Horror Aficionados discussion

This is the thread for our March 2020 Group Read with Guest Author, Brian Kirk. This month we’ll be reading Brian’s Bram Stoker Award-nominated story. WE ARE MONSTERS. If you’d like to join us, you can grab a copy of his book at the link below.. Please help me welcome to HA, Brian Kirk!

https://www.amazon.com/Are-Monsters-F...

Hey, Brian! Welcome! I look forward to reading your work!

Hi! Thank you for joining us!

Welcome Brian! I've read (and loved) this book already, so I will be joining in the group chat!!

Hey, everyone! Thank you so much for inviting me to participate. I'm honored to be selected for this, and happy to discuss the story and answer any questions you might have along the way. As this is my first HA group read, I don't really know all the protocols, so please let me know the extent to which you want my involvement. I'd love to be able to provide insights, etc., but also want to be respectful of everyone's ability to frankly discuss the story without my interference, if that makes sense.

Anyhoo. Happy to be here, and thanks! I hope you all enjoy the read.

Brick wrote: "Hey, Brian! Welcome! I look forward to reading your work!"

Hey, Brick! Thanks, I appreciate it. I hope it works for you, my friend.

Latasha wrote: "Hi! Thank you for joining us!"

Thank you for having me!

Kimberly wrote: "Welcome Brian! I've read (and loved) this book already, so I will be joining in the group chat!!"

Aw, thanks! That's very nice to hear, and I look forward to discussing the book with you.

Just ordered my copy today. As soon as it arrives, I'll be joining in.

Michael wrote: "Just ordered my copy today. As soon as it arrives, I'll be joining in."

Thanks, Michael! I hope you enjoy the read.

I received my copy today. I'll start reading this later tonight. The back cover description has me engaged already. I love horror stories where the horror is more true and human and doesn't involve monstrous creatures.

Brian wrote: "Michael wrote: "Just ordered my copy today. As soon as it arrives, I'll be joining in."

Thanks, Michael! I hope you enjoy the read."

Chapter One has already pulled me into the story. I love the hook in that opening line: "No matter how many times he saw the syringe, the needle always looked too long."
That's the way to create apprehension in the very first sentence. I can't stand needles.
The description of the needle in action on the rest of the page left me extremely squeamish.

After just two chapters featuring Alex Drexler, I already don't like him. I believe (and hope) he is a secondary character. What a creep.

Michael wrote: "I received my copy today. I'll start reading this later tonight. The back cover description has me engaged already. I love horror stories where the horror is more true and human and doesn't involve..."

Thanks, glad you enjoyed that opening line. Opening sentences are important to me. In fact, I have a habit of reading opening lines when browsing bookstores. I'm always interested to see how an author sets the tone.

Regarding Alex, he is definitely a difficult character to like.

Glad to hear that you intentionally made Alex hard to like. You succeeded. I did find another character who's an even bigger a-hole than Alex: his father. Alex's childhood/high school situation with his father made me experience some empathy for him - - but I'm still not liking Alex.
Really enjoying the story so far. I like how you wove in the other plot threads in a seamless fashion. You've accomplished a lot in 36 pages so far.

Brian, I read this when it was first published in 2015. Can you tell me if the new Flame Tree release has any major differences from that one?

I didn’t make any substantive changes to this second edition. I polished it a bit, and provided a bit more context for a certain section in the third act to help people through it. Nothing that would stand out during a second read, though, I don’t think. I wanted to leave it mostly alone.

Brian wrote: "I didn’t make any substantive changes to this second edition. I polished it a bit, and provided a bit more context for a certain section in the third act to help people through it. Nothing that wou..."
I really enjoyed it, but am thinking of getting the "new"version, just to re-read in a physical format. :)

I will say that the physical book itself that Flame Tree Press produced is much nicer than the Samhain edition. Totally up to you, of course! 🙂

Brian wrote: "I will say that the physical book itself that Flame Tree Press produced is much nicer than the Samhain edition. Totally up to you, of course! 🙂"

I've LOVED the Flame Tree editions!

