Dickensians! discussion

"Diogenes" is probably his best named dog :) But there are quite a few ...

Cleopatra and Cousin Feenix in "Dombey and Son" seem an exotic pairing...

Oh yes, Diogenes is a great dog name!

Haha, Jim, Diogenes is a great dog name. I didn't know that example. Thx.

Diogenes was one of the founders of the Cynics, for people who may not know. And the Cynics were called so pejoratively.

"The name Cynic derives from Ancient Greek κυνικός (kynikos), meaning 'dog-like', and κύων (kyôn), meaning 'dog' (genitive: kynos)."

A few of my favourites from our current group read:

Edmund Sparkler - a cheerful dimwit. In England if you say someone is a "bright spark" it's always used sardonically, i.e. meaning just the opposite :)

Jeremiah Flintwinch - another appropriate name. He has a neck which is twisted to one side, and a crooked necktie. Also, he seems to have something sinister about him - "screwing" both people and situations.

Tattycoram - a nickname which the owner hated. The first part is a diminutive from Harriet; the second part the surname of the benefactor who founded the orphanage "Foundling Hospital" established for the "education and maintenance of exposed and deserted young children" so the whimsically named Tattycoram could never forget her humble origins.

Flora Finching - the once-pretty, twittery ex-sweetheart, now sadly no longer a little songbird.

Mrs. General - the well "varnished" and organised, with a correct direction for every circumstance.

Mr. and Mrs. Merdle - a pun on the French “merde” (“excrement”) and “hurdle”.

And the best of all:

Tite Barnacle and the Stiltstalkings - the Barnacles who cling limpet-like to their sinecures and red tape of the government's Circumlocution Office. Stiltstalkings ... well I just like the name :) I also like Old Nandy and the alliterative Plornish the Plasterer, which makes me think of children's books!

There are so many great names in this novel :)

It's been awhile since I've read Nicholas Nickleby (which name has a nice ring to it), but I remember how much I liked the characterization of the twin brothers, Charles and Ned Cheeryble.

They are so cheer-y and comfortable, aren't they, Reggia, And did you know they are based on real people?

The Cheeryble brothers were based on two benefactors who were brothers, Daniel and William Grant. They came from Scotland, but settled in Ramsbottom in Greater Manchester (although during Dickens's time, this will have been thought of as part of the county of Lancashire.) Some of the fine houses they built are still there. For instance, St Andrew's Church from 1832 is also known as Grant's Church. It was originally consecrated as a Scottish Presbyterian Chapel, with a donation of £5,000 by William Grant. They regularly gave money to promising new enterprises and for education, supporting schools, libraries and the charitable institutions, and when homes and farmlands on Speyside were swept away by floods in 1829, gave £100 to swell "The Flood Fund".

Dickens was keen to make sure everyone knew of these remarkable pair. This is from his preface,

"It may be right to say that there are 2 characters in this book which are drawn from life. Those who take an interest in this tale will be glad to learn that the Brothers Cheeryble do live; that their liberal charity, their singleness of heart, noble nature and unbounded benevolence are no creatures of the author’s brain, but are prompting every day some munificent and generous deed in that town of which they are the pride and honour." May, 1848.

There are just so many great names in Nicholas Nickleby. I just love them!

Dotheboys Hall - the vile school where the boys were well and truly "done to"

Wackford Squeers - the headmaster, overkeen on whacking his pupils, and Miss Knag - the spiteful forewoman. No need to wonder what her manner was like!

There's Lord Frederick Verisoft - soft of brain - "weak and silly", his friend the Honourable Mr Snobb, and Sir Mulberry Hawk - "the most knowing card in the pack" - who treats everyone, including his "friends", as his prey.

The Infant Phenomenon (or "Infernal Phenomenon" as the leading man, Mr Folair termed her, Miss La Crevy a "mincing young lady of fifty", Mr Crowl, who "utters a low querulous growl", Mrs Wititterly who seems to witter a lot and has "an air of sweet insipidity" and the best of the lot, Sir Tumley Snuffim, who is perhaps not such a good doctor if his patients "snuff it"!

I love the family in Bleak House that is always selling subscriptions for the poor people in Africa. Those poor kids!!

