English Mysteries Club discussion

Thanks, Jean. I'm so sorry to hear that!

Adrian wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "I've just started to watch a Basil Rathbone film of Sherlock Holmes, made in 1942 and set in World War II ! It's quite entertaining but I wonder what people think of Sherlock Ho..."

Agreed. And that was my biggest complaint in those movies — that Watson was always played as a doofus. It's just not realistic. He is much better portrayed by Martin Freeman in the current Sherlock series. And I'll be an outlier by saying that at first I was resistant to this program being called Sherlock but I have grown to enjoy it and the concept of it. Benedict Cumberbatch does remind me a lot of the Sherlock as portrayed by Jeremy Brett, which reminds my favorite.

Bionic Jean wrote: "Adrian may be able to fill in more details, but Jeremy Brett had various mental health problems, and was a depressive. He came more and more to identify with the role of Sherlock Holmes, and his family and friends were very worried about this latterly. I seem to remember the last episodes were filmed spasmodically, because of his depression. He committed suicide after he had filmed the final episode. ..."

To be honest Jean, There is not a great deal more I can add to your reply. It was true that he came to associate himself or sink deeper into the role of Sherlock Holmes. Holmes as we know was, with the exception of "That Woman" ( who we will come across in our Buddy Read) quite androgynous and not tempted by women (or men), well Brett was in his own way similar. He was married twice and had two major gay relationships, as if he was unsure of his own sexuality or even if he was like Holmes and almost asexual.
This was quite an intrinsic part of the depression that gnawed away at him more and more over his final years. In addition he did have some major health problems exacerbated by smoking 60+ cigarettes a day, the drugs he was taking for his depression and his rheumatic fever he had as a younger man.
He spoke candidly about his depression which was unusual for his generation, but ultimately died of heart failure due to his diseased and enlarged rheumatic heart.

As an aside he had a number of interesting connections, his mother was a Cadbury (from the chocolate dynasty), he married Anna Massey, herself a famous actress but daughter of the famous Raymond Massey, and his nephew (or cousin ? ) is Martin Clunes. !!!

Adrian wrote: "To be honest Jean, There is not a great deal more I can add to your reply ..."

You've added loads Adrian! So technically, it wasn't suicide? Sorry, I must be remembering the articles in the press at the time. It sounds as though he allowed himself get to the state where he kept collapsing, and would be likely to die. But it's not quite the same, so I'll add an edit to my post. Thanks.

Bionic Jean wrote: "Adrian wrote: "To be honest Jean, There is not a great deal more I can add to your reply ..."

You've added loads Adrian! So technically, it wasn't suicide? Sorry, I must be remembering the article..."

Ha ha, I think as I wrote I remembered more. I think originally everybody thought it had to be suicide as it was known he was so depressed and in a bad way, but ultimately apparently his heart just gave out.
I remember as you said during the filming of the last series despite still smoking he often had to rest for Oxygen, due to the drugs for depression causing his weight to balloon.

Poor man :( And what a legacy he has left us all.

Bionic Jean wrote: "Poor man :( And what a legacy he has left us all."

Yes, I must admit in some ways I felt sorry for him, but then he lived for his acting, both theatre and TV, and as you say, he left us the quintessential Holmes performance.

As well as winning number of TV and theatre awards did anyone know he was lined up to play James Bond after Sean Connery, but eventually turned it down and it was taken up by George Lazenby

I didn't know that! And what a lump of wood George Lazenby turned out to be in comparison :(

I do remember him in the early days, being often chosen as a "the aristocratic one", in British TV dramas, alongside actors like Simon Williams and Nigel Havers. He played D'Artagnan in The Three Musketeers, for instance :)

Has anyone been reading anything by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in the last couple of weeks? He didn't just write Sherlock Holmes stories!

Bionic Jean wrote: "Has anyone been reading anything by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in the last couple of weeks? He didn't just write Sherlock Holmes stories!"

I haven't read anything by him that recently, but I took part in another group's common read of The White Company back in January (the same one Rita mentioned in message 10); it got five stars from me, and I hope sometime to read the prequel, Sir Nigel. Then too, I'm planning to do a buddy read of His Last Bow, starting around the beginning of July.

Bionic Jean wrote: "Has anyone been reading anything by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in the last couple of weeks? He didn't just write Sherlock Holmes stories!"