I'm up to Chapter Eighteen (page 90) of the 2015 Samhain edition.
More character reveals, more plot developments. Both keep me turning pages. (view spoiler)[All these characters are conflicted. Guess that's what happens when you work at a mental hospital. Eli is the most sympathetic, but suffers from PTSD from the Vietnam war. Angela seemed to be the most good-natured until that scene at the bar. She has big problems. Alex is self-centered and driven. Rachel seems the most normal so far. I like Jerry, although I suspect something bad will happen to him. After the initial chapter failures of Alex's formula and the discovery that his brother is a patient at the hospital, I suspected that brother Jerry would become the only one left for Alex to try his cure on. Although, experimenting on your own brother certainly creates a new level of risk for Alex and raises the stakes. I also suspect that the serial killer patient Crosby will end up under Alex's needle. Probably when Crosby gets too violent and as a last resort Eli agrees to using the formula on him. (hide spoiler)]

Hello Brian and fellow readers, I'm looking forward to the book and it's discussion here!

Kimberly wrote: "Brian, I read this when it was first published in 2015. Can you tell me if the new Flame Tree release has any major differences from that one?"

Huh, so far I only purchased this when it was first published in 2015...I really appreciate that these group help reduce my TBR stack :)

Funny that I just read a book which also took place in an asylum (though it was a huge disappointment for me, but that's a different story). So I have no doubt that 'We Are Monsters' will be much better, and I'm eager to start. I am already hooked by the first sentence, which was mentioned in one of the posts above.

Now at Chapter 31, page 146 of the 2015 edition.
Part One ends on a real cliffhanger, and raises several questions. (view spoiler)[ I was disturbed and confused by the return of Popeye as well as the unknown doorbell ringer. Heard a possible explanation in Part Two and still trying to wrap my head around it. Good one (hide spoiler)] My suspicions about the eventual involvement of two characters were apparently correct, although I didn't get who would initiate that right, and was surprised by the suddenness of what happened at the end of Part One. Keep me guessing, Brian. That's what we readers like.

Michael wrote: "Now at Chapter 31, page 146 of the 2015 edition.
Part One ends on a real cliffhanger, and raises several questions. [spoilers removed] My suspicions about the eventual involvement of two characters..."

I appreciate your engagement, Michael, and am glad I'm keeping you on your toes. More surprises await, that I can assure you.

Elke wrote: "Hello Brian and fellow readers, I'm looking forward to the book and it's discussion here!

Hey, welcome aboard! I hope this asylum story works better for you than the last one. :-)

I'm at Chapter Eleven (Page 56) of the 2020 edition. I am definitely enthralled so far. I am horrified by Alex and curious about Eli here, too. Everyone seems to have a darkness to them. I definitely want to know more about Jerry and what happened to him.
I love stories about mental asylums, so this one is keeping me entertained and I am very, very interested in the patients, especially Crosby.
I get the feeling Brian Kirk did a bunch of research on mental disorders and what not.

Hey Brian, how extensively did you have to research medicine/mental illness/treatments to write this? :)

Samantha wrote: "I'm at Chapter Eleven (Page 56) of the 2020 edition. I am definitely enthralled so far. I am horrified by Alex and curious about Eli here, too. Everyone seems to have a darkness to them. I definite..."

Thanks, glad to hear you're enjoying it so far!

I conducted a bunch of research before writing this novel. I read books on the history of mental health treatments, as well as books written by people who suffer serious mental health disorders, such as schizophrenia. I visited a psychiatric ward in Atlanta, where I live, and interviewed the facility's medical director. A mural that I saw at the facility inspired a mural found in the novel.

Mental health is a personal subject for me, and I wanted to make sure I treated those who struggle with mental health disorders with compassion and respect. So many asylum stories portray the patients as dangerously violent and wildly INSANE, almost like they're sub-human, which is not the case. These are regular people who happen to have debilitating illnesses and would like to get well.

