expert on the topic.

"Naive question: Is mansplaining extended to other genders as well?

I know it is mainly including (not sure whether "include" is the appropriate verb for what I am trying to mean) women but I'm just wondering whether a man also mansplain to another man or another gender?

I mean, it feels like there is "superiority" relation (just like in many patriarchal behavior) where a man feels (wrongly) superior or dominant compare to the other person. "

Sexism can be applied to any gender.

Problems can arise however if someone with an opinion, advice, or knowledge is all of a sudden confused with attempting mansplaining someone else.

mainsplaining & sexism can happen to any person. That being said the stratification of fundamental sexism dug into every aspect of our culture is done against women.
It's the same as racism, like someone can dislike a white person because they are white & create an act against them. But racism is not solely hatred of another race, it's about power. The power the majority has against the minority and its evident in every institution & many societal norms.
Mansplaining became a term used to express that sexism in our society in terms of communication. Men (and I say this broadly not specifically) in a conversation men are given more respect than women. Men are taken at face value to know what they are talking about while women have to prove it. Despite how much they talk or how they talk men are not considered a chatterbox, drama queen, talking to much, ect...
If any of that helps

That does a lot Sarah! Thank you.

I think it should be noted that because society is changing, our language is changing. To that extent, the fact that mansplaining is a word and is receiving greater and greater awareness, pushbck, etc, is because women are no longer abiding by it.

The item has been named and therefore it's being called out.

This word, these stories exist because our culture is changing.

...it's about power.... Men are taken at face value to know what they are talking about while women have to prove it. Despite how much they talk or how they talk men are not considered a chatterbox, drama queen, talking to much ...."

Beautifully said, Sarah.

Thanks. I'm actually working on something about sexism, so this convo is helping me get that done .

For me, often when I'm discussing something I'm really nerdy about, whether it's Harry Potter or politics, with a guy, they quickly cut me off to exert their better knowledge. It's exhausting.

I’m with you all. I have a guy friend who likes movies almost as much as I do but every time we talk about them he takes over the whole conversation and starts quizzing me. He’s constantly trying to test my knowledge and see if I’m a legitimate fan of the same thing he is, then if I get something wrong he gives me crap for it. The truth is you don’t have to remember every detail of something to be a fan and love it. He also wants to be a writer like me but when we talk about our (separate) projects he always puts me down by saying how I should join him in his work. It’s like he’s telling me I can’t do it by myself and in order to succeed I have to work with him. It’s incredibly irritating especially when the only movies he’s ever really watched is Batman and Harry Potter and I’ve seen not only them but an incredible amount of other things. Not to say anything negative about either of those movie series though!

To suggest that you remove the gendered aspect of the discussion of “mansplaining” indicates that you missed the point of the book. By saying that this phenomenon can happen to anyone, you erase women’s experiences of the systemic power structures that allow this to happen. Yes, women can talk out of their asses and assume an unearned position of authority on some subject in a conversation with a man, but it’s due to the specific power structure of patriarchy that grants men this ASSUMED authority over women that they are experts without grounds. It’s like claims of “reverse racism”—yes, Black people can be prejudiced against white people, but no it doesn’t function as racism because it is not harmful and based in institutional oppression of caucasians. Men get raped too, but men don’t live their lives in fear of getting raped.

Annie wrote: "Men get raped too, but men don’t live their lives in fear of getting raped."

Well said, Annie. Powerful. Thank you.

@Annie: to make it clear, I asked the question while assuming the answer. I wanted to make sure of what I thought and if I asked myself such point I believe other people were wondering the same thing.

I don't think that because something can happen to anyone it erases anything, it's an acknowledgement. Actually, it helps others (who might not belong to the oppressed group one talks about) to realize that yes they are oppressed as well, it makes things (in my opinion) inclusive rather than exclusive. I'm probably quite idealistic ^^ but it's important to go beyond differences and to ally to each other.

Yes "mansplaining" is targeting women, yes "mansplaining" is a filthy game of power/domination used by men, and yes such domination happens to many other "group" (I don't like the word group because it categorize people so I use "" :) ).

I probably missed some points in the book but I feel a little bit offended to be (indirectly) told "you missed the point of the book.". I'm sure there was no mean to offend anyone, so everything is fine. Funny how the wording may be interpreted, hurt and so on while we mean something so different. The beauty of communication right?! That's what makes asking question to make sure of the other's point so essential. Even knowing how hard it is, I fail so often in that attempt :)

Florian wrote: "@Annie: to make it clear, I asked the question while assuming the answer. I wanted to make sure of what I thought and if I asked myself such point I believe other people were wondering the same thi..."

