Historical Romance Book Club discussion

Discussion thread for the First BOTM of April, 2020. Please remember to use the spoiler tags when necessary! (Please see 'some html is ok' for instructions.)

Happy Reading!

Beast


The Beauty

An exquisite American heiress, Louise Vandermeer is beautiful, brilliant...and bored—which is why she has agreed to a daring adventure: to travel across the ocean to marry an aristocrat abroad. Rumor has it her intended is a hideous cad—a grim prospect that propels her into a passionate, reckless affair with a compelling stranger she never sees in the light of day.

The Beast

Though scarred by a childhood illness, Charles d'Harcourt has successfully wooed Europe's most sophisticated beauties. For a lark, he contrived to travel incognito on his own fiancée's ship—and seduce the young chit in utter darkness. But the rake's prank backfired. It was he who was smitten—while the hot-tempered Lulu, now his wife, loves only her shipboard lover, unaware it was d'Harcourt all the time! And Charles will never have her heart—unless he can open her eyes to the prince who hides within.

Yes, I'm going to read this one too. It will be my first by this author. BBL.

This will be my first by this author too. There seem to be a lot of one star ratings, but I love a Beauty and the Beast retelling. I definitely plan to join in next month.

I plan to join in on this one too. I really enjoyed Bliss recently, but I think this one is a bit polarizing.

This one got so many people hating it that I am definitely in! Probably going to start reading today :)

Im in on this one

Me too! Might start a little early depending on another group... But I'll be discussing here too

I will be joining in this read. I also have this for a Romance Across The Ages Challenge read.

I hope to start some time today. Interesting that it's so polarising. I've never read this author before, so going to keep an open mind.

I plan to listen, but I have to finish my current audio book first.

Mariana wrote: "I plan to listen, but I have to finish my current audio book first."

I didn’t realize it was in audio, hmm. Might consider that. I can hardly focus on reading lately :(

Joanna Loves Reading wrote: "Mariana wrote: "I plan to listen, but I have to finish my current audio book first."

I didn’t realize it was in audio, hmm. Might consider that. I can hardly focus on reading lately :("

Yeah, I found it in RBdigital.

I have started to read this book. Came across a word, which I had to look up. AMBERGIS which means waxy substance produced by sperm whales, used in perfume manufacture.
On chapter 7. and just started to get into the story. Don't like the catty mistress, could be firework with her.

I also have not read anything by Judith Ivory so I am very curious. But I won’t get the chance until later. I have a feeling this is an author who is not afraid to push the conventions.

I have started, and read the first four chapters. It's been stated a few times that the hero is self-absorbed and vain. Hmm. Not my favourite personality traits in a character. I'm intrigued to see why he is considered so 'ugly' and why he's (view spoiler)[blind in one eye (hide spoiler)] We'll see....

I liked the scene in Chapter 3 where (view spoiler)[the hero is accidentally forced to listen at close quarters to his intended flirting with another man. (hide spoiler)] There are some layers to the scene, and I hope that will be the case with the entire book, too.

The perfume-making stuff is only moderately interesting to me, and I hope it doesn't form too much of a part of the book.

Shaz, I agree, I don't like the mistress either.

Darbella wrote: "Petra, you are correct. Beast is a very clever story and it has the huge age difference for the Botm trope. It is not just a Beauty and Beast story. It is different/unusual."

Yes, this one was nominated for fairy-tale retelling too, wasn't it? (But it didn't win).

Judith Ivory engages the senses, here it's perfume, and it is layered. She's doing more than exposition in her choices and perfume-and this book could definitely shock me at times!

I'll be lurking around....

Yes, the description of the wedding night jasmine was lovely. I haven't read Chapter 5 yet.

I am on chapter 16. They have now just arrived in France. From her beloved Pasha to her Prince.

