SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Looking for the best SF that explores the "What If" in a post-scarcity world (or galaxy). What if there were enough resources for all? What would we do with ourselves?

Since it's me asking, I'll say:

Limited if any politics, intrigue, adventure, gore, or general darkness or heaviness.

Humor in small doses is good.
Epics are not so good.

Pretentious or experimental writing is not my fave - I want to think about the point of the story, not get worn out trying to figure out what the heck the story is.

Insufficiently developed individual characters, info-dumps, & imperfect science are ok. Dated classics are ok if they're not horribly misogynist or racist etc.. YA & 'children's' are ok.

Please don't just list a title but say something about why you think I'd like it, or why you think it belongs on the list for other people reading along.

Thank you so much!

When I see "post-scarcity" I always think of Iain M. Banks and his Culture series. The Player of Games is a good example. He spent a fair amount of time on the subject of what long-lived beings do with their lives when they don't have to work. The answer often seemed to involve boredom leading to some amount of politics and intrigue so, depending on how specific your aversion is there, it may or may not be a good match for you. Perhaps it will work for others.

I think I'm a bit unsure what you're looking for, with all that you AREN'T looking for. All of the post scarcity books I can think of are either adventures, philosophical or about intrigue, but maybe hearing about an example that worked for you will help me figure out what is viable :)

I'd definitely second Raucous' rec for Player of Games - indeed, all of Banks' Culture novels, although the post-scarcity is the background in which the Culture exists and the relevance in the novels varies - for example, off-hand references to a character that had decided to spend some time as a different species to see how it felt or the continent-spanning cable car system in Look to Windward that someone had spent decades building because they were bored, right up to it being an important plot element, such as characters (humans or Minds - that is, the sentient AIs that run the civilisation's ship and habitats) who have lived so long they've had enough.



A common element in many of the books is the semi-mythical, pseudo secret division of the Culture's Contact section called Special Circumstances. These are the people and machines who are the secret agents interacting with other civilisations. By definition, the are rare individuals - why would most people seek out that life when they can entertain and fulfil themselves in any way they can imagine? Sometimes, they even recruit externally, as with the main character in Use of Weapons, Cheradanine Zakalwe, a soldier and tactician so talented he actually seems incapable of losing a conflict, even when he's supposed to.




Oh, and I should add that what makes these books so good is that Banks is a writer of literary greatness. All his books are about characters first and foremost, but also about conflict and morality and decision and massive space battles,

Good points.

Um, what worked for me, well, can't think of any right now. Maybe it's a book waiting to be written!

I remember a short story that I've seen in a couple anthologies about time travelers from the future who need to rent a particular house in San Francisco (?) for a short term (so they'll get to witness a cataclysm, the nature of which I forget) and the dilemma the current occupant faces because of the circumstances in his own life. Those future folks seemed pretty wealthy, but not elitist, just representatives of the future.

The Federation of Planets in Star Trek seems pretty much post-scarcity, in that any world they have direct influence over, like Vulcan or Earth, don't have slums and such.

I'm not too worried about how realistic the story's exploration of the idea is; it only needs to be somewhat plausible. I believe that sapient beings can possibly get beyond politics etc. and still not get bored. Science and the arts seem like good outlets.

Oh, there's a trope about utopias that are dependent on 'fixing' deviants, too. Not sure whether I'm interested in those kinds of books... they'd have to be hopeful, rather than purely dystopian.

So, I dunno, maybe I'm looking for a plausible utopia?

Or maybe 'abundance' is good enough, as in most people have pretty much enough, and only need to achieve more if they want more (like a barter economy for luxury items maybe).

And of course the book can have adventure... I just mean that it shouldn't be the most primary thing it has, with the exploration of the idea buried in the background.

Hmm, I guess the Star Trek novels, especially those accompanying Next Generation, could qualify.

But it's just extremely difficult to have any kind of plot without scarcity: if nobody in the book *wants* anything, you've got no story. So, just to ensure there can be a plot, there always needs to be some problem, something one wants to have, etc. The moment you have a truly perfect utopia, your book becomes stagnant because the stakes are removed (unless you introduce an outside threat, e.g. evil aliens). I guess this is why it's so hard to think of a book that's both truly utopian *and* a good read I'd recommend. But yes, I guess your best bet are Star Trek novels. I've also read that The Diamond Age: Or, A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer is a post-scarcity novel, but don't know if that's true.