Agreed.

Its pretty dismissive and insulting that anyone would think that those things dont matter to other races, genders, etc.

I have been subjected to mansplaining so many times, if I were to get a dollar for every time it happens safe to say I would be a millionaire. Numerous times it has led me to believe there is a sticky note on my forehead that says "idiot" or "try me". My major in college was biology, safe to say I took some heavy classes related to the subject. Not only that I had the opportunity to shadow a doctor who worked in a lab staining cells and viewing under microscope. For some reason my microbio lab partner would always spend majority of his time lecturing me about the art of staining trying to quiz me to see if I know what I am talking about. It bothered me. IF I took a minute or two to think of my response he would talk over and to me as if I am an idiot. Sir, I hate to break it to you but we are at the same level. That is just one example. It is very insulting and if I were a more insecure woman I would be questioning myself and that would have chipped away at my confidence.

I am a sociology major, specialized in civil society. SOOO many times my guy friends started explaining how society works to me. Most striking was one day when a nuclear engineer and a law student, on separate occasions started explaining to me, that voters decision is influenced by many factors, including a person's family background. Whenever I experience something like this, I just point out that they are, in fact, mansplaining me. But only when I can actually do that. When professors start to explain basic statistics to me, I just smile and nod because I don't want to be disrespectful, though I wonder if my guy colleagues also get this recap of basic stats on thesis consultations.

When I was a student in DC, mansplaining was a constant part of my experience. I was working at MIT as a research intern at the time, and I would find that guys in my class - who had no background in my field - would try to explain my research back to me! It was absolutely infuriating. After a while, I would just check out of the converstaion and play dumb. It was pretty disheartening. I have no idea how to counteract this without seeming defensive or insecure.

benevolent wrote: "I have been subjected to mansplaining so many times, if I were to get a dollar for every time it happens safe to say I would be a millionaire. Numerous times it has led me to believe there is a sti..."
Benevolent,

I studied political science in school and I had the exact same experience! It's particularly frustrating when you study something EVERYONE and their mother has an opinion about. It makes it almost impossible to be taken seriously as an authority on the matter.

Susan wrote: "I have a father who endlessly interrupts me to “explain it the right way” — even my nephew rolls his eyes. I often wonder out loud why he supported my education if he was always going to doubt ever..."

I am in the same situation! His reasoning is always "I have just been around longer therefore I know best" - in my household, it is particularly when anything political gets brought up, I studied politics in school and I feel like it is his life missions to challenge my every thought!

my father and two brothers like to do that. They think they are always right even when they are wrong. Now I'm not saying they are wrong just to say it. Even when I say okay, search it on google, then" they will never submit. it's so frustrating and they always want to explain to me their way. My dad even gets mad and my youngest brother will deny it even when evidence is presented to him. Which then leads me to believe that he (youngest brother) does this for the sake of not wanting to lose to a girl.

Given all the stories everyone has shared, I'm left wondering: where do we go from here? For example, I'm curious what each of you think would happen if you printed out this entire thread and asked any of these men in your life to read it. Do you think any of them would be able to take it in, or would they just be dismissive? Or I wonder what would happen if every college professor in traditionally male-dominated departments handed this thread out in the first class of each semester? What can we do to make things better?

We can talk about it around us. And most of you probably do that already. At our level influencing 2 persons is already tremendous! 😉
It takes time, and sometime we don't see change while it actually has changed.
We all need small victories, that's what a woman working at Greenpeace told us (about a different subject) last January. And she was right!

I am just trying to point out that mansplaining is happening when it is happening. Not always using the word though, sometimes just being like: you know, I majored in this, you've read an newspaper article... Sometimes it works, sometimes I'm seen as unreasonably defensive. 🤷 We all have to try.

I love the thought Peter.

And I think it's a complicated concept.

1) if it's a one time thing: then us printing this off and sharing it with people after the fact is a bit off putting and probably unlikely.

2) if it's a regular occasion (i.e. with family, friends, or people you see regularly) the instances above are probably not the sole times they have occured.