Ooh you guys are racing forward. I need to do some catching up! *averts eyes from comments about sections I haven't read yet*

Started and I am immediately impressed. The books begging with Charles Baudelaire’s poem.

well, this is an interesting book. I think it's the first romance I read where I don't particularly like either of characters. I suppose they will grow (I think they both need to grow up actually, age difference or not Charles is no better than a teenager with self assurance issues) and their love will somehow improve them both but in the first part they are just ... deserving each other, I suppose. It's bad that (view spoiler)[Charles keeps a mistress and goes all over in order to be with her but it's not much better that Lulu goes around kissing every young man who seems remotely interesting - I think she might be a little worse than her betrothed, at least he sticks to one lover, uses protection and apparently has even offered to marry Pia but she wouldn't leave her husband. (hide spoiler)]

I enjoyed the Petard Chapters, Part 2. Now on the Beast Chapters, Part 3. At the moment they are both annoying me. ( Feel like giving them both a kick up the bum) lol

Darbella wrote: "Jan, go Jan go -so you won't have to avert those eyes. :)"

Ha ha ha. It's cool and windy outside today so a good excuse to do some reading. I've picked Beast up again and read a couple more chapters, 5 and 6. I like the writer's style. Again I am enjoying the layers present in the characters' interactions.

Chapter 5. Louise's reaction to the jasmine twig was funny. (view spoiler)[The scene with her seasick parents is helping me as a reader get to know Louise's character. I'm trying to be sympathetic and see inside her and why she is the way she is. Her youth and inexperience certainly account for a lot of her attitude towards life. I like her independent spirit and her desire for a more interesting life, which she isn't afraid to go and seek. Yet she is still compliant with her parents' wishes e.g. she recognises the validity of marrying a well-off, intelligent, powerful man. OK, she wants him to be handsome too. But remember how young she is. It's natural to want that.

I was interested in the reference to the (real life) character Consuela Vanderbilt, who married the Duke of Marlborough. I read a kind of fictionalised version of Consuela's story so I know a little about it. Her mother (or the fictional one at least) was absolutely appalling in her all-consuming desire to marry her daughter to the highest bidder. Any duke will do. To me, Louise's parents are depicted as much kinder and more down-to-earth. Of course they want that for their daughter, but they are not vicious or manipulative (so far!) BTW the book I referred to was My Last Duchess which was interesting on one level, but too tepid in the romance department. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 6 (view spoiler)[I found the breakfast scene interesting, with Louise unknowingly seated beside Harcourt's mistress. The conversation between them was fascinating, along with the laser eyes from Pia, and her repeated comments about Louise's extreme youth. Jealousy? I like that Louise, although young, can stand up for herself, and her statement about her loneliness was quite poignant. (hide spoiler)]

I will read on!

There is a lot of reference in this book to the beauty found in the ugly and the ugliness of beauty - for one there is the ongoing obsession with ambergris and its transformation from whale indigestion to something precious and then there is Charles Baudelarie, the poet who innovated lyrical writing by bringing in the 'aesthetic of the ugly'. His famous poetry volume is called "Les Fleurs du Mal", translating into "The Flowers of Bad" and his essays praised this sort of finding beauty where it was universally believed to be absent. He actually had a lot of detractors in his time because his view was so revolutionary. Anyway, the point is there are a lot of really transparent metaphors in this book, all pointing to the fact that, at times ugly can be beautiful (that's Charles in his good moments) and beautiful can be ugly (Louise when she's a little spoiled shrew).

Ana and Darbella love how you guys put it all together with Charles Baudelaire. I didn’t think about it this way.
I am so glad I’m reading this book because it’s full of hidden poetry and ideas on beauty in a unexpected places. It seemed to compass life experience in general.

Regarding the story I’m on chapter 16 and I feel upset at Charles but I am also cheering for him. Oh the complexities.

Darbella wrote: "Jan, [spoilers removed]Thanks for sharing.
Ana, I did a quick google search on Charles Baudelarie but your above thread is so much more interesting than the limited details that I had skimmed. Tha..."

Oh yes, this is fantastic Ana!

Second half of this book . I found Charles and Louise both annoying. This story started off good. Once they arrived in France the story just did not keep my interest. The author seemed to drag the ending out to long.

Thanks for your interesting comments Ana. While being (so far) an enjoyable HR on one level, clearly there are added depths to the writing, which add extra interest. I like that.

And I do vaguely remember having to recite (in French) a Baudelaire poem when I studied high school French. I doubt I really understood the full meaning of the poem at the time though LOL. Sadly I can't remember which poem.

I'm still only 26% through - finished chapter 9.

Chapter 7-8(view spoiler)[I dislike Pia's blatant hypocrisy in demanding that Charles dump Louise, even though she is still married. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 9(view spoiler)[I feel relieved now that Charles has broken it off with Pia. He's now starting to feel really attracted to Louise despite her youth. I think he admires her feistiness and her independence of thought, not just her pretty body. It doesn't feel creepy to me. Although young, Louise is a woman who has been starting to explore her own sexual feelings even before she met Charles. (hide spoiler)]

Shaz wrote: "Second half of this book . I found Charles and Louise both annoying. This story started off good. Once they arrived in France the story just did not keep my interest. The author seemed to drag the ..."