The research was intense. Want to read a horror story? Learn about how we've historically treated the mentally ill.

Brian wrote: "Samantha wrote: "I'm at Chapter Eleven (Page 56) of the 2020 edition. I am definitely enthralled so far. I am horrified by Alex and curious about Eli here, too. Everyone seems to have a darkness to..."

That's amazing and thorough, Brian. If you're willing to share, I'd love some recommendations of books you liked written by people suffering from mental disorders. It is an intriguing subject to me. Were you welcomed at the psychiatric ward in Atlanta and how forthcoming were they will patient details, if at all?

Thanks so much for your time and answers!

Now at page 247 of the 2015 edition, just finished the short Chapter Fifty-Four. Brian wasn't kidding when he hinted about more surprises and twists! (view spoiler)[ I guess that extra dose of medicine gave Crosby supernatural like powers to prey on everyone's deepest fears and then have them visualized. That seems a bit over-the-top and I'm not sure I like that. This section of the book seems a little too long, although the various scenes of out-of-body experiences are well done. I"ll trust that Brian is going to have a good explanation for all of this in the coming chapters. (hide spoiler)]

Just started and already so much has happened - I like the pace of the story. The dog scene was a mean little episode that caught me off guard.

I still have to figure out the different characters, especially Eli who made such a nice first impression. On the other hand, Alex came off as the bad guy from the beginning, but his private background adds an unexpected human aspect to his motives.

I wonder whether in the end the 'apocalypse killer' will be less of a monster than the people supposed to help him...and what about the group visions or hallucinations mentioned here, they sure sound apocalyptic, too - coincidence? I wonder whether that subject will be further explored.

Brian wrote: "Elke wrote: "Hello Brian and fellow readers, I'm looking forward to the book and it's discussion here!

Hey, welcome aboard! I hope this asylum story works better for you than the last one. :-)"

Thank you and indeed, it already works much better! Can't wait to continue.

Samantha wrote: "Brian wrote: "Samantha wrote: "I'm at Chapter Eleven (Page 56) of the 2020 edition. I am definitely enthralled so far. I am horrified by Alex and curious about Eli here, too. Everyone seems to have..."

Hi Samantha. Certainly, I would recommend "The Center Cannot Hold: My Journey Through Madness" by Elyn R. Saks. It's a memoire written by a highly successful woman, describing her struggles with schizophrenia.

The psychiatric ward was very guarded and protective of its patients, as it should be. I was not allowed to step foot inside patients' area, though I entered this area by accident. I had to arrive at 5:30am to meet with the medical director, as she would only meet with me before the facility "opened." When I arrived, I announced my arrival through an intercom system, explaining the nature of my visit, and the receptionist buzzed me through. I passed through a couple of doors, and was surprised to find myself in the ward itself. The scene where Alex first arrives at the hospital was inspired by this experience, and what I saw in the few minutes I was inside. I knew I wasn't supposed to be there, and I explained this to the receptionist, and returned to the waiting area outside until the medical director arrived to take me to her office.

With the medical director, I mostly wanted to find out what "a day inside a mental health facility looked like." What was the daily itinerary? Who was involved? How were the accommodations? What were the interactions like? I brought a digital camera, this was before I had an iPhone, and she took pictures of the facility for me, including artwork that the patients had created, such as the mural. The artwork was incredible, and made me realize the creative spirit that existed within these people who were unable, at that time, to function in society.

I introduce so many surreal elements to the story, I knew the base reality had to feel authentic, so this research was vital. Plus it was illuminating in many ways that fundamentally altered how I view people suffering from severe mental disorders.

Michael wrote: "Now at page 247 of the 2015 edition, just finished the short Chapter Fifty-Four. Brian wasn't kidding when he hinted about more surprises and twists! [spoilers removed]"

Ha, indeed. Yes, Part III is typically the litmus test that divides readers. For some, it's where the story really gets going, for others, it's too surreal and jarring. Much of my work tends to be polarizing, and the surrealism of this section is a prime example of why.