I asked for stories of this type on Twitter a few years back and the only recommendation that was satisfying to read was the Culture series, which has been recommended already.

Children's End, which is on the groups bookshelf, may have some post-scarcity elements but I've only seen the movie to make that claim on.

Utopias that aren't merely dystopias from the perspectives of the ruling class seem to be rare. If writing manifests destiny then we're doomed.

Eva wrote: "I've also read that The Diamond Age: Or, A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer is a post-scarcity novel, but don't know if that's true."

Sort of? It does not take place in a post-scarcity society, but the possibility of a post-scarcity society is an important topic in the book. Semi-spoiler elaboration: (view spoiler)[In that book nobody has to starve, but there's scarcity of many other things, including education, clean environment, most luxuries, etc. The conflict/climax of the story is in large part about a technological change that may bring about something closer to a post-scarcity society, and its possible negative ramifications for social order. (hide spoiler)]

Nothing is ever simple in a Neal Stephenson novel.

Against the Fall of Night is on a list. I don't know if it's a good book though.

Honestly, I've seen that argument before, Eva, and I don't buy it. But I would buy the book that I'm looking for if someone would write it. ;)

I'm not sure what you mean - I did recommend *850* books to you (that's how many Star Trek books there are). I mean - why not start with them? And as mentioned several times, the Culture novels also feature what you're looking for. So why are you still saying "if someone would write it"?

Most of the work of Peter F Hamilton is in a post-scarcity world.

Ah, I see Cheryl. I'd count most of the Star Trek books either adventure or intrigue, which was my confusion, but thanks for clarifying--I think I understand better your definition.

Emergency Skin I think fits this. (What happens when someone from a world of scarcity returns to a land of plenty?)

There's Brave New World, which explores the difference between having your needs satisfied, ecstasy, and happiness.

Beggars in Spain might work...I kind of hated it, but I don't think I'm in the usual crowd on this one. What if some people didn't sleep and instead spent that time bettering the world?

The Terra Ignota series by Ada Palmer is all post scarcity, but the writing is extremely experimental, and there's a ton of intrigue. But I think it's a fairly fascinating look at one outcome of man's great achievements.

Carnival? This book explores different meanings of freedom, health, happiness etc. There is a central plot involving political shenanigans, but the machinations are not the important part, the exploration of the culture until the mystery is solved is more important.

Heart of Gold maybe? It's been a long time since I read it, but my memory is that this is a world with lots of wealth, lots of opportunity for folks, and still it is not perfect.

Well, I have already read lots of Star Trek books and will continue to do so. And I'm looking at the Culture books, but I've rejected them in the past for one reason or another.

I challenge authors to be creative and fill in gaps, that's all. Ryan implies that he's looking for more, too.

If I recall correctly, one of the reasons I like the works of Clifford D. Simak is that there's no reference to scarcity.

So, another way to think about is: one of the main points of my request is that I'm tired of all the despair, all the underworld slums, all the competition for precious resources.

I'm currently reading Mission Child because I loved Maureen F. McHugh's China Mountain Zhang. Unfortunately Mission Child is unrelenting starvation of both body and spirit, and though there are some wonderful ideas about gender identity and explorations of interpersonal r'ships in it, it's just such a downer.

Allison, thank you, of course I've read Brave New World (and actually it's our irl library book club selection next month!) but the others I will definitely consider.

I’m assuming you’ve read Simak’s Way Station?

Right, I've read or have on my shortlist almost all of Simak.

I am reminded of this quote from The Hobbit …

Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway.

That's what has been said, indeed.

I don't consider the correlation so strong, though.

Cory Doctorow May have a book or two that fit the bill....

Cheryl wrote: "That's what has been said, indeed.

I don't consider the correlation so strong, though."

