Golden Age of Hollywood Book Club discussion

Something you noticed in a classic movie and you'd like to know more about how it's done? Can't recall a song title or lyric? Can't figure out where you saw that actor before?

Satisfy your curiousity by asking it here!

I suppose it's because movies are bigger and more complicated to make nowadays that the film credits seem to go on forever while during the Golden Age they were short and to the point. But why did the credits stop coming at the beginning and now come mainly at the end?

There's a definite insider-story behind the shift --I can't recall it at the moment but it makes interesting history, as to why they changed.

The 'old way', sure harkened back to the formal stage to have actors and their characters listed first, as in a theater program.

I know Woody Allen insists on a simple, clean, standardized credits style for all of his films. White serif letters on a black background.

Coppola broke the mold in several ways, with the unusual credits for 'Apocalypse Now'.

Hmmm...was it because in the studio era, the roll-call style was part of the stars' contracts? Sure, all the subcontractors are moved to the end-credits now, but in the immediate post-studio years they weren't significantly lengthier than they had been just a few years before.

I need to think more on this.

I'm suspecting it may have been because once films began being made by completely autonomous prodcos after the system ended (and from then on, studios only provided funding and distribution), 'stubborn' directors like Arthur Penn or Sam Peckinpaugh said 'hey, why do we still gotta do it this way? we can do whatever the heck we want, thank you very much'

But I need to confirm my theory somewhere.

I work for IATSE and I'm guessing that the union has something to do with it. In earlier times i doubt that every grip and rigger expected to see their name on the screen.

Drinking and smoking used to be a big part of Golden Age movies. While smoking has lessened somewhat because of health concerns, drinking seems to be going strong. When they were making movies like 'Thin Man' what did they use to simulate alcohol--tea or something of a similar color?

As for smoking, did all the actors smoke as much as they seemed to? You even used to see actors advertise for cigarette brands. Perhaps that's one area where we have improved over the classic movies.

Weird fact: Most of L.A. and surrounding suburbs have extreme bans on smoking tobacco. Most of Mad Men is set in NYC but filmed on Hollywood sound stages. Their solution was to smoke herbals. American Spirit must have made a fortune. Only company i know that makes herbals that look like regular filtered cigarettes.

I'm not a fan of the all the artificial restrictions and modifications to movies for the sake of altering public behavior.

Yes, I am concerned with the hideous power of visual suggestion and I think reckless advertising is a serious menace. But I don't think cinema should be responsible for correcting destructive commercialism. The result is a schizoid world where movie characters inhabit one reality which is not the same one we dwell in ourselves. Thus, the whole medium loses all credibility to persuade anyone what is right or what is wrong.

The problem of harmful advertising seems to me, needing of a fix elsewhere; ideally at the source.

I don't think the no smoking on sets rule is so much about influence, though that may enter it. But i don't think ordinary people in Hollywood are allowed to walk down a sidewalk in public smoking a cigarette. You can probably vape. Or smoke a joint.

Bizarre.

I would think the health of highly-paid actors would have a lot to do with it. Does the movie scene actually need smoking? Until recently, actors just smoked because that was the thing to do in movies since so many people did smoke, many courtesy of the U.S. government during WWII. Now that the realism of less smoking nationwide is a fact, I see nothing wrong with reflecting that in a movie. In other words, what was once taken for granted is now thought about before indulging in.

You can smoke without actually inhaling if necessary. Movie shoots yes, use iced tea for bourbon, etc. The problem wouldnt be so bad if there was only one take. But with multiple takes something needs to be swapped in.

I'm losing track of people's points here. Are you all using full sentences to express your thoughts? Minimal pronouns please. Anyway to answer the first question posed, yes sure --smoking was widespread all over the USA, since the 1800s, found in every walk of life including actors. It took over twenty years of frenetic lobbying to change the public opinion which Big Tobacco had carefully instilled in people. The corporations fought like wildcats against it.

Did people smoke mostly because 'it was the thing to do'? I don't know if peer pressure was the primary reason. For soldiers it was more stress relief; a way to kill time. Socializing. Comfort, relaxation.

I agreed it would seem okay to portray it again in narratives now that the country has wisened up to the fact of its hideously addicting aspects. But the censors never like to give up ground once they gain it...

