The Mystery, Crime, and Thriller Group discussion

Justin wrote: "Just started The Killer Inside Me. Wow."

Ayeeee! Whatever you do, don't give away any spoilers. I haven't read it yet!

Nancy wrote: " to me it's way more of a slow-burning horror film. .."

Could be characterized either way I reckon.

Meanwhile, yes--I've seen 'Peeping Tom'. Ack, I sure felt 'doomed' myself, for having purchased a ticket to that strange, gruesome story :(

(view spoiler)[I despised the character so much I couldn't hardly wait for him to get his comeuppance (hide spoiler)]

How about 'Targets', the early student film by Bogdonavich, starring Boris Karloff?

Feliks wrote: "Nancy wrote: " to me it's way more of a slow-burning horror film. .."

Could be characterized either way I reckon.

I've seen 'Peeping Tom'. Ack, I sure felt 'doomed' myself, for having purchased a..."

Well, here's where we differ. And I'm going to spoiler this in case someone's actually interested in seeing Peeping Tom. (view spoiler)[ Yeah, the guy in Peeping Tom did grotesque things, but I felt sorry for him because of what his father had done to him all of his life. (hide spoiler)]

You mean you never heard of Floyd Collins?

Have you read Falling Angel? Wonderful cross between a noir and an occult thriller.

I like reading a good Noir every once in a while but find them quite challenging to write. I don't know maybe it's just me but I find that I have to be in the mood to write one and it has to be intricate and precise.

Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "Have you read Falling Angel? Wonderful cross between a noir and an occult thriller."

Right. Maybe someone will start labeling books like this "occult noir." Or maybe "horror noir." This one could be "Voodoo noir." It is a fun escape read, though.

I just hate that there seems to be a "noir" label for everything. I recently read a novel billed as snow noir.

Justin wrote: "I like reading a good Noir every once in a while but find them quite challenging to write. I don't know maybe it's just me but I find that I have to be in the mood to write one and it has to be int..."

I would think that to do it right, it would have to take a long time. Atmosphere would be the main component.

I'm not sure what noir means any more. It used to mean a detective novel that had a pretty direct sexual componenet to it. Mike Hammer was sort of soft to medium noir in that his characters generally weren't hookers or drug dealers, but there was some (as I remember) fairly detailed sex.

As a writer I think it means, "not sure where to shelve this book."
I write with a style that is "nourish" according to some reviewers. They seem to believe that short, punchy sentences and gritty violence are noir.

Seems like a genrewith a broad and confusing definition. Personally, I'd prefer to be in the thriller or detective genre. Noir right now seems to be a downer type description to me.

Right now everything seems to be have a noir label on it.

--sigh--

I just finished The Killer Inside Me by Jim Johnson. Excellent.

Right now I'm reading By Reason of Insanity by Shane Stevens. Another good read.

And at the same time, I'm reading Impulse by Michael Weaver. I think this would be classified as noir. Not positive. Good, creepy read.

These books might be difficult to find, especially Impulse.

Patricia wrote: "I just finished The Killer Inside Me by Jim Johnson. Excellent.

Right now I'm reading By Reason of Insanity by Shane Stevens. Another good read.

And at the same time, I'm reading Impulse by Micha..."

Jim Thompson's The Killer Inside Me is a great noir story.

Leonard wrote: "Patricia wrote: "I just finished The Killer Inside Me by Jim Johnson. Excellent.

Right now I'm reading By Reason of Insanity by Shane Stevens. Another good read.

And at the same time, I'm reading..."

On my reading list for 2016. He's another author I can read only in small doses because he's so disturbing.

Upon searching crimes that took place in Shanghai I came across this great, very insightful and informative article on Shanghai Noir which talks about film and literature.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internatio...

Justin wrote: "Upon searching crimes that took place in Shanghai I came across this great, very insightful and informative article on Shanghai Noir which talks about film and literature.

http://www.theatlantic.c..."
Good article

It mentions a great book, too: Midnight in Peking: How the Murder of a Young Englishwoman Haunted the Last Days of Old China.