I do attempt to explain the nature of the phenomena being experienced, though I believe I beefed this up a bit in the second edition. I won't elaborate now, for fear of spoiling. But hopefully the text itself provides sufficient "theoretical" explanation.

Brian wrote: "Samantha wrote: "Brian wrote: "Samantha wrote: "I'm at Chapter Eleven (Page 56) of the 2020 edition. I am definitely enthralled so far. I am horrified by Alex and curious about Eli here, too. Every..."

Incredible! That is very cool. Thank you so much for that recommendation, too! :)

I finished this morning. (view spoiler)[ I can't say I'm entirely satisfied with the latter part of the book and how it ended but I certainly don't regret reading it, just to savor the writing skills and imagery that Brian displays. The ending is somewhat vague as to what happens next and leaves that up to the reader's discretion. I feel Brian missed an opportunity to make a statement here with a stronger ending, but perhaps that is exactly what he wanted. What exactly separates normality from abnormality, and how many of us are walking the tightrope between the two? (hide spoiler)]Earlier on I was ready to give this a five-star review. But I no longer feel as strongly about that and give this a well-deserved four-star rating. My comments in the spoilers will explain why, but please don't read them until you've finished the book.

Brian, I have a few questions if you don't mind responding to them.
(view spoiler)[ 1) It seems to me that Eli has become the savior, returning the hospital to everyday status but has died in that effort, and it was a willful decision. Was it your intention to imply that, or something else? 2) It also seems that Alex, Angela, Crosby, and others have been cured of their deep secret fears as a result of the surrealistic events springing out of Crosby's massive dose of the formula. However, the experience seems to have brought Bearman's (great choice of name) latent psychosis to the surface. Isn't that a contradiction? Wouldn't he also have become a more enlightened person as a result of this experience? 3) If the climatic events have brought all the key staff members to a better place, wouldn't the same have happened for all the patients? If so, then they could all be
deemed cured and released from the hospital. 4) If Eli chose to die, then was death Jerry's choice as well? I could see that he wouldn't want to live unless he could fully return to his former state. If so, why so violent a death? And if it was his choice, why would he lay such a guilt trip on his brother?
5) I realize these are all my interpretations as to the conclusion of the novel. Please enlighten me as to what is on the mark and what is way off base. I"ve enjoyed your novel, and wish you well in your future writing endeavors. (hide spoiler)]

Michael wrote: "Brian, I have a few questions if you don't mind responding to them.
1) It seems to me that Eli has become the savior, returning the hospital to everyday status but has died in that effort, and it ..."

I'm happy to answer your questions. But, first, thank you for taking the time to read the novel, and offering your thoughts.

(view spoiler)[1) I don't believe Eli died. He is catatonic on the bench by the fountain when the novel ends. By taking the medicine, Eli was able to have some degree of dominion within the realm that Crosby created, and help return the residents of Sugar Hill back to their base reality. It's a bit like the movie Inception, where different rules apply to dreams inside a dream. But the medicine also untethered Eli from his rational mind--perhaps even causing a full blown psychotic break--which allowed him access to a more spiritual realm where he was able to reunite with Lacy. Whether or not he will regain his sanity, or control over his body again, is undetermined.

2) Psychedelic medicines show great potential in treating various forms of mental illnesses, but they can also trigger psychotic episodes. Sometimes when someone suffers through a "bad" trip, they come out on the other side feeling more enlightened, even if the experience was terrifying. Other times, the experience produces a traumatic event that worsens a person's mental condition. I don't believe Bearman is ready to accept whatever hard lessons he learned while diving deep into his subconscious, and facing whatever demons exist there. Plus, Dr. Francis worked on his brain while in their shared realm, which could attribute to his mental state at the end.