Mrs. Jellyby, Kirsten? And Poor Mr. Jellyby indeed, who finds consolation in leaning his head on walls - any wall! I love the tiny tot Peepy Jellyby too, and hardworking Caddy :)

Mrs. Jellyby was based on a real person, Caroline Chisholm, who had started out as an evangelical philanthropist in Sydney, Australia, and then moved to England. Over the next six years she helped 11,000 people to settle in Australia. Charles Dickens admired her greatly, but was appalled that these good works activities meant that - as far as he was concerned - she neglected her family.

Kirsten, when you wrote about family selling subscriptions for the poor, I first thought of Lady Pardiggle with her endless good works. Honestly, she comes to mind first with some volunteering efforts these days! Especially when you think about her sons being bullied into donating all their money to people whose needs are so much more than a meager handout!

Mrs. Jellyby and Mrs. Pardiggle are like two peas in a pod, aren't they Helen! And of course they are great friends in Bleak House, so probably influence each other.

Somehow though I find little humour in Mrs. Pardiggle's bible-thumping "good works". She is rude and arrogant - and thoroughly unpleasant. I feel that Mrs. Jellyby is hopeless, but means well!

By the way, Kirsten and Helen, do please make sure you say what you'd like to read next, in our Nominations thread. We're just talking at the moment, pre-poll.

Jean, I am not sure - I was not able to follow more closely Little Dorrit. A lot was happening during the pandemic. We have two teenagers at home, both with ADHD - and they had to switch to virtual studying at some point while my husband and I continued working from home. Needless to say, virtual studying very soon translated into no studying at all, with frequent tantrums... do I need to say more!

"Bleak House" would be a great novel to read together, but it is such a long and complex creation that I hesitate to suggest it, especially so soon after finishing "Little Dorrit".

"Our Mutual Friend" is shorter but no less complex, plus it has rather dark undertones. We probably could use something a little more cheerful right now. For the same reason, I'm not mentioning "The Mystery of Edwin Drood".

What do you think of "Dombey and Son"? Quite a lot of sadness there as well, with little Paul, but Florence is a strong personality and ends up as a winner against all odds.

Helen - I am so sorry - life must have been incredibly stressful in your house recently. I an hoping hard that things start to get back to normal for you as soon as possible!

In terms of the length, we have already read David Copperfield as a group and it was very popular. Since that is Charles Dickens's longest novel, I'm not too worried :)

Of the ones you mention, by word count, oddly Dombey and Son is the second longest! Bleak House is the third, Our Mutual Friend is the sixth, and the incomplete The Mystery of Edwin Drood is the fifteenth.

But about which to chose, I agree completely with your thoughts, and would like to explore this further on the nominations thread.

Two names I really like are from The Lazy Tour Of Two Idle Apprentices, which we read a few months ago:

Mr. Thomas Idle is a satirical portrayal of Wilkie Collins.

In 1856, a year before the story (a collaboration between the two authors), Wilkie Collins had begun to use laudanum regularly to treat his gout, and sadly it made him very lethargic.

And Mr. Francis Goodchild is a satirical portrayal of Charles Dickens.

This character puts an inordinate effort into everything. This, as we've noticed time and time again, clearly indicates the frenetic activity of Charles Dickens.

Clever names :)

Any more favourites?

Jim wrote: "Mr Toots and the dog Diogenes from "Dombey and Son" are fun names for fun characters."

We're just about to meet those, Jim! And I really like them both - the characters as well as their names :)

Uriah Heep and Wilkins Micawber from David Copperfield surely make the list.

Definitely, for me Jim!

Although I feel terrible sorry for Hans Christian Andersen, to have such an obnoxious creation as Uriah modelled on him :(

How about favourite characters from our group read of Dombey and Son. I'll start us off with a couple ...

Charles Dickens was fantastic at thinking up APTRONYMS i.e. someone's name which is amusingly appropriate to their occupation, or personality. So for this I offer:

Susan Nipper and Mrs. MacStinger, who are both rather sharp females!

From Dombey and Son:

I feel that evil James Carker is one of the most unforgettable villains in my reading, a character you love to hate. Every time his white teeth flashed with their false smile I thought of the Big Bad Wolf from Little Red Riding Hood, and wondered who he was going to emotionally devour. Jean gave us lots of information about false teeth, including the gleaming white porcelain variety that Carker was probably wearing.

