The Mystery, Crime, and Thriller Group discussion

I am hoping someone would like to join me as I read Celia Fremlin's The Hours Before Dawn. It didn't win the poll last month but I think it should be a good read. I will probably start around the 10th of February which gives anyone interested plenty of time to find a copy.

Here's the blurb:

Edgar Award Winner for Best Novel

One of CrimeRead's 10 Best Reissued Mysteries of 2018

In this Edgar Award–winning thriller, a young housewife with two lively daughters and an endlessly crying baby battles domestic chaos as well as growing suspicions of the household's new lodger. Are Louise's fears the product of sleep deprivation, as her unsympathetic husband suggests, or is there really something sinister about the respectable-seeming schoolmistress?
During the hours before dawn, Louise suspects, people with a precarious grip on sanity are likeliest to slip over the edge into madness — especially if there's someone ready to give them a push. Without spilling a drop of blood, this psychological thriller transforms everyday events and settings into the extraordinary, evoking an atmosphere of sheer terror. Crime novelist Andrew Taylor hailed author Celia Fremlin as "Britain's equivalent to Patricia Highsmith … her novels are domestic, subtle, penetrating — and quite horribly chilling."

I'm all set and looking forward to start reading.

Tone wrote: "I'm all set and looking forward to start reading."

Excellent. Now I have to look for my copy, which for some reason isn't where it belongs. Story of my life.

Story of my life too, I'm afraid. Luckily, this one's on my kindle.

I've already had a copy Nancy I. Will try try and join in at some point but I have an unpredictable schedule so can't promise when I will be able to read a specific book.

Thanks for the recommendation Goodreads !

" Because you are reading The Hours Before Dawn
We recommend :

Five Go Off in a Caravan"

I really hope these books are not similar !

My goodness! I've gotten some strange recommendations from Goodread myself, but this one takes the prize.

MissLemon wrote: "Thanks for the recommendation Goodreads !

" Because you are reading The Hours Before Dawn
We recommend :

[book:Five Go Off in a Caravan|74..."

No way are they similar! I read those books with my daughter when she was younger. Trust me on this one.

MissLemon wrote: "I've already had a copy Nancy I. Will try try and join in at some point but I have an unpredictable schedule so can't promise when I will be able to read a specific book."

Terrific. I'll look forward to you chiming in!

If you're reading this now, feel free to start with some observations. My copy is well and truly lost, so I have another one arriving tomorrow. It will likely be tomorrow night before I can start reading it, so don't wait for me.

I know what will happen: I'll get my new copy, and then I'll find the old one. That's how I roll.

OK, I'll start. I've read the first few chapters and I'm already intrigued by this book. It's very well written.
The story is told from the point of view of a sleep-deprived and over-worked suburban housewife named Louise. She is saddled with a crying baby, a selfish husband, neighbours who either exploit or bully her plus a new lodger that she feels uneasy about. Obviously, readers are supposed to feel sympathy for poor Louise, and I do, but nonetheless can't help wondering if she is as innocent as she presents herself. She has a good mind and makes clever observations, but keeps them to herself. What do you make of her?

I've read through the first 4 chapters, but so far I'm not getting any bad vibes from Louise. I don't particularly care for Mark though. At least so far.

You know, nothing's really happened here yet, but I was sucked into the story right away due to Fremlin's writing. She makes things seem so real from the start.

Well, maybe I'm a bit suspicious of Louise because I've been reading several thrillers with unreliable narrators lately. These narrators are not neccesarily guilty of any crime, but for reasons of their own they're just not revealing all the facts. Mark I'd like to punch.

If this wasn't a public space, I'd share with you what I called him in my head. I don't particularly care for his mom, either. Jeez.

Nancy wrote: "If this wasn't a public space, I'd share with you what I called him in my head. I don't particularly care for his mom, either. Jeez."

The randomly turning up expecting lunch would be bad enough without all the rest of his inconsiderate behaviours !

I really empathise with Louise as we are in similar situations ( I don't have small children but I'm a carer for two adults) Thankfully my husband is much more supportive. I really hope Louise doesn't turn out to be unreliable as I will feel betrayed!

By the way, my copy of the book has the title in luminous letters which I think is such a neat touch. I only spotted it when I woke up in the middle of the night, very much like Louise!

A bit before my time, but evidently in 1958 psychoanalysis was the thing. Between Magda and Mrs. Hooper, Chapter V made me laugh with all of the silly parenting psychobabble.

MissLemon wrote: "Nancy wrote: "If this wasn't a public space, I'd share with you what I called him in my head. I don't particularly care for his mom, either. Jeez."

The randomly turning up expecting lunch would be..."