3) In my mind, not all of the people in Sugar Hill went to the same place during the ordeal. Most of the patients were cast into a void. A place that Randall called, "the in-between." I also did not personally view the experience as something that would be a panacea that fixes all mental states. I feel that by having access to the contents of their subconscious, and having their inner demons brought to life, Angela and Alex obtained insights that will help them improve their lives. But I did not see it as a blanket experience that rewires everyone back to normal.

4) I don't believe that either chose to die, though Eli willingly sacrificed his sanity. In Jerry's case, the drug created a reality--perhaps even a parallel world--where the contents of his mind, and of those around him, could be manifested into their material reality. The drug produced a state where the person he feared most--the orderly Devon--came to kill him. It wasn't something he consciously willed to happen.

5) Much of the surreal phenomena is based in fringe quantum physics mixed with the mysterious effects caused by strong hallucinogenics such as DMT. I'm fascinated by fringe theories and woo-woo metaphysics, even if I don't necessarily believe any of it, and felt like these concepts fit with what I wanted to explore in this novel. (hide spoiler)]

I hope this helps clear up some of your questions. Thank you again for taking the trip, and interacting with me. Please let me know if there's anything else you'd like to know.

Brian wrote: "Michael wrote: "Brian, I have a few questions if you don't mind responding to them.
I hope this helps clear up some of your questions.
Thanks, Brian. Your answers helped quite a bit. I have a better understanding of your intent as well as a better appreciation of the novel as a result. Hopefully, I am only one of a small group who needs more clarity, and others can fully appreciate the novel without benefit of q & a with the author.
I'm grateful for the generosity of your time.

Finished and here is my review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Brian wrote: "Ha, indeed. Yes, Part III is typically the litmus test that divides readers. For some, it's where the story really gets going, for others, it's too surreal and jarring. Much of my work tends to be polarizing, and the surrealism of this section is a prime example of why."

He, that is exactly the kind of story I usually shy away from - I hate it when there's too much unexplained unreality (is that a fitting noun for surreal?), but I never felt 'lost' with this book, and I really appreciate that.

Brian wrote: "I do attempt to explain the nature of the phenomena being experienced, though I believe I beefed this up a bit in the second edition. I won't elaborate now, for fear of spoiling. But hopefully the text itself provides sufficient "theoretical" explanation."

It definitely did, and in a very understandable way!

Brian wrote: "Samantha wrote: "Brian wrote: "Samantha wrote: "I'm at Chapter Eleven (Page 56) of the 2020 edition. I am definitely enthralled so far. I am horrified by Alex and curious about Eli here, too. Every..."

I finished the book last night and definitely enjoyed it. It's surreal and cathartic.

(Slight spoilers): I found the concept of redemption for all to be prevalent and I liked it a lot. Now that I've finished it though, I would love to see the picture you took of that mural in the facility that inspired you, Brian. I really felt like I could hear the breeze and smell the leaves on the trees with your description.

Good one! :)

Here is my (some spoilers) 4 Star Review of "We Are Monsters" for those who have finished the book and are interested in my thoughts.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Elke wrote: "Finished and here is my review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Brian wrote: "Ha, indeed. Yes, Part III is typically the litmus test that divides readers. For some, it's where the..."

Thanks, Elke! Glad to hear it.

Elke wrote: "Finished and here is my review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Brian wrote: "Ha, indeed. Yes, Part III is typically the litmus test that divides readers. For some, it's where the..."

Thanks, Samantha! Surreal and cathartic is an apt description of what I was aiming for. I appreciate that.

I'd love to find the photos taken from inside that facility. They were on an old digital camera that I'm pretty sure got thrown away. I'll dig around to see if I can find it.

Brian wrote: "Elke wrote: "Finished and here is my review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Brian wrote: "Ha, indeed. Yes, Part III is typically the litmus test that divides readers. For some, i..."

It would be super cool if you locate the photos, but if not, I really appreciate your work done here and having the ability to chat with you about it as I read it. I'll keep my eye on this Discussion just in case you do find that picture though. ;)

Thanks Brian!