Oh dear. I hate it when that happens, Shaz. I haven't gotten that far yet. We'll see whether or not it can hold my interest all the way through. Sorry it didn't turn out that great for you in the end.

Finished: Also loved it😊 and too thought it ended too soon. I had the opportunity to do the audio and the narration was done very well. Loved the learning curve on fragrances too.

Pia: (view spoiler)[ irritated me thoroughly (hide spoiler)]
Lulu: (view spoiler)[ at times seemed more mature than her 18 years and thought she dragged her short but brief love affair way too long (hide spoiler)]
Charles: (view spoiler)[ all of his 25 years...loved the duality of his characters (hide spoiler)]

@Shaz...sorry you didn't enjoy but only half.

I’ve finished and have very much enjoyed the book. However it left something unsettled within me. I agree with you Darbella the time is very collapsed and cheers to Ms Ivory for pulling it off.
First part of the book (view spoiler)[ everything was evolving so very fast. I couldn’t believe that Charles kept going with his ruse and I couldn’t believe Louise was happily playing along. But I can understand it. Louise in her core is deeply adventurous person who met her match in Charles. But then he leaves her and she is shattered. I would be too if my lover left me like this without even a word. (hide spoiler)]
Second part of the book when they are in France
(view spoiler)[ I was happy that Charles suffered as he did because what he done was very shady. I didn’t expect him to keep up the ruse for so long though. The longer he was avoiding the truth, the more upset at him I grew. I wanted it to be revealed much sooner. I didn’t understand how Louise didn’t recognize his voice. But I did understand how she was so much in love with her pasha that she couldn’t stand anyone else to touch her. I was happy when she stood up for herself on the wedding day.
However my big issue was that Louise fell in love with Charles because she saw him as this tolerant, generous person who is willing to tolerate anything she will do. While for Charles it was more of expression of his guilt for what he had done, coupled with his having advantage of knowing her already. It was as if she fell in love with a mirage.
I think author did an amazing job expressing all the complexities of emotions and the depth of hurt that can be felt. But the unreveling was not enough for me. I think I needed more time for Louise to be aware of the truth and fall in love with Charles that way. (hide spoiler)]

Overall this was fantastic captivating book full of layers and comments on beauty.
I specially appreciated a heroine who always had all men on her plate. A heroine who is aware of the effect she has on them and I especially preciate the author recognizing how uncomfortable that must feel. How objectifying. For that and many other nuances that Judith Ivory included in here, I am thankful.

Wow, some of you have raced through this one. I'm taking my time, but still enjoying it. I'm still (view spoiler)[on the ship LOL. (hide spoiler)]

I'm now in the second section of the book, The Petard. I'm part way through Chapter 12, and Louise and d'Harcourt are (view spoiler)[ in the middle of their wild fling. I'm both surprised and not surprised by Louise. On one level she is a gently-reared virgin, but on another level she is adventurous and has previously kissed and fooled around a little with other men before. I'm not sure how I feel about their fling. Charles is caught in the trap of hiding his identity. I feel for him in his mental debates on whether it's best to reveal his identity or not. Hoist by his own petard, indeed. (hide spoiler)]

I like that this book doesn't feel cliched. My first book by this author, and so far I like her original 'voice'.

I finally started. I was trying to finish another book first, but it wasn’t grabbing me.

I am through the first chapter. That’s an engaging start! Intrigued to continue.

I'm up to Chapter 15. Still taking my time through it. Yes, Joanna, the start was engaging.

Well. I finished yesterday after racing through the second half of the book. 3.5 to 4 stars from me. I really liked it.

I actually found the second half better than the first half. It was complicated by the messy and confusing situation our two lovers found themselves in, but the whole setting of belle époque France, the prince's family and the hangers-on, the perfume business etc etc was very interesting to me.

I liked the way the author unwound the messy knot that Charles and Louise had gotten themselves tied up in. I liked that (view spoiler)[ Louise worked out who Charles was on her own, then waited for him to fess up. I didn't mind the surprise pregnancy - I was half-expecting it after their antics on the ship. And clearly, both of them wanted this baby anyway. (hide spoiler)]

The setting in Grasse appealed to me, with the fields of flowers grown for perfume. I've read a lovely CR series set in Grasse, also about the perfume industry, and it was like a nice reprise of that. (La Vie en Roses series by Laura Florand.)