I had four children. I can completely sympathize with Louise, especially if the baby is cutting teeth. I remember many a sleepless night and being utterly exhausted.

Cool on the luminous title!

I suppose that marriages where the husband behaved like Mark and the wife put up with it, like Louise, weren't uncommon back in 1958. Fortunately, things have changed for the better.

Oh dear. I'm at page 93, and I think perhaps there's something a wee bit off about Miss Brandon. If you've read beyond that page, don't tell me yet.

I've finished Nancy, I will wait for you.

I've given it 5 stars, I couldn't put it down for the last half so I was reading til 2am - I feel even more like Louise today!

MissLemon wrote: "I've finished Nancy, I will wait for you.

I've given it 5 stars, I couldn't put it down for the last half so I was reading til 2am - I feel even more like Louise today!"

I was Louise Tuesday and Wednesday of this week, but I'm not as nice as she is when I'm tired. I get overly cranky when I haven't slept for two days.

If you couldn't put it down, MissLemon, I'm really looking forward to reading more!!

I've started on the last half - and yes, there's definitely something off about Miss Brandon. There's so many clues that point in that direction. I puzzle over the references to Medea, though. I can't quite make sense of it, but think it must be there for a reason.

Tone wrote: "I've started on the last half - and yes, there's definitely something off about Miss Brandon. There's so many clues that point in that direction. I puzzle over the references to Medea, though. I ca..."

Usually there's a reason for references like that one, but maybe we're not far enough along to figure out what it means yet.

You're probably right, Nancy. After all, we don't know much about any of these people's background, least of all Miss Brandon's.

p. 122: I wonder if someone is trying to gaslight Louise? And if they've done it once, chances are they may do it again. The park at night episode with the baby started to give me a case of the willies. I would have kept going, but I was so sleepy I couldn't read any more.

I had to look up the word "gaslighting", as English is not my first language, but yes, I think that's what happened in the park. And please be prepared for more gaslighting to come.

Nancy wrote: "p. 122: I wonder if someone is trying to gaslight Louise? And if they've done it once, chances are they may do it again. The park at night episode with the baby started to give me a case of the wil..."

Have you finished yet Nancy? I SO want to comment on this but don't want to spoil anything!

I really felt whilst reading this that I was reading a piece of historical fiction because the writing feels so fresh. I understand from Wiki that the term 'gas lighting ' didn't become widely used until the 60s but as its origins are from a play and then films in the 30s and 40s there is every chance the author was familiar with the term.

MissLemon wrote: "Nancy wrote: "p. 122: I wonder if someone is trying to gaslight Louise? And if they've done it once, chances are they may do it again. The park at night episode with the baby started to give me a c..."

Oh! I finished last night!!! Then I was awake for quite a while. LOL!!

Tone wrote: "I had to look up the word "gaslighting", as English is not my first language, but yes, I think that's what happened in the park. And please be prepared for more gaslighting to come."

Oh, I'm sorry Tone. I often forget that not everyone is familiar with words I'm used to using. But it was my first thought once Louise realized the baby was in his crib at home.

MissLemon wrote: "Nancy wrote: "p. 122: I wonder if someone is trying to gaslight Louise? And if they've done it once, chances are they may do it again. The park at night episode with the baby started to give me a c..."

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036855/

I finished the book late last night and have given it 5 stars. This was indeed a great read, so thanks for suggesting it, Nancy.
I particularly liked Fremlin's portrayal of Louise and the description of her lot in life. Her mode of expression is both insightful and precise, e.g. when Louise says to herself that she is happy, but the happiness is like an evening gown at the back of her closet. She's not wearing it just now, but it's there. I think it's a wonderful way of putting it.

Nancy wrote: "MissLemon wrote: "Nancy wrote: "p. 122: I wonder if someone is trying to gaslight Louise? And if they've done it once, chances are they may do it again. The park at night episode with the baby star..."

I wanted to make a lame joke about the ending and the gas having been well and truly 'lit' 😉

Nancy wrote: "Tone wrote: "I had to look up the word "gaslighting", as English is not my first language, but yes, I think that's what happened in the park. And please be prepared for more gaslighting to come."

..."

That's fine with me, Nancy. I'm interested in languages and always keen on learning new words and phrases.

MissLemon wrote: "Nancy wrote: "MissLemon wrote: "Nancy wrote: "p. 122: I wonder if someone is trying to gaslight Louise? And if they've done it once, chances are they may do it again. The park at night episode with..."

Well, I'm so dumb that I didn't connect the two. LOL

I knew there was something wrong with Miss Brandon!

I have to say that I didn't figure it out until the truth about Miss Brandon started to come out as Louise was talking to the other women who had the same sort of experiences with her. With so many mysteries and crime novels under my belt, that's a good thing. I can't believe how very well Celia Fremlin pegged Louise's tiredness here -- as I said, been there done that. It it was especially good because I did have to wonder at times whether or not Louise was over tired to the point where she was just not straight in her thinking.