I have read things like The Lost World, Horror of the Heights, Terror of Blue John Gap

What I do want to read, that I treated myself to is Dangerous Work: Diary of an Arctic Adventure. Which is the story of Sir Arthur as a young medical student joining an arctic whaler as the ships doctor. I have been saving it for a special occasion.

Ah, that reminds me that I want to listen to the audiobook of The Lost World this month!

Leslie wrote: "Ah, that reminds me that I want to listen to the audiobook of The Lost World this month!"

I'm sure if you get a good narrator it would be really good.

Just a reminder that the continuing buddy read of all the Sherlock Holmes stories, hosted by Adrian, is under way right now! It's taken at a steady pace, and has started just this month - perhaps two stories in so far - so there's plenty of time to join in and read every single one if you like! LINK HERE

Bionic Jean wrote: "Just a reminder that the continuing buddy read of all the Sherlock Holmes stories, hosted by Adrian, is under way right now! It's taken at a steady pace, and has started just this month - perhaps t..."

Thanks Jean. Yes exactly, it's never too late to join in with this buddy read. We are literally 12 days into an 18 month read of all of the ACD Holmes short stories and novels. As you say we are taking it at a relaxing pace, 2 months per novel/book of short stories, and we only started 12 days ago.
Also if people want to just dip in an out or even comment on books they have read previously, when we get to them, that is fine also, just remember the spoiler tag please.

Adrian wrote: "So people have mentioned obviously the Benedict Cumberbatch modern version of Sherlock, but who else do people like as Sherlock?

I've never been shy in saying that to me Joan Hickson is Miss Marpl..."

My first encounter with Sherlock Holmes (I said that as if I have met the man haha) was when I watched Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes; so I always throw hearts at Downey's portrayal of Holmes. BUT, I think the most original version of Holmes was played by Jeremy Brett.

Rosemarie wrote: "I agree. Jeremy Brett is Sherlock Holmes!"

Agreed!!!

Monique wrote: "Adrian wrote: "So people have mentioned obviously the Benedict Cumberbatch modern version of Sherlock, but who else do people like as Sherlock?

I've never been shy in saying that to me Joan Hickso..."

Adrian wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "Just a reminder that the continuing buddy read of all the Sherlock Holmes stories, hosted by Adrian, is under way right now! It's taken at a steady pace, and has started just th..."

I have to agree that Joan Hickson really nailed Miss Marple, and of course, Jeremy Brett was the quintessential Sherlock. I have enjoyed the interpretation by Benedict Cumberbatch but Brett was the best.

It's not too late to join in for the final works in Adrian's fantastic Sherlock Holmes buddy read :)

I've just watched a very old Basil Rathbone film: "Terror by Night", set on a train and about the theft of a diamond. It was good fun, but oh my, how we have been spoilt with modern interpretations.

The leads were OK, but the supporting cast weren't so good. In particular, with one well-dressed young lady I couldn't tell if her accent was supposed to be Cockney or Australian! Goodness knows what her real accent was.

Bionic Jean wrote: "It's not too late to join in for the final works in Adrian's fantastic Sherlock Holmes buddy read :)

I've just watched a very old Basil Rathbone film: "Terror by Night", set on a train and about t..."

I like this movie, mainly because it involves Holmes and trains, an irresistible combo! I do rather dislike the portrayal of Watson in all of the Rathbone movies though. He is no more than a bumbling fool, and I don't see any reason why Holmes would tolerate him, let alone allow him to assist in investigations.

I feel the same way, Tara.

Jumping into this discussion because I am a huge fan of the Sherlock Holmes stories, and am in another group - Baker Street Irregulars - and have been reading several of the anthologies of "new" Sherlock Holmes stories put out by MX Publishing. Many of the anthologies have themes, and some of the stories are really good.
I am not a real fan of Doyle's other novels, but he wrote several very good short stories of suspense - Lady Sannox and The Brazilian Cat were really creepy.
As for Jeremy Brett, there is an excellent book called "Bending The Willow" by David Stuart Davies, published about 20 years ago but it is due to come back into print. It is an account of the making of the Granada Sherlock Holmes series with Jeremy Brett. Brett is considered the definitive Holmes. One comment said he committed suicide which is not accurate - he had rheumatic fever as a kid and was a heavy smoker, and near the end of his life, was on medications for his bipolar disease that can strain the heart (and add weight - you see it in later episodes). He died of heart failure.