I thought the quality of the writing was excellent, and there were interesting layers to the plot and characters. I liked that it wasn't a cliche HR read.

I did feel uncomfortable all along with Charles' personal vanity. It's not a quality I admire. The writer made him sympathetic and understandable, and he had many good qualities. But he wasn't the perfect hero for me and maybe that's why I didn't go five stars. But I did find it a really good read. It worked out to be a good choice for a BOTM. Lots to think and talk about.

Now I can go back and read everyone's spoilers LOL.

Darbella wrote: "Jan, I wonder if Beast was the inspiration for the author to write about perfume in La Vie en Roses since Beast was written much earlier?
I enjoyed the perfume parts too. It was interesting seeing ..."

Maybe? Florand did write a very successful series before this one, set in Paris, about the highly competitive world of chocolate makers. La Vie en Roses is kind of a natural follow on to that, but yeah, she may well have read Beast. *shrugs* Who knows?

I enjoyed the perfume parts of Beast more than I expected to, actually, considering I rarely wear perfume because most perfume makes me sneeze/ get hay fever. I like that it was an essential part of the book, but didn't dominate or annoy.

I am through Part 1, will probably read more later today.

I like the writing style. It flows so well and good word choices. Since most or all that started this have finished, I am just leaving my impressions as I go, then I will respond to others. I just don’t want to spoil it for myself.

Setting wise this is very intriguing. The only other book I can think of that has a good chunk on a steamliner is Beguiling the Beauty. There’s some other similarities too so far. Great beauty, romance under a guise.

I am not thinking much on whether I like the MCs but I like how they’re being presented. Their human failings, which the main one seems to be vanity, gets in the way. This is one of the harder failings to read about and buy into for me in a book. But I think it’s being done well. I always feel like someone being so beautiful that they stop traffic is a bit hard to conceive when reading. I don’t picture it well. Not that I think it’s necessarily unbelievable but I have difficulty picturing, it ends up being rather generic to me. Until more descriptions are given at least. Not sure why I went on that tangent but there it is.

Ultimately I like how their romance is contained at the moment, not much outside forces. I like how they’ve intrigued each other and keep surprising each other. This is going to go a long way in convincing me later, I suspect.

Joanna Loves Reading wrote: " The only other book I can think of that has a good chunk on a steamliner is Beguiling the Beauty. There’s some other similarities too so far. Great beauty, romance under a guise."

Yes!! I immediately thought of Beguiling the Beauty when I started reading about their affair in the dark on the ship. I'm guessing Thomas had read Beast, but admittedly hers is a very different book.

I always feel like someone being so beautiful that they stop traffic is a bit hard to conceive when reading. I don’t picture it well.

I tried to picture someone like the late Princess Diana - someone who draws all eyes and who no one can stop talking about or conjecturing about. Someone with incredible charisma as well as looks.

But I know what you mean. It can be hard to imagine the hero or heroine sometimes.

Darbella wrote: "Joanna, great points. Interesting thoughts on beauty. Opposite for me, I would much rather read about a beautiful heroine than an ugly one any day. I do not mind the heroine not being perfect. Kinda of like Connie Brockway did in the Others Guys Bride--the heroine had what the family loving called a "Florentine" nose. The author then gave her beautiful eyes to counterbalance her Florentine nose. "

I'm rereading the Bedwyn series by Mary Balogh. Five of the six Bedwyn siblings (each has their own book BTW) are described as having the 'aristocratic' Bedwyn nose - read prominent or somewhat large LOL.

I liked that in Freyja's book, Slightly Scandalous, Freyja is described as having the prominent family nose, and some call her ugly, but of course the hero sees her real self and grows to find her beautiful (in his eyes). This is an example of a book where a less than visually perfect heroine still really works. In spite of 'the nose', she is very much her own person, someone who is full of personality and actually quite sexy too.

But I agree with you - I usually prefer the MCs to be attractive too. And I have to admit, I'm not usually keen on the 'plump' heroine. I read for escapism, not to read about a character battling the bulge LOL.