In my own case... I know I have had many conversations with my dad as well as using my mom and brother to speak as mediators or go betweens.. That instance in my story was actually something of a peace offering between him and me. I went into it knowing that it was going to be like chewing glass, but I did it anyways because our relationship was never going to change unless we both tore our down our walls and try to see each other in a new light.

I may have gotten frustrated at his behavior. But at the end of it he also saw me as a professional and not just his wittle girl. We're not quite "healed", but our relationship is a touch stronger now than what it was prior to that event.

I appreciated everyone adding their insights about the different variables in these kind of situations and how to respond or not. It reminded me of a small handout someone showed me recently, "Toolkit for Responding to Verbal Harassment". It was designed by medical doctors to deal with harassing patients, but I feel like the principles it offers could be applied to many contexts. I also appreciated the second page which gives advice on being a supportive bystander:

http://webeye.ophth.uiowa.edu/eyeforu...

I am pretty sure that the phenomenon exists and is very noticeable.
But some of your examples are not part of it, I am a psychology major and a man and I get continuously lectured both by men and women about how the human mind work, no matter how much I try to explain that there are studies actually negating what they are saying. They are pretty sure and not open to discussion.

It is just that people are intuitive psychologists, sociologists, politics experts... they are emotionally invested in what they say and do not want to change their minds.

That's why facts are needed. Data and information don't lie when used properly. However, they might not consider emotional impact and might be perceived as cold logic. As a result a mix of data and feeling is needed.

Hello all!!

I think it's a fairly common phenomenon. Even if many men don't realize, it's socially accepted. In my family I have not suffered such a thing but in my university I have.

In fact, my best friend read several extracts from this book and said: "I'm sorry if I ever did something like that to you".

The question is also whether, in doing so, they become aware this and rectify it.

I'm sorry if my English isn't very good, it's not my mother tongue.
I did my best :)

Well said Mara.

I found this thread fascinating. I am a professional statistician, now retired and teaching statistics to college students. I read voraciously and am a member of Mensa. Not bragging, you are all intelligent, but setting up my scenario. My husband is very adept at active listening and also explaining without being condescending, with anyone except me. He claims to love my intellect, but he listens to me and speaks with me in a way he uses with no one else. It is infuriating. He looks impatient, he "doesn't know what I'm talking about", he says I need to stop him from what he is doing and let him "switch gears" before talking to him about even something trivial. But he can switch gears in a second and understand conversations at work or when talking with anyone else. My sister notices this as well. My husband doesn't get it at all when I describe it. Is this a sort of version of mansplaining? He just can't grasp what I'm saying, like I'm speaking Martian. I am relatively articulate. So frustrated...

Florian wrote: "Naive question: Is mansplaining extended to other genders as well?

I know it is mainly including (not sure whether "include" is the appropriate verb for what I am trying to mean) women but I'm jus..."

Mansplaining can definitely extend to other genders that are not cisgender men. For example, mansplaining is most commonly used against cisgender and transgender women, as well as femme-aligned nonbinary folx. However, it is also used against transgender men who are perceived as being "feminine" or not "real men". However, transgender men can also be 'guilty' of mansplaining towards femme-aligned folx.

The essence of mansplaining is based on a perceived intellectual 'weakness' that someone who passes as 'feminine' has, specifically when compared to cisgender men. The root cause of it tends to be insecurity, as in a man feeling as though he is the "fake fan" if he can't prove he knows more about Zelda than a female fan, stemming from sexism and the perception of femininity as being 'weak', therefore possessing him to instead assure himself that she is, in fact, the one who is a "fake fan". (Fandoms - especially those of video games and other nerdy pastimes - are rife with this, thus my example. How on earth something about which people are passionate, that should be a uniting force for goodness and community, became a battleground is beyond me.)

For something to qualify as mansplaining, the target has to be perceived to be feminine, whether correctly or not. Therefore, when women have their intellect and experience diminished and questioned by cisgender men, usually self-proclaimed "experts" in many fields, it is mansplaining. When men and women argue with well-educated experts about things they care about but don't necessarily know much about, that is bad but it is a separate issue. That doesn't stem from sexism, while mansplaining explicitly does.

Wait, I'm a bit lost. Let me bring my thoughts together :)
If I'm getting it right, mansplaining is about gender not sex, correct? Or does it apply for both sex and gender?

Of course, it's "only" cemantic but I just want to make sure to understand the whole idea. I mean, I tend to often hear "women" when it should be "females", you know some kind of conflation.