Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

I just read the word themself in a new book. Is that a real word? Both plural and singular at the same time?! (My browser underlines it as mispelled). Any other examples?

It seems it is a word. I have to say that I don't like it, but what does that matter? It is used when there is ambiguity about a gender, or the gender of the reference is to be obscured.

For instance, if a person born male does not identify as male anymore, to be proper to him, you would use a sentence like this: Bob, the new engineer in our department, introduced themself to us.

It DOES sound like tortured English, but such are our times. There is an argument that as far back as Shakespeare, "they" has been used for a singular pronoun. I have not really researched that usage, as I don't care all that much. lol.

In other news, Goodreads marked it as a misspelling, too! HAHAHAHA.

Surely it should be 'themselves' as in 'Let them help themselves'.

Bernie wrote: "Surely it should be 'themselves' as in 'Let them help themselves'."

One would certainly think!

We have "himself" and "herself" so "themself" is a natural extension. However, when referring to someone who is non-binary, that person may choose to be singular or plural. Hence, "themself" applies to a singular non-binary individual, whereas "theirself" would be appropriate for a multiple non-binary person.

Jim wrote: "We have "himself" and "herself" so "themself" is a natural extension. However, when referring to someone who is non-binary, that person may choose to be singular or plural. Hence, "themself" applie..."

I feel like we are getting into the weeds of grammar here. Isn't their a plural possessive? How would the non binary multiple person not be themselves?

In other news, this IS one of the stranger grammatical discussions I have had! lol.

Bernie wrote: "Surely it should be 'themselves' as in 'Let them help themselves'."

Nope. The author specifically meant the singular.
And don't call me Shirley (-Leslie Nielsen, 1980)

Edward wrote: "In other news, this IS one of the stranger grammatical discussions I have had! lol."

I wish I has seen this earlier. I would have given it a starring role in the language chapter in my book The Straight Dope which came out two months ago.

David wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Surely it should be 'themselves' as in 'Let them help themselves'."

Nope. The author specifically meant the singular.
And don't call me Shirley (-Leslie Nielsen, 1980)"

lmao. LOOOOVE the Airplane reference.

Mary wrote: "I also looked up the use of the word "themself". Apparently, it has been used in the past and has re-emerged as an accepted word to delineate a neutral gender. Although my browser also accepted the..."

Interesting. I will actually give that some thought, as "one's self" seems like a literal construct that lead to the word oneself.

I am going to give myselves time to think about this.......... or maybe not. lmao.

I do agree with you, though, Mary. Themself is odd enough to a large enough sample of english readers that it should not be used in a formal composition. Then your composition becomes about the word "themself", rather than what you were actually writing about.

My proof of this is this entire thread. I have NO idea what the subject matter the author was writing about, but we have had an exhaustive discussion about grammatical best practices around a word they used.

I think that unless your composition is ABOUT word usage, this is a fail for an author.

Edward wrote: "My proof of this is this entire thread. I have NO idea what the subject matter the author was writing about, but we have had an exhaustive discussion about grammatical best practices around a word they used.
"
The book is called The Science of Storytelling by Will Storr, who teaches fiction and screenwriting in England. March 2020 release. I'm near the end now, and the dreaded themself has not made a second appearance.

David wrote: "Edward wrote: "My proof of this is this entire thread. I have NO idea what the subject matter the author was writing about, but we have had an exhaustive discussion about grammatical best practices..."

Thanks. So, if you are a beta reader, or proofreader, will you bring using the word "Themself" in his composition?

I will point it out in my review, yes. Because it stopped me reading. I forgot what I was reading about, and posted it to this forum. If that's not an undesirable consequence, I don't know what is.

I would have to say it was a bad choice of word.

Hi all, great discussion about how language is responding to the changing ideas about gender in society. Yes, "themself" does sound awkward to our ears because it is so new, and moreover it has a political origin. It didn't come about to flow off the tongue but because "they" is now a gender-neutral singular pronoun. For this reason it doesn't make sense to use "one's self," while perhaps more grammatically correct by current standards. This is because people who identify as gender nonbinary ask others to refer to them sometimes as "they," not "one." So instead of "he or she reads a book," it's "they read a book," and definitely not "one reads a book," even though it's just one person. It is confusing at first. I work in a high school where a significant minority of students are gender-nonconforming in a number of ways and I make mistakes all the time, calling a "they" he or she or a him a her, or what have you.

I really like "one" as a nonbinary pronoun. It makes a lot more sense than "they," but the culture has not picked that up, and so we are stuck with "themself." As new ideas about gender become more commonplace and integrated into our language, we'll get used to it. Or language influencers can start a "one" campaign! #onenotthey! [Edit: I changed my mind about "one" as a gender-neutral pronoun. "One says..." "Tell one to do it..." Just no. And it doesn't inflect as an object.] Whatever the collective conscious decides will become the norm, and in the future it probably won't disturb your reading one bit.

Because "them" is a plural pronoun, the word would be "themselves". Similarly, "you" may be a singular or plural pronoun - for the singular, you would use "yourself", for the plural, you would use "yourselves."

While certain pronouns are gender neutral - that is, they don't specify gender, as do "he" or "she", the rules for singular vs plural still apply. Of course, when writing dialogue, if your character uses colloquialisms, poor grammar or regional speech, you use of words reflect the character's speech.

And "themself" is not new, it dates to the 14th century, and evolved as our language and grammar became more sophisticated.

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!

I wouldn't consider that (themself) more sophisticated but that's just me.