Just edited my post. Somehow I left out "in Hollywood." You can still even smoke in bars and clubs in Atlanta. My point should make more sense now.

It sure does. My goodness. Referential opacity, like to make me lose my marbles :^0

Anyway I had no idea California was so odd. I've heard rumors ...but I never trust what people in New Yawk spew out of the sides of their mouths, about anywhere else in the rest of the country which is supposedly out-of-whack. There's a special hatred in the East for anything that goes on in Cali; but I don't trust it

Regardless of our opinion of smoking in the movies, old films were often given a certain panache by smoking.....Rick's bar in Casablanca, the The Thin Man series, etc. And who could smoke with such drama as Bette Davis?

Feliks wrote: "Anyway I had no idea California was so odd. I've heard rumors ...but I never trust what people in New Yawk spew out of the sides of their mouths, about anywhere else in the rest of the country whic..."

I would imagine that thoughts about the South would be similarly skewed, though they are probably based on certain truths. There has been a back and forth about getting rid of Confederate monuments in Athens for years.

There used to be "Gone With the Wind" nights where the frat boys dressed in Confederate uniforms and the girls dressed like Scarlett and her pals. They nipped that in the bud.

I'm not in favor of 'erasing evidence' of the War between the States. I'm not keen on 'revisionist' history anywhere. :(

I can't imagine a war movie without cigarettes. Soldiers, conceivably can be killed at any moment of the day or night --I sure don't blame them for acquiring the habit.

Stan Freberg was the voice of 'Pete Puma'. Daws Butler voiced Snaggletooth, Yogi, Huckleberry, and QuickDraw.

Not many people realize it but Mel Blanc did not voice Elmer Fudd, that was radio actor Arthur Q. Bryan.

Droopy Dawg was voiced by Bill Thompson.

But I am sure there is one other talent I am missing cognition of; someone with a similarly 'hang dog' trough to his intonation. Who was it?

p.s. does anyone else remember Foster Brooks? How about Mort Sahl? Wasn't there some other down at heels 'schlep' comedian who's gag was his droopy, long face?

Foster Brooks.....always drunk was his schtick. Mort Sahl....not funny IMO. I don't know who the guy with the droopy face was. Then there was Professor Irwin Corey.

Droopy face, droppy voice, droopy clothes. In general an 'Eyeore' type of style and presentation. Used to appear on Johnny Carson's 'Tonight Show'.

Wish I could get his name somehow.

p.s. I learned recently that Johnny Carson served in WWII

That is going to drive me crazy (not far to go) since I just can't think who the droopy guy was either.

Misery loves company. More clues: thick, wavy salt/pepper hair, and a horse face.

All his jokes were about how life mistreats him, bad things happen to him, walks around under a black cloud.

p.s. Ha! That's a wonderful bit from ' Murder by Death'.

Truman Capote (speaking from behind stuffed moosehead on wall: "Darnit! Use proper pronouns! That drives me crazy!"

Peter Falk as Sam Diamond: "Short drive, huh?"

One thing I've always found of interest is the meals prepared in movies. Obviously, there are specialists who prepare the food or facsimles, but generally the actors only seem to take a mouthful or two. The one movie that really poured it on was the famous scene in 'Tom Jones'. The food in 'Babette's Feast' looked good too. I have often wondered what happened to all the leftovers. Do the 'workers' eat it or what?

There's a sub-department for 'food which is filmed', I can't recall but it might come under "Scenics". In the chain of signals which precede a shot, someone will shout for scenics and a Set Decorator (and their PAs) will scurry up with food although its as faked as possible because plates can sit long minutes at a time getting cold during innumerable re-takes. It's probably very tricky; unlike say, the greenskeeper who handles 'naturals' or 'foliage' or whatever its called. I can't keep track of all the lingo anymore; Spencer will know all this better than I do.

Food for crew is --just as rumor has it -- typically very good; there's catered meals of very high quality (to keep the natives from getting restless) but also 'crafties' (craft services trucks) for nonstop snacking and of course, nonstop coffee. There's also a plethora of "in a pinch" meals served because a shoot has dragged on too long. A director can coax more early-morning hours from staff if he 'kindly' gives them a breakfast burrito and more late-night hours from his staff if he arranges for a cheap 'surprise pizza delivery'.