Back to the Beast discussion. I liked that Louise was beautiful, but wouldn't have minded if she wasn't quite so perfect to look at, as long as she had that vital charisma - an 'it' girl if you will.

Darbella wrote: "Jan, I went to Florand's website to see if she mentioned Beast being an inspiration. Sadly, she did not. O well, I was just curious. She does mention traveling around the world and when living in P..."

Interesting. I must have a look at her website. She hasn't put any books out for a while and I wouldn't mind reading a new one. She has a very individual and enjoyable writing style. Her heroes are so French and so sexy.

I haven't (yet) read any other Judith Ivory books, but I will consider doing so.

Joanna Loves Reading wrote: " Their human failings, which the main one seems to be vanity, gets in the way. This is one of the harder failings to read about and buy into for me in a book. But I think it’s being done well."

The vanity was something I struggled with a little, too. But yes, it was done well, and the characters felt very human and very real.

Mariana wrote: "Joanna Loves Reading wrote: "Mariana wrote: "I plan to listen, but I have to finish my current audio book first."

I didn’t realize it was in audio, hmm. Might consider that. I can hardly focus on ..."
i'm doing it on RBDigital now.
so, i like the HE-Charles even though he's a rake. I don't care for the HER-Louise, i find her annoying. and quite honestly, i've stopped on chpt 13. is it worth continuing? so far, i'm not really liking it. but i do enjoy new takes on the traditional fairy tales.
anyone else not liking this one?

Jan wrote: "Shaz wrote: "Second half of this book . I found Charles and Louise both annoying. This story started off good. Once they arrived in France the story just did not keep my interest. The author seemed..."

yeah, i like charles but i'm finding louise annoying. i've stopped at chpt 13. (they're still on the ship) should i continue? does it get better?
one big complaint is that we all know the moral of the story of beauty & the beast (about being vain, looking past imperfections & liking people by their actions/personalities, etc.) so does the author really need to keep hammering that in??? how many times does she have to tell us whether or not a character is vain?

Ana wrote: "well, this is an interesting book. I think it's the first romance I read where I don't particularly like either of characters. I suppose they will grow (I think they both need to grow up actually, ..."

agree so i'm wondering if i should continue since i don't like alot of the characters. but sometimes in books, they grow on you & you end up wanting to know what happens. it's a fine line for a writer. as i'm only halfway, i'm not sure if the writer has sufficiently crossed the line positively.

Jenna wrote: "i've stopped on chpt 13. is it worth continuing?"
Hi Jenna. Sorry you're not enjoying this one. Personally I found the second half more enjoyable than the first. Once they landed in France and the story proceeded from there, things seemed to pick up for me. Admittedly, I did like the first half better than you, though. I wasn't keen on Charles' vanity either, but it wasn't a deal-breaker for me.

ok, i'll listen to more tomorrow. i think i'm almost at that point.
i had a feeling it was going to pick up in the middle so thanks for letting me know.

Darbella wrote: "Jenna, Hmmm that is a tough question."

good point. i don't think the age thing mattered to me as that's common in the historical novels. but yeah...it does put a new perspective on the characters when i think of it.

Jenna wrote: "Ana wrote: "well, this is an interesting book. I think it's the first romance I read where I don't particularly like either of characters. I suppose they will grow (I think they both need to grow u..."

I did enjoy the story eventually, what helped me was to think back at how I was at 18 ... they are never going to be two perfectly agreeable and lovable characters but there is beauty in their flaws and I think that's pretty much the point of this book with all its hints to things that don't seem like much (the ambergris for one) but are truly worthy

I finished this book a few days ago but I decided to let it settle a bit before giving my opinion because the first one was "seriously, mrs Ivovry?! pages and pages of waiting for the darn bubble to burst and then it's over THAT fast? What's up with that?". I still believe the ending was a little abrupt (view spoiler)[and I can't believe that Charles did not have the guts to own up to all of it until he had absolutely no choice left. But then again I guess I should have seen it coming when he was to scared to tell his mistress he was getting married. Not really a mature man there. And Louise might just have let him off the hook a little too easy. That 'don't think this means everything is all right " is not convincing when she is just about to make love to him. (hide spoiler)]. All in all it was a good story, different from what I have read before and surely not close as gut wrenching as the other BOTM this April. Shiiish. I am so glad Julia Quinn's new book is due in my mailbox next Tuesday. I need something smooth and luminous right now. But back to Beast, it was memorable. I'll read this author again.