Nancy wrote: "It mentions a great book, too: Midnight in Peking: How the Murder of a Young Englishwoman Haunted the Last Days of Old China."

Read it; derserving of all its awards and worth reading

Richard wrote: "Nancy wrote: "It mentions a great book, too: Midnight in Peking: How the Murder of a Young Englishwoman Haunted the Last Days of Old China."

Read it; derserving of all its awards a..."

Agreed.

One of the original noir writers, Raymond Chandler, was actually interviewed by Ian Fleming, author of the James Bond books. Here's the link:
http://bit.ly/1NAkp4q

Well, I tend to think of Jack Kerley's Carson Ryder series as a noir books starting with The Hundredth Man, Fascinating book.

And Loren D. Estleman's Amos Walker, PI books in the 'hard-boiled' noir.

Not sure where to put F. Paul Wilson's books as they usually have a supernatural kind of element, but are noir.

For another very traditional noir author, try Andrew Vachss' Burke books.

Myles wrote: "I'm not sure what noir means any more. It used to mean a detective novel that had a pretty direct sexual componenet to it. " Post #110

I consider the origins of noir to be rooted in the works of Dashiell Hammett and later (and better), Raymond Chandler. Chandler, in articles about his own writing and on detective novels in general, eschews putting sexual situations as it detracts from the story. While there is certain sexual tension implied in The Big Sleep or The Lady in the Lake, jumping in the sack with a client or witness was strictly off limits.

Granted, later writers, lacking the talent of either of the true originators, incorporated sex to sell. The result of this is the genre has devolved into main characters wondering where there next drink is, are drug addicted, sex addicted, given to instant gratification and impulse behavior, or fraught with guilt of domestic infidelity. Hell, even Sherlock Holmes was a drug addict.

That said, I recognize most of Chandler's detectives, were heavy drinkers but it was significant to the times during and after Prohibition. Also, it had a purpose. Chandler did more than write detective stories. He created an underworld that lived just under the skin of, and out of sight, of established society. This was a world of corruption, gambling, prostitution, and graft. His detectives needed to walk in both worlds and the boozing was part of that second skin.

I'll stick my neck out and say Robert Crais' Elvis Cole books and Parker's Spenser for Hire books are examples of a lesser plateau of noir. They both have 'molls', respectable ones but unnecessary and they both have bad ass partners to do the dirty work. Both are impulsive but have some degree of sophistication.

Michael Connoly's Bosch books are great antecedents to early noir, Chandler in particular. Still, Bosch has family problems and guilt at being a part-time father. Good, but yet another flawed main character.

Dennis Lehane does a pretty good job in Gone, Baby Gone and Mystic River but the first reprises the bad ass sidekick that does the dirty work. The main character in Mystic River is an emotional mess but its from trying to live in two different worlds and I'll excuse it.

I definitely agree that what we think of as noir in fiction began with writers like Hammett and Chandler, along with James M Cain and later Jim Thompson.

Although as I understand the term actually originated with French critics who were talking about Film Noir, movies like The Maltese Falcon, the Big Sleep, etc.

These days noir has come to mean a lot of different things to different people. To me, it's about a certain dark sensibility.

For me a successful noir novel has a deep, existential component that takes the focus off of crime solving and onto people. One of my favorites that is never mentioned is Dorothy Hughes The Expendable Man. What people call Scandinavian noir is mostly involved with detection and crime solving -- the Harry Hole series by Nesbo is not noir by any stretch. They're thrillers with an angsty cop or two.

Ken wrote: "Myles wrote: "I'm not sure what noir means any more. It used to mean a detective novel that had a pretty direct sexual componenet to it. " Post #110

I consider the origins of noir to be rooted in ..."

What I like about Chandler's novels is that his Los Angeles has corruption in all walks of life, not just the city's underbelly. If you look carefully at his books, most of them show that the "pillars of society" can be just as bad, and in some cases even worse than, the actual crooks. That's apparent from the beginning.