"happiness is like an evening gown at the back of her closet. She's not wearing it just now, but it's there. I think it's a wonderful way of putting it."

yes, that's a very good way to look at it.

I think this story was cleverly plotted, as few people would envisage a middle aged spinster as someone who had recently had a baby. I didn't see this ending coming, either. When it became clear to me that there was something very sinister about Miss Brandon, the references to Medea made me think that the motive had to be be revenge. However, this turned out to be a red herring.

Interesting review https://crimefictionlover.com/2015/09...

Tone wrote: "I think this story was cleverly plotted, as few people would envisage a middle aged spinster as someone who had recently had a baby. I didn't see this ending coming, either. When it became clear to..."

The references to Medea were clever, I thought, because I got the sense whenever they came up that some harm was going to come to the children. It caused me to be on alert for sure. I wonder if she put those there for that very reason.

We should read another book by her.

Nancy wrote: "Tone wrote: "I think this story was cleverly plotted, as few people would envisage a middle aged spinster as someone who had recently had a baby. I didn't see this ending coming, either. When it be..."

There's a lot of clever misdirection here. I was convinced the baby has been abducted when it disappeared from the park. Or that it would be in the pond. I really felt her panic and then relief when she put her arms in the pool.

I'd love to read another one of her books but it would be difficult to better this one

Personally, I love misdirection in a mystery/crime novel. Sometimes the straight-plot school of writing just gets boring, same old same old, and I'm always on the look out for something different. This one fit that bill perfectly.

I agree, some misdirection and challenge is essential in crime novels. They should also be well written, with interesting characters and a good plot, and in my opinion this book has all those things. I wouldn't mind reading another book by Fremlin at some point. Do you have any suggestions?

re challenge: I hate it when someone puts together a plot that is so easy to figure out that I sit waiting for the investigators/whoever to put 2 and 2 together.

I have a few more books of hers, but the one I'm inclined to read next is Uncle Paul. Here's part of the blurb (the "similar atmosphere" referring to The Hours Before Dawn).

"evokes a similar atmosphere of menace as the paranoia of her characters — and readers — combine to form a mood of increasing tension. Rich in psychological insight and dark humor, the elegant, razor-sharp quality of Fremlin's writing provides page-turning excitement"

Nancy wrote: "re challenge: I hate it when someone puts together a plot that is so easy to figure out that I sit waiting for the investigators/whoever to put 2 and 2 together.

I have a few more books of hers, ..."

This is why I read this kind of book and it's my favourite genre : I love a puzzle and trying to work out what's going on but I don't want it to be easy. I'd rather not work it out until the author wants me to, in fact! Sometimes with Agatha Christie ( my favourite author) I actually sense her sitting back and saying ' ok it's time you worked it out, here's the final piece of the puzzle'. Often I'm still wrong, which I like much better than if I've worked it out from the start!
I'd like to read more of Fremlins work but my library only had one more, I can't remember now what it was but I don't think it was Uncle Paul. I might be able to get hold of a copy in my budget though.

MissLemon wrote: "Nancy wrote: "re challenge: I hate it when someone puts together a plot that is so easy to figure out that I sit waiting for the investigators/whoever to put 2 and 2 together.

I have a few more b..."

Well, find out which one your library has and let us know.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've just put "Uncle Paul" on my TBR-list. It's available on Amazon in paperback, hardcover and kindle at quite reasonable prices.

Nancy wrote: "MissLemon wrote: "Nancy wrote: "re challenge: I hate it when someone puts together a plot that is so easy to figure out that I sit waiting for the investigators/whoever to put 2 and 2 together.

I..."

Thanks Nancy but you go ahead with Uncle Paul if you like , I can't commit to when I'd be able to join in as I really should finish the other three books I'm reading ! ( enjoying The Shape of Water at the moment thanks to your recommendation of the series )

MissLemon wrote: "Nancy wrote: "MissLemon wrote: "Nancy wrote: "re challenge: I hate it when someone puts together a plot that is so easy to figure out that I sit waiting for the investigators/whoever to put 2 and 2..."

no worries, MissLemon. Enjoy Inspector Montalbano!!

Tone wrote: "Thanks for the suggestion. I've just put "Uncle Paul" on my TBR-list. It's available on Amazon in paperback, hardcover and kindle at quite reasonable prices."

When you are ready to read, give me a nudge!

I've just got started on One is a Lonely Number / Black Wings Has My Angel, but after that I'm happy to read Uncle Paul. Perhaps MissLemon will be able to join us by then, too?