I think that Florence is the most lovable female character I have found in the Dickens' works we have read as a group so far. She has a combination of strength, loyalty, and sweetness.

I loved Little Paul. What a sweet, charming and sensitive boy!

I loved Florence and her loving nature. She is the epitome of devotion to those she loved including her father who couldn't love her. She is such an example of grace and mercy and unchanging love. She thought of others before herself. She is such an admirable character.

For Dombey and Son, it's hard to narrow it down! There's so many great characters - even Evil Carker is a great character, if only in the way that Dickens created him. He's so remarkably, purely evil and terrifying.

But for characters I love - Florence, Captain Cuttle, Mr Toots, and Cousin Feenix. Florence is goodness personified - she is all that is kind, compassionate, sweet, and truly loving.

Captain Cuttle is not far behind Florence in goodness - he would give the shirt off his back and his last penny to help a loved one in need. Loyal, dependable, and gruffly loving.

Mr Toots - watching him transition from school boy to adulthood was sad but sweet. His first love hit him hard. He, too, is an example of goodness - kind, loyal, dependable, thinking of others before himself.

Cousin Feenix - a minor character, maybe, but he has great comedic value to me. The way he tries to walk in one direction but his legs carry him in another is too funny. I adore the way he describes his friends and assumes whoever he's speaking to knows them. There's no airs and graces with Feenix - he's not wealthy, doesn't pretend to be, and isn't bothered by it. He stands by his relations when they need him, so he's dependable and loyal. Also a fairminded man.

My favourite side character name was the Reverend Howler. Great name for a preacher!

Janelle wrote: "My favourite side character name was the Reverend Howler. Great name for a preacher!"

Oh that's a great one! I forgot about the reverend!

I think my favorite character names in Dombey and Son would have to be The Game Chicken, aka The Chicken, and Biler. I know Biler later came to be called Rob, then Robin. But I loved the scene early on when Mr Toodle explained Biler's name to Mr Dombey.

Connie wrote: "From Dombey and Son:

I feel that evil James Carker is one of the most unforgettable villains in my reading, a character you love to hate. Every time his white teeth flashed with th..."

Wonderful thought here Connie - Carker as the Big Bad Wolf. I never thought of that, but it fits perfectly!!

My favorite side character in Dombey and Son is Mr. Morfin. He strikes me as a model for the common person. He goes to work, does his job and plays his violin. I know I've been like this in my life. I should think most of us have been that way. He ignores the poor people in the street or at work, until one day his eyes are opened (its a spoiler to say why) and he decides to do the right thing. He has some of the most memorable lines like "vices are sometimes only virtues taken to extremes" (I'm doing that from memory so forgive me if I got it wrong).

Bridget wrote: "My favorite side character is Mr. Morfin. He strikes me as a model for the common person. He goes to work, does his job and plays his violin. I know I've been like this in my life. I should think m..."

I thought you'd choose Mr Morfin! He's a quiet character but so honorable and kind.

I really enjoy Susan Nipper and Mr Toots, and I love to hate Joey Bagstock and Mrs Chick!

I totally agree, Judy. Diogenes is wonderful too; even if he can’t talk he certainly makes himself understood.

Thank everyone for not including spoilers! It can be quite tricky.

Mr. Perch is another cleverly named fellow from Dombey and Son. He sits perched on his high stool all day at the firm, scribbling away :)

And Dr Parker Peps - who I almost feel might be dyspeptic himself! He's the snooty one, and Mr Pilkins is the lowly general doctor, dispenser of pills, who deferred to him

Captain Edward (Ned) Cuttle - makes me think of cuttlefish

I've been meaning to add Nicodemus Dumps to this thread, the main character of the early story The Bloomsbury Christening, from Sketches by Boz, which we have just been reading. He's a wonderfully grumpy and overbearing character, as his name suggests!

I was hoping you'd add him, thanks Judy :) What a fabulous, unforgettable name!

The Pecksniffs
Mr Quilp
Mr Murdstone
Wackford Squeers
Mr Jingle
Sir Leicester Dedlock
Dick Swiveller

The list just goes on and on. incredibly inventive names that have an uncanny ability to adhere to one's memory!