In short, I would say nope--crew has no reason to eat cold, stale leftovers prop food from a prop table where actors and other staff have exhaled and sneezed all over it; or where sawdust and insulation has trickled down into it.

That's now, but I wonder if that was always so. Still, sounds ike a lot of waste goes on. I've seen tables set up with food for shoots in NYC so I know they don't skimp.

Well...are you asking if food was wasted in the studio era? Those departments (art, set, props, grips, gaffers) all ran like well-oiled tractors. I'm not sure where to do any confirming of this but they all kept costs down.

Economy is still strict today but not in the same way. Modern costs stack up differently. For location shoots, I believe the highest line-items are transportation and local labor and so what gets cut first is just the number of location hours. Of course in a sense that was always the way of it; length of shoot is what execs always worry over.

Again, Spencer will have to chime in, I'm not up on this stuff anymore.

I bet I could only find evidence for how food 'used to be' handled ...maybe in the memoirs of Van Nest Polgase or someone like that.

Still my point is still in the air: what kind of food exactly, can stand being set out on a table for hours and hours and still be appetizing? Who would eat stale food like that?

Food is a bugaboo for continuity. Keep you eyes open and you will see that in a scene people will be eating and their plate is almost empty and in the next shot it is almost full......or vice-versa. Cigarettes are another continuity stumbling block.......half smoked become whole cigarettes and then become half smoked again. I love looking for little things like that.

Too true.

In general, (as was said in all posts above) directors and editors usually keep food out of a shot. It's too problematic.

In his films, Coppola made a specific point of shooting real, luxurious meals. He wasn't the first but he really went out of his way to correct the trend.

Feliks wrote: "Well...are you asking if food was wasted in the studio era? Those departments (art, set, props, grips, gaffers) all ran like well-oiled tractors. I'm not sure where to do any confirming of this but..."

Ha. Haven't been an extra in more than 20 years! And there wasn't any fake meals on Andersonville! Can't tell ya!

Ah I mistook what you stated earlier, then. Ulp. Oh well.

Oh! I might still have my 'production slang' dictionary by Dave Knox. Instrumental as a ref for current and former crew terms. I just got a little sick of looking at it and stashed it away.

Still a stagehand, but just stage stuff. Occasional stuff for ESPN, but not much in front of cameras. I would have to move to Atlanta for that.

What's the exact quote from Jean Cocteau's "La Belle et le Bête" about how a beast's paws will smoke if ...?

I've seen that film a couple of times but that doesn't ring a bell. But I will say this...........Le Bête was a beautiful creation. When he turned into Jean Marias, it was disappointing.

Still hoping someone will recall it for me. Its part of the opening preamble. "If one of God's forest animals kills other than for food, his claws will emit smoke ..." something like that.

The one I found comes from the opening lines: "...They believe that the hands of a human beast will smoke when he slays a victim, and that this will cause the beast shame when a young maiden takes up residence in his home...." Hope that helps.

Good call, Betsy. I just couldn't remember that at all. I will forever be in love with the Bête which I think is one of the most beautiful animal transformations in film.

Indeed, thanks. The phrase seems a little awkward though, reading the original. Cocteau is a deft storyteller though.

p.s. I used to furnish my apartments in the style of that movie. No candelabra, but I had 'hands' which served as coatracks and hatracks, etc.

Spooky, Feliks!!!!!

anyone a fan of " Five Million Years to Earth "?

James Robertson Justice, Barbara Shelly and James Donald?
my kind of SF

Is that the one where they uncover a space ship in the Underground and there are things that look like locusts involved?

Yes! 'Hoborn' Station on the tube, I seem to recall. Stemming --the author fantasizes --from ancient medieval use of the name 'Old Hob' to refer to the devil. The subway location was where 'Old Hob' was 'born'. But the mental 'devil' (aka 'evil') really came from this buried alien visitor. Clever premise. I like SF which reminds us that we never know as much as we think we know. Such conceit is a mania lately...

Love that movie. James Donald is a favorite of mine in that as well as 'Great Escape' and 'Bridge on the River Kwai.'

It's nifty. For once, James Donald gets to be the hero.