Chicks On Lit discussion

I want to add a sketch my brother, an artist, did for me as a davor according to the discription at the beginning of the chapter. Please help me.

Thanks for creating unique threads for each part of the book. I prefer to read a book straight through and this allows me to do so and discuss at my pace without the problem of leaving spoilers for those who have not read that far.

So, now we see Alma growing up. She is a true combination of mother and father. There were a few elements of this family that I would not have expected. I am surprised that Beatrix does not intimidate her uneducated and self-conscious husband. I am surprised how quickly he seems to become an expert in so many fields, able to engage in passible conversation with experts in so many areas of interest. I would not have expected this materialistic couple with its emphasis on social standing to have taken in the orphan daughter of a prostitute. Prudence's personality seems to come out of no where. Where does this quiet, humble, accommodating child get her qualities from, not a prostitute mother who continues her infidelity after a respectible marriage, not her murdering father? I also did not expect this family to tolerate a Retta type of newcomer. I found her annoying and she did not invade my perfectly managed world.

Thank you Irene for the support.

I uploaded the picture under photos. Please comment.

Irene wrote: "Thanks for creating unique threads for each part of the book. I prefer to read a book straight through and this allows me to do so and discuss at my pace without the problem of leaving spoilers fo..."
Retta annoyed me. Prudence must have seen some unacceptable behaviors at home to have become such a quiet person. She may even realize, she isnt part of this family.

Alma was a comet, the only body in the heavens who was not held to a strict elliptical path. Could this be a foreshadowing for Alma's life?

Who rules the coop?

Irene wrote: "Alma was a comet, the only body in the heavens who was not held to a strict elliptical path. Could this be a foreshadowing for Alma's life?"

Alma's life seems to be following a very patterned path so far. Her scientific education, her freedom to study botany on her family estate may be unusual for a 19th century woman, but she is held closely in the gravitational pull of her parents' sun. She feels more like a planet than a commet at this point.

Irene I hope to get reading section 2 tonight so I will have comment.

Oh my gosh, I loved Retta! I'm cracking up that you found her irritating! I thought she was a much needed breath of fresh air. The entire Whittaker family is so academic (even Prudence, but I'll get to her in a second...), and Retta makes things a little more jovial. The only enjoyment Henry, Beatrix, and Alma get is in broadcasting their intelligence and superiority over peers. Until Retta appeared, there didn't seem to be any laughter for the sake of laughter. She's a little fool, but I think both Alma and Prudence needed a little fool in their lives.

As for Prudence...she I hate. Her silence, the appearance of perfection, and her immediate adoption drive me batty. You're right, Irene, her personality is out of place with her history; it's bizarre. I feel so bad for Alma when she tries to connect with Prudence and is met with silence.

I am loving Alma, though. She is very much a creature of her parents, and does function out of a place of duty and scholarship, but there's this underlying passion (enter the binding room (and good grief, can we talk about the fact that she's... relieving herself in the BINDING room???)) she has. Perhaps she is a comet--not entirely unlike her father, but on her own trajectory. And then there's the moss. Could anything be more perfect for her to study? Grounded, mysterious, overlooked...

I thought that the moss was a perfect image for Alma also. I think it is part 3 that starts with a description of moss that made the connection for me: semingly insignificant, but very complex when viewed closely, asexual (her sexual needs are self-met), brilliant enough to flurish in nearly any environment. I wonder if there is any symbolic significance to the binding room for the location of her self-erotic activities. I kept wondering why she just did not play with herself under the covers, why risk a room in the middle of the day. But, then I wondered about her using a tiny room off the library, the contrast between the realm of the mind verses the passions of the body, the word "binding" when she was allowing for a certain amount of unbinding, etc.

I think that room bring out her deep desires. That room represents knowledge, learning and experiments.

Irene wrote: "I thought that the moss was a perfect image for Alma also. I think it is part 3 that starts with a description of moss that made the connection for me: semingly insignificant, but very complex whe..."

Great analogy.

The book, A Grain of Salt. yikes, who read 50 shades of grey? Is it compatible?

We found Prudence's passion, equality among humans .

What are the struggles each character wrestles with?

Alma decribes Retta as a bird and then she pops the news that she is going to marry Mr. George Hawkes. Is this a play on words from the author? How?

Irene wrote: "What are the struggles each character wrestles with?"

Henry: fallibility as a human, control over all situations
Beatrix: weakness
Prudence: the frivolousness and materialism if the Whittaker
Alma: lack of freedom and inability to express get passions out loud

Irene wrote: "I uploaded the picture under photos. Please comment."

Great picture, but poor Alma. She is a bit of a homely girl! LOL

Irene wrote: "The book, A Grain of Salt. yikes, who read 50 shades of grey? Is it compatible?"

No, I didn't think of 50 Shades when I read what Alma was reading. 50 Shades is pretty idiotic. Her book seems more like a text book, more Masters and Johnson, more scientific, which would be more to Alma's liking. Alma would have found 50 Shades to be drivel. LOL

I'm a bit behind, so I just got caught up on reading this section. Interesting development. We see Alma going to childhood to young adult. She still seems to be in her own little world though, wrapped up in just herself. I'm wondering where this is going.

I see Henry struggles with himself. He hates the fact he is a son of poor people. He is obviously illiterate. He does everything he can to perceive otherwise. Everything he does is to surround himself with intellectual people and books for the illusion that he himself is part of that crowd. But he isnt, and never will.