And so descriptive and apt! Nobody does a name like Charles Dickens, though I think there are a fair few in 18th century novels. He just took the idea and seemed to make it his own :)

How about Mr Turvydrop, master of deportment? Or Mrs Pardiggle? Bleak House has some of the best names!

Most of these have already been covered, but here are some favorite names:

Pumblechook who is someone you'd love to pummel and choke.
Wackford Squeers who was always whacking children.
The lawyers Snitchey and Craggs from one of the Christmas books.
Pleasant Riderhood, a Bond girl waiting to happen.
Dick Swiveller, named by a parent with a future porn star in mind.
Charley Bates, aka Master Bates. I'm pretty sure that was unintentional since the homophone wasn't really used back when Oliver Twist was written, but it's still funny.

As for favorite characters, some of the minor ones left the biggest impressions on me:
Mr. Jaggers, a lawyer so formidable he can leave his door unlocked and has no fear of ever losing his pocket watch.

The unflappable Traddles, the Neville Longbottom of yesteryear who ends up (view spoiler)[pulling everyone's bacon out of the fire (hide spoiler)] if I recall correctly. He's kind of like this:



And Rosa Dartle just for pure hatefulness.

Michael - we're reading Bleak House in the new year, so I'm sure we'll rediscover some of those delights :)

Jason - you've certainly made some unusual connections there! And I agree "favorite characters, some of the minor ones left the biggest impressions on me". There are just so many, each with their own story, but leaving us wanting more!

Jason, John Sutherland wrote a piece about the Charley "Master" Bates question in one of his books of literary puzzles.

Judy wrote: "Jason, John Sutherland wrote a piece about the Charley "Master" Bates question in one of his books of literary puzzles."

I'll have to check that out. It'd be good to put that to rest, and hear from someone who has done more that some cursory research on the internet, which is what I'm guilty of doing.

Here's his page: John Sutherland. As Judy says, he written some excellent books of literary puzzles (short essays). They fascinating! I have 3 (all reviewed) and would like to read some of his other books - they all look interesting.

I've only read and reviewed one book by Sutherland, How to Read a Novel, and it only got two stars from me. But his books on literary puzzles seem more intriguing.

I found The Literary Detective: 100 Puzzles in Classic Fiction (which seems to be a compilation of some of his other books) on abebooks for seven bucks. I couldn't find a table of contents, but I think it might be worth the financial risk based on what I did find out about it. It looks like he discusses a few books I've read in it, and it might be cool to learn a little more about them. It even says I can find out "who betrays Elizabeth Bennet." The only problem is I don't remember anybody betraying Elizabeth Bennet, or what it was all about. I read Pride and Prejudice just a few months ago, but it apparently didn't leave that big of an impression, though I remember liking the mother. Meaning I liked reading about her; I didn't like her as a person because she was a twit. And I remember wishing someone would just cold-cock the younger daughter... And that's about all I've got for Ms. Austen.

Anyway, thanks everyone for the tip.

Wow that's a real bargain Jason! It sounds like a compendium of the three I have :)

I've reviewed Who Betrays Elizabeth Bennet?: Further Puzzles in Classic Fiction LINK HERE. The title, as many of his titles are, is just intended to draw you in. It relates to just one essay out of the 33 in this book, and could have been continued "to Lady Catherine de Bourgh", as it relates to (view spoiler)[ when it is suggested that Elizabeth Bennet might marry Mr Fitzwilliam Darcy. (hide spoiler)] So it's to do with her good name.

The only chapter title which isn't a teaser like this one, is called "Name Games". This may have been the place Judy was thinking of - or there may be another. This chapter is not just about one puzzle, but covers many names in classic books, including Charley Bates. He's referred to as "Master Bates" 7 times in Oliver Twist which apparently several critics have raised their eyes over, as nobody else in the novel is called "Master" so many times. They think it is somehow "beneath" Charles Dickens, and wonder if it is unconscious.

My personal take is that since Oliver Twist was his first "proper" novel, he put in this schoolboy joke with a gleeful sense of naughtiness. He was still very influenced by the 18th century bawdy novels he enjoyed, and developed more of a sense of propriety later!

I hope you enjoy your massive John Sutherland book! As you suspect, it's a good one to dip into, to read about blips, deliberate mistakes, or true mysteries in the novels you have read.

Werner wrote: "I've only read and reviewed one book by Sutherland, How to Read a Novel, and it only got two stars from me."