I think it's why Iain M. Banks's Culture novels almost entirely avoid dealing with anything inside the Culture itself. Almost all of them are concerned with how the Culture interacts with non-Culture societies. AKA the darker side of the Culture. (He also is criticized a lot for including torture and other unsavory stuff.)

Player of Games, IIRC, avoids the ugly stuff but it's still a tale outside of the post-scarcity Culture.

"Most people don't believe something can happen until it already has. That's not stupidity or weakness, that's just human nature."

Max Brooks, World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War

I'm with Cheryl on this. The idea that attending to people's material needs will result in nothing of interest as though society will cease progressing is wild to me.

Tx Micah for the clarification, and Ryan for the support.

Cheryl wrote: "Allison, thank you, of course I've read Brave New World (and actually it's our irl library book club selection next month!) but the others I will definitely consider."

I figured it likely you had, but didn't want to ignore a good example through assumption! Perhaps someone else is reading along with a similar interest :) I'll look forward to your thoughts on the rest of the suggestions here!

Ryan wrote: ""Most people don't believe something can happen until it already has. That's not stupidity or weakness, that's just human nature."

Max Brooks, World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War

I'm w..."
That is not an idea I've ever had nor expressed in this thread. I was speaking about *plot*, trying to explain why there are not that many really convincing utopias of plenty in literature: in a novel, things have to go wrong and be problematic so that the reader feels some tension and wants them to get better for the characters, and it's more challenging to write that while still displaying the culture and society in rosy terms. And then I mentioned over 800 books that manage to do that anyway, sheesh. I was just trying to explain why it's not easy to come up with as many recommendations as usual: literature just prefers to write about problems. Furthermore, it was never mentioned that this lack of scarcity refers to only material needs (e.g. in Star Trek, it doesn't). I was speaking about all kinds of scarcity and desire for something one can't immediately get, and the nature of book plots (NOT how uninteresting real life would be - BOOK PLOTS).

Eva, I don't think anyone was trying to attack you--if anything I think the idea that there were 800 books in a single series that might work suggests that some authors have found a lot of interesting plot ideas without scarcity, so thanks for helping locate a lot of them :)

The blurb for Steel Beach describes by implication the dilemma of 'what do we do with ourselves' in a time of abundance. Has anyone here read the book? Does anyone know if one needs to read the first "Eight Worlds" book, The Ophiuchi Hotline, first?

Eva, I'm sorry if I phrased my comments un-tactfully. I mean no insult or ingratitude.

Eva wrote: "Hmm, I guess the Star Trek novels, especially those accompanying Next Generation, could qualify.

But it's just extremely difficult to have any kind of plot without scarcity: if nobody in the book..."

Le Guin said in "Conversations on Writing":

"Modernist manuals of writing often conflate story with conflict. This reductionism reflects a culture that inflates aggression and competition while cultivating ignorance of other behavioral options. [...] No narrative of any complexity can be built on or reduced to a single element. Conflict is one kind of behavior. There are others, equally important in any human life, such as relating, finding, losing, bearing, discovering, parting, changing. Change is the universal aspect of all these sources of story. Story is something moving, something happening, something or somebody changing."

That's why I asked if you meant only materialist scarcity being eliminated or all kinds, because all of the above rely on some other kind of scarcity either being the case already or happening to the protagonist (apart from relating).

E.g. finding: if the protagonist already has 49 boyfriends they love and who love them, the story of them finding a 50th is not going interest me a lot. Same if they lose one of them but still have 48 left. "Bearing" also implies the possibility of suffering and bearing the fact that life is not how you want it to be, so also wouldn't be possible. Discovering: without a scarcity of discoveries, this would also be only a "huh, kinda nice, someone discovers even more stuff" story. "Parting" - same as losing. Changing: also possible, but again there would be no stakes, nothing to lose, nothing to gain, no danger, right? And genre fiction does usually have something at stake for the characters, something they're anxious about, want to avoid, want to overcome, want to achieve.

And again, I didn't say it was impossible to write good books without any kind of scarcity, simply that there would not be many examples of that apart from the ones already mentioned.

Yeah, at no time was I trying to single you out, Eva. I just thought the quote interesting and relevant in general terms.

Some from this annotated list fit:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...