Although Henry lacks formal schooling, he is obviously very intellegent and is an autodidact. He discovered by the end of part 1 that, no matter how well he proves himself, what he accomplishes, his humble birth will exclude him from "acceptable" society in England. The one dinner party he attends after moving to Philadelphia makes it clear that there is n old world money set that will always look down on him for the same reason. But, he has discovered that there is another group of people emerging in this colonial era that is much like him: men (and the occassional woman) who used their natural talent, drive or brains to
"make something of themselves". These are the scholars and artists, the explorers and businessmen who populate the Whittaker dinner table. If certain individuals reject Henry's hospitality, it is not because of where he has come from, but because of who he is today and what he believes. He is not only accepted by this emerging group but is admired by it.

Excellent observation Irene. That's one of the many benefits of America to be what you want as long as one puts time and effort into it.

Well, as long as you are a white, middle- class male. ..

On page 170, Alma learns Retta is to be married to George she goes to Prudence to get answers. There is a line Prudence says to Alma after Alma apologizes, "Think nothing of it," Prudence said, and turned toward the door. "I had not expected anything different." What does Prudence mean by this? Through out the story being told by Alma, we learn of Prudence's withdrawn behavior, but this makes me th I nk that perhaps Prudence behaved that way because she was never accepted as a Whittaker and Alma made sure of that.

It almost seems that we don't really know the real Prudence. We only really get to know Alma, and her opinions of everyone else. I have a feeling Prudence is smarter that Alma gives her credit for. And I think Alma has been acting superior to her their whole life.

Alma acts like a jealous sibling, jealous at the arrival of a new baby in the house who threatens to rob away the parents' attention. Only, children usually grow out of this behavior at some relatively young point. Alma never does. For all her superior intellegence, she is not very mature.

I take it she was overshadowed by Alma.

Is everyone enjoying this book. I think its coming together to me now after the death of Beatrix. Irene I think I differ I do not think it was Alma that caused the divide between Alma and Prudence but it was Beatrix always tending to Alma and Prudence was left to go by the wayside.
I can see the point Daniale about Retta being a breath of fresh air to the storyline but I thought she came as addition at an odd time.

The start of the book revolved so much around Henry in the beginning it really bored me. The pages did also the pages of all Henry's dislikes. It seems that Alma had to tiptoe around her father in many ways.

I am still not sure at this point where the author is going with all the sexual exploration of Alma? Although I do think it got defined more clearly when Alma said she has two rooms one for the mind and one for the body.

The authors timeline of events is odd to me. I was thinking in particular to Joseph Banks dying and why it was necessary for that to be announced so many years later in the book? I also wondered of Beatrix character and intellect were very realistic given her time? I guess for me she seems ahead of her time and maybe that was intentional by the author?

I felt for Prudence at the table on the Negrodism discussion. I thought she had a valid arguable point and perhaps that is what all the fuss was about over it with Beatrix. Again Irene I think there is another example of Beatrix being the one to tell her she must never do that again.

I think now that Beatrix has died the storyline will pick up again. I am curious to see how Alma will run the estate. Does anyone have concern about how Alma is handling her grief? Running to the binding room AGAIN?

Irene Have you figured out fiddle, fork and spoon yet?

Rebecca, It reminds me of the Hey, Diddle Diddle.

I was disappointed in Alma, she act in a way that her mother would have never wanted to see her be like. Did we talk about Hanneke at all? I think she maybe the most developed character in the book and the one with the most sense

Hanneke was a wise woman. Beatrix and Henry must have seen this and trusted her with all their wealth. Like she said, I live in a vault. She had great advise for Alma. She was a grandmother figure. I don't understand why she was upset with Alma about her marriage to Ambrose.

Hanneke is more self-sacrificing than Prudence. She leaves all that is familiar to her, her homeland, language, relations, to travel to an unfamiliar contenent in service to her young mistress. She seems to own little beyond the clothes on her back. She sleeps in the basement, labors all day, appears to never have a day off and abandons any personal dreams of marriage, love, children of her own. That far surpasses the sacrifice of Prudence. Yet, Prudence seems to get the praise. I wonder why? In the early 19th century, I suspect that servants and slaves were not viewed as fully human, as property in the service of the owner. But, even the author does not give her much humanity. She is definitely an astute observer of the family dynamics. However, does not wisdom imply enough self-awareness to recognize the injustice of her own situation? Maybe she does recognize this off the page. But, fictional characters only live and breath to the extent it is revealed in the story.

Irene wrote: "Hanneke is more self-sacrificing than Prudence. She leaves all that is familiar to her, her homeland, language, relations, to travel to an unfamiliar contenent in service to her young mistress. S..."

Henneke is better example of self-sacrifice than Prudence. I think Beatrix 's family owned that family as indenture servants. This was Henneke's life to death.

I did not catch that the entire family was endentured servants of Beatrix's family. I don't recall anything about Hanneke's family at all. But, if in deed they were endentured, wouldn't that mean that their terms of service would end at some point?

Irene wrote: "I did not catch that the entire family was endentured servants of Beatrix's family. I don't recall anything about Hanneke's family at all. But, if in deed they were endentured, wouldn't that mean..."

It wasn't written in the novel. I should have made that clear, sorry. I was guessing.