Welcome to the group Barbara, and do introduce yourself in the welcome thread, if you like :)

Your post was interesting. Here's the link to the book: Bending the Willow: Jeremy Brett as Sherlock Holmes by David Stuart Davies everyone, if you'd like to read it.

We have covered Jeremy Brett's death quite fully in this thread. Adrian is our expert on all things Sherlock Holmes, and has just completed leading a 2 year challenge for us, to read all the original stories by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

Yes technically his death was due to heart failure, exacerbated by his physical condition and the drugs he had to take. But it would be an omission to not say that he had suffered for depression for a very long time, and had begun to identify with the role so much that one has to wonder at his frame of mind towards the end of his life. It is very sad.

Do you recommend any particular ones of these "new" Sherlock Holmes stories, or their authors? Are they written by English authors, so that we could read them in the group?

I do think it would be worth finding a copy of "Bending the Willow" when it is reprinted. I know the original book is well done with a lot of great photographs and a complete account of the series through Brett's death. The author had become acquainted with, and interviewed Brett, in the course of the making of the series.
The authors of the MX anthologies - there are more than 30 now - are an international group, most of them already have something published in the Sherlockian genre. Some of my favorite stories in the books I was able to get (they are expensive because the proceeds go to a charity) were written by David Marcum (who also edits), Derrick Belanger, Arthur Hall, Tracy Revels, Jane Rubino, Geri Schear.

Great! Here are the links:

David Marcum
Derrick Belanger
Arthur Hall
Tracy Revels
Jane Rubino
Geri Schear

I have read Bending the Willow: Jeremy Brett as Sherlock Holmes as Jeremy Brett as Jean knows is one of my literary acting heroes and Sherlock Holmes would almost certainly be my speciality subject on Mastermind !

But it is many years so I think I need to get around to reading it again soon. Thanks for the reminder Barbara.

And also a big thanks for some of those names. I have seen some of the series about Sherlock in HG Wells world and Edgar Allen Poe world but its good to know that some of them are worth reading !

Bionic Jean wrote: "Welcome to the group Barbara, and do introduce yourself in the welcome thread, Do you recommend any particular ones of these "new" Sherlock Holmes stories, or their authors? Are they written by English authors, so that we could read them in the group?

I think Geri Schear is Irish, I know Marcum and Rubino are Americans, don't know about the others. MX is a British publisher - I think they only do Sherlockian work, including some non fiction. Hard to pick favorites because I'm always afraid I'm going to leave something or someone out but a few in MX anthology library:
David Marcum: The Two Different Women; The Rhayader Legacy
Derrick Belanger: The Tale of the First Adventure; The Folly of Age
Arthur Hall: The Adventure of the Phantom Coachman; The Disappearing Prisoner
Tracy Revels: The Adventure of the Empty Manger; The Adventure of Merridew of Abominable Memory
Jane Rubino: To The Manor Boundl; The Case of the Secret Samaritan
Geri Schear: Harbinger of Death; The Invisible Assassin

Thanks!

Barbara wrote: "I think Geri Schear is Irish, I know Marcum and Rubino are Americans, don't know about the others. MX is a British publisher - I think they only do Sherlockian work, including some non fiction. Hard to pick favorites because I'm always afraid I'm going to leave something or someone out but a few in MX anthology library:..."

Thanks for that info Barbara, that is really useful.

I just read (knew it but sort of forgot) that the Sherlock Holmes stories all go into public domain in '23. This applies to the US because I think they were in public domain in Europe and Canada for some time. There were a lot of disputes and even lawsuits about Conan Doyle's estate and who had the right to use the character and under what conditions. Apparently it was one of those literary estates managed by an attorney or attorneys - I think Doyle had no grandchildren and his last child died in the 90s.

Yes, all Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's stories have been in the public domain here in the UK since the year 2000 (i.e. 70 years after his death).

Thank you for clarifying the position for our American members Barbara.

Hello! My name is Todd Ide and I am working on my dissertation (it is on how multimodal elements can alter meaning in digital literature).

I am trying to find a digital copy (supposedly they were available for download) of The Sherlock Holmes Experience: A Vook Double Feature that includes two of Conan Doyle’s short stories from The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes. The Man with the Twisted Lip and The Adventure of the Speckled Band. The description of it states that these stories are brought to life with videos that tell of the people and places behind the stories. They provide a glimpse into the world of the famous detective Sherlock Holmes and what inspired the innovative crime fighting series written by Conan Doyle. Richard Lancelyn Green edited the vook (video and book).