Nancy wrote: "For me a successful noir novel has a deep, existential component that takes the focus off of crime solving and onto people. One of my favorites that is never mentioned is Dorothy Hughes [book:The E..."

I agree

Not to flog my own work but one of my books is my take on updating Chandler's Los Angeles to contemporary times and moving the action south to the OC Gold Coast.
Not a whodunit by any means. I was more interested in the setting and the characters rather than doling out clues. Actually, I made the main character the killer. No ethical Philip Marlowe for me. Second one is about halfway done.
I started writing it and got about halfway through when the Dexter TV series became popular. Beaten to the punch, it went on the back burner.

Late to this thread. Topic of great interest. I will follow the conversation and comment when something worthwhile occurs to me that has not already been covered. You guys are often pretty quick with pin-point comments/reactions, so it leaves little time for a slow thinker to do much more than nod in silent agreement.

Feel free to speak up any time the mood hits you.

Ken wrote: "Not to flog my own work but one of my books is my take on updating Chandler's Los Angeles to contemporary times and moving the action south to the OC Gold Coast.
Not a whodunit by any means. I was..."

You know, Tim Dorsey has a series (Serge Storms) where the killer is the main character in every book. I don't read them, but my husband thinks they're genius. Take it off the back burner!

Nancy wrote: "Ken wrote: "Take it off the back burner! "

I did. Its available on Amazon

Hoping to get the follow up ready for May release. I'll check out the Tim Dorsey books.

The Serge Storms books by Dorsey are like Douglas Adams or Carl Hiaasen, a kind of off the wall absurdist style that you'll love or hate. Technically mystery, but a style all their own, except Adams is more science fiction.

I think we can agree that noir fiction was born with Hammett and Chandler in the pulp magazines of the day, notably Black Mask. So I ask, have we come full circle with the graphic novels of today. Not certain they are noir per say as I don't read them but seems a lot of them are making their way into TV and film. Of note would be the success of 'The Walking Dead' but that's a different genre completely. 'Sin City' was from a graphic. If it fits the noir genre it was way overdone, on steroids perhaps.

Any others?

I'll suggest the HBO series 'True Detective' but only the first season. Have you heard the joke about season 3? Harrelson and McConaughey are coming back in season three to figure out WTF happened in season two.

I always considered Loren Estleman, Andrew Vachss, Dennis Lehane, even James Lee Burke noir.

About all I watch on TV is football, so no clue about those shows.

I've read all but Estleman. Vachss is super noir. Thinking about Burke and Lehane, I can see why you'd say that. Isn't REacher a bit noir?

Well, I can see we are all in agreement here. As for Lehane, I think 'Mystic River' fits the bill.

Here's a Chandler quote I've always liked:
“Had my books been any worse I would not have been invited to Hollywood and if they had been any better I would not have come.”

Reacher can be noir-ish but to me it is an action thriller, pure and simple. Yes, there are dark elements, but not what I'd consider true noir. Certainly many espionage books have a noir feel, like Len Deighton, but they aren't mystery.

And yeah, Vachss is VERY dark and not something everyone would enjoy. I liked his Burke series, but not after he brought him back from 'the dead'. F. Paul Wilson's Repairman Jack can run very dark as well.

Matt Scudder by Block is more noir. Willian Kent Krueger has a noir edge, but is not what I'd call noir. He is, however, a superb writer. His prose is just a pure pleasure to read.

I separate things like action thrillers, assassin, sniper, and other kinds of blends of noir and classic noir, which to me is mystery.

We had an interesting discussion over on PBS (paperback swap) some time back because so many authors seem to do mashups of multiple genres. Richard Kadrey writes the Sandman Slim series with is part action thriller, part vengeance, always dark but with a sardonic edge, paranormal, dystopian UF with a bit of mystery thrown in. I think many new series cut across genres and mix within genres till they are hard to pin to a single sub-genre. That series is often listed in horror, which I guess might be noir, but not to me.