Oh dear! I've just read your review, which is extensive and condemning! A great review, so I can't say nay without reading the book. All I can suggest is that you may not be his target audience, perhaps? John Sutherland is a highly distinguished and well respected academic with many titles to his name, most of which are on GR.

One you might have in your College library is The Stanford Companion to Victorian Fiction (that's the US title for it), first published in 1989. It is a comprehensive encyclopaedia of Victorian fiction: 900 biographical entries, synopses of over 600 novels, and extensive background material on publishers, reviewers, and readers. Have a look - it might be more your cup of tea :)

But it's a shame you don't like the way John Sutherland writes, as I've enjoyed everything I've read by him, finding it knowledgable, incisive and witty. He does however sometimes mistitle his work, and perhaps that might have happened here, meaning that if you expected a literal, down to earth "how to" guide, you would be disappointed!

Or ... it could just be a rare flop. I haven't read it, after all, and now really want to, as the blurb sounds great - and I'm intrigued by your strong reaction.

(By the way, "GBH" is a police acronym which all aspects of society know here! It stands for "grievous bodily harm" and is a worse crime, incurring a heavier sentence than "ABH" - "actual bodily harm". Only rarely would an English reader not know this, although obviously from your comment Americans do not use the term.)

EDIT: Only one other friend has reviewed this book, a fellow Dickensian (Judy, again :)) Where you put under "Recommends it for: To be honest, I wouldn't really recommend it to anybody!" she put: "Recommends it for: diehard fans of John Sutherland".

It sounds as though he really might have been having an off-day! Perhaps I'll read some of his others first :)

Thanks, Jean, and thanks for the "like." If you read it sometime, I'll be interested in your review (you might like it better than I did!).

I'm sure that many of Sutherland's works would be much more substantial and useful. The BU (yes, we're officially a "university" as of this year) library doesn't have the Stanford Companion to Victorian Fiction, but it sounds as though it could be a valuable addition to our collection. (We don't have anything comparable.)

Thanks also for the definition of GBH! Another lady, who commented on my review back in 2015, also explained it, but I didn't see her post until this evening (evidently my Goodreads notifications were messed up then, too). She said it was "A good description of what I feel like treating the author to after my hopes were raised by the title and cover copy." :-)

Werner - LOL! It certainly is beginning to sound like a dud! What rotten luck, to start with an author's pot-boiler. Perhaps someone should have a word with John Sutherland - or his editor - and tell him that he really should rename his books, as they are appealing to a different target audience. It sounds like this one should have been called "Odd Musings of an Academic", or some such.

Ah, so Bluefields (?) is a university now. If that is a higher status, then congratulations! Here we have an odd situation where both Oxford and Cambridge Universities (the oldest and most venerable universities in England) are made up from different colleges. So you might go to Christchurch College (Oxford) or Trinity College (Cambridge), for instance. There are more than 40 Colleges at Oxford, and more than 30 at Cambridge, and all are separate institutions; students go to one College. Universities in other parts of the country were, rather facetiously, colloquially called "redbricks" (i.e., not built from ancient stone).

However until comparatively recently, a city may have had one university and several colleges. Their university had higher academic status, awarding degrees, whereas a college would award certificates. Now though, the edges are very blurred and only really historic!

This is because in 1992, all colleges and polytechnics became termed as "new universities". Then the "new" was dropped, so all tertiary education of this sort is at a "university". Yet Oxbridge retain their Colleges ...

Fascinating, huh?

Yes, that is interesting! In the U.S., the term "university" is more prestigious than "college," but both universities and colleges award degrees. Historically, the universities were generally older (although William and Mary College is the second-oldest college in the country, and it's still just a "college"), larger and wealthier. The determining factor in the designation has usually been that they grant graduate degrees as well as four-year degrees, and are organized into "colleges"/"schools" (though these are usually just different groupings of disciplines --for instance, "College of Arts and Letters" or "School of Nursing").

As in England, though, here there's been a tendency in the last 30 years to exponentially expand the prestigious term. With the advent of the Internet, a lot of colleges, like Bluefield, have started offering graduate degrees entirely through distance education, though they don't offer any in residence; and it's also become a fad to organize the majors into "colleges" and "schools." So a large number of colleges have promoted themselves to "university" rank.