It was apparently available at one time as a free download (I originally bought a copy, but at the time, there was no way to download) AND was available in Kindle as well. Of course, I can’t find either currently.

I am hoping that someone here might have it in Kindle or downloaded and willing to help me. Thank you for your time and assistance.

Todd

Hi Todd, I checked all my usual online book and video haunts for your Sherlock Holmes Experience with no success. I’d wish you luck in finding this. Even Open Library and Internet Archive were no help at all. There was an old broken link on YouTube with just a preview.

I don't know whether anyone else has come across, but released for Christmas, here in the UK, is a three part documentary on Sir Arthur and Sherlock Holmes.
It is written and hosted by the wonderful Lucy Worsley, who is a renowned and well respected British historian, and is still I think the Head curator of British Royal Palaces. (I know she was responsible for the recent renovation of Kensington Palace).
She is responsible for numerous history programmes on BBC (and British Channel 5) (from Tudors to the Spanish Armada) as well as recent documentaries on Agatha Christie , British love of Murders and Jane Austen to name but a few.

Anyway for those who have access to BBC (either live or on catchup), I thoroughly recommend, as I have just watched all 3 episodes, brilliant !!

Great - will look out for that, thank you!

Edit - just to add:

It's called "Killing Sherlock" and started live on Sun 10th Dec.

Thanks Jean.

The BBC website says “This is the story of a power struggle between two men - one fictional, and one real. In one corner is the master of crime – the greatest detective who never lived, Sherlock Holmes. In the other is writer, physician and spiritualist leader Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Lucy Worsley explores the extraordinary love-hate relationship between author and creation.”

And it is really good, typical Worsley

Adrian wrote: "I don't know whether anyone else has come across, but released for Christmas, here in the UK, is a three part documentary on Sir Arthur and Sherlock Holmes.
It is written and hosted by the wonderfu..."

Thanks for the tip. I'll look out for it.

Hi, I am a huge Agatha Christie fan and am interested in reading a Sherlock Holmes this summer but am not sure where to start. What book would you recommend?

As a kid, my introduction to the Holmes canon was the first short story collection, The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes. That created my lifelong interest in the character, so it served me pretty well as a starting point, and I think would for an adult reader as well. It provides several short adventures with a variety of scenarios, which allows you to get to know Holmes and Watson in a range of circumstances; and the short story format perhaps allows for a more flexible reading schedule than a novel would.

Werner has recommended the first collection Peyton, and many people think some of his best Sherlock Holmes stories are in there. The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes contains 12 stories, and every single one is superb! I'm not sure how you read (on paper or e-books) but each of these stories is also available separately, if you want to give one a try. I particularly like The Red-Headed League and The Speckled Band from this collection 😊

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was writing quite a bit before Agatha Christie of course, so his writing is rather more leisurely. Both authors have fiendishly complicated plots though 😊

Altogether Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote 62 stories about Sherlock Holmes, which includes 4 novels and 58 short stories. It's generally thought that the short stories are better than the novels, but if you prefer novels, then I would suggest The Hound of the Baskervilles.

I hope you enjoy him and do come back and tell us. Adrian, do you have anything else to suggest? Or anyone?

Peyton - Also, do come and introduce yourself LINK HERE and - perfect timing - we are reading Evil Under the Sun by Agatha Christie as our group read right now! We'd love you to join in LINK HERE if you like.😊

Bionic Jean wrote: "It's generally thought that the short stories are better than the novels, but if you prefer novels, then I would suggest The Hound of the Baskervilles."

For whatever it's worth, The Hound of the Baskervilles is definitely my favorite Holmes novel, too!

Peyton wrote: "Hi, I am a huge Agatha Christie fan and am interested in reading a Sherlock Holmes this summer but am not sure where to start. What book would you recommend?"

Hi Peyton, and thanks Jean for “copying” me in.
Personally , and I think most people will agree, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was better at writing short stories, than most other recognised crime writers, and also better than he was at writing novels.

Personally I am a big fan of The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes as it includes the brilliant Final Problem .

However I have to agree with Werner, in that the novel The Hound of the Baskervilles is simply marvelous.