It's hard to say 'noir' without adding 'mystery' these days to separate it from other dark themed type books.

That's what I did in my first book. I wanted to write in a noir-ish style with a paranormal undercurrent. It came out at the inception of the e-book revolution, before cross-genre fiction was common.
Now you see a lot of it, especially from indie authors.

Black Wings Has My Angel by Elliott Chaze -- noir on steroids. Great book.

My first exposure to noir was "Who Framed Rodger Rabbit?" (I know, lol, but it's true).

Since then, I've loved it. Things like Dick Tracy, and Sin City all feel like they fit squarely into noir, and I've enjoyed those an immense amount as well. I don't see it all that often, but when I do, I get excited. :3

(My debut novel is actually written in noir style--good stuff!)

Nancy wrote: "I just hate that there seems to be a "noir" label for everything. I recently read a novel billed as snow noir."

I am going to flash back to the beginning posts of this group and the long, intense, discussion of what is, or is not, "noir." Noir, for me, is an atmosphere, a look of a film or the texture of a story, and is not defined by a category. So I see how there could be "snow noir." (But that is a stretch.)

And to steal a phrase from United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it."

noir is for me an existential sort of thing and you're right, I know it when I see it. And I read a LOT of it.

I have written one novel in noir--not easy, but fun.

In my review of Joe Ide’s superb first novel I.Q. , I characterise it as Bling-Noir

Completely delicious! A fabulous journey into Tarantino-esque dialog and characters, a bling noir, a poor black's Sherlock and money-driven, a'hole Watson, a completely guilty pleasure.

Fun, huh?

Does a noir novel have to be written in the first person voice? It seems that the best noir thrillers have a compelling first person narrator. Do you agree?

It's pretty hard to define Noir these days. However if we think back we see both first- and third-persons used. I'm fine with both.

Well, what IS the difference? Author Megan Abbott has some answers!

https://lithub.com/megan-abbott-on-th...

Hardboiled is distinct from noir, though they’re often used interchangeably. The common argument is that hardboiled novels are an extension of the wild west and pioneer narratives of the 19th century. The wilderness becomes the city, and the hero is usually a somewhat fallen character, a detective or a cop. At the end, everything is a mess, people have died, but the hero has done the right thing or close to it, and order has, to a certain extent, been restored. Law and Order is a great example of the hardboiled formula in a contemporary setting.

Noir is different. In noir, everyone is fallen, and right and wrong are not clearly defined and maybe not even attainable. In that sense, noir speaks to us powerfully right now, when certain structures of authority don’t make sense any longer, and we wonder: Why should we abide by them? Noir thrived in the 40s after the Depression and World War II, and in the 70s, with Watergate and Vietnam, for similar reasons.

Well what do you think?

All I know is that I just know noir when I see it. I really don't pay too much attention when someone tries to define it for me. Let's not forget that every Scandinavian crime novel that comes out these days is "Scandi-noir"; then there's "domestic noir" ad nauseum. Labeling everything noir is one my big pet peeves in this genre.

Always think of hardboiled as very tough, brutal and very physical. Often the hero is up against some sort of organised gang or corrupt government.

Noir is the darkness of the heart, the loss of hope for a true hero to save the day. Motives are complex and often star-crossed. The hero (usually a man) has internal demons and failures in his past.

Romance often features, and as the extraordinary Joseph Knox says in his debut novel, a ten-star noir masterpiece, his flawed hero pining for the girl:

There should be a word for it. That phantom limb, reaching out from your chest, towards things you’ll never have.
— from Sirens my review.

One of my favorite noir reads is The City and The City by China Mieville. I am very specific in my tastes for noir and this book hit every note for me. It’s a murder mystery, a fantasy and a great read. It reignited my love of noir. I just ordered the Thompson book because of the posts here. I think noir can cross all genres if the right elements are there.