Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Suzann wrote: "Seems like Quentin might be craving a return to childhood innocence before the concept of honor or "unvirginity" muddied the drawers. Sexuality seems to be a barrier to his healthy transition to adulthood and his sanctuary seems to be the innocence of childhood with Caddie's warmth and affection. He's a motherless child. Caddie offers the only substitute. What he seems to want to freeze is the relentless oncoming future, reality which he can't handle. ..."

This is really helpful in trying to get a better grasp of Quentin's sexuality.

Suzann wrote: "Seems like Quentin might be craving a return to childhood innocence before the concept of honor or "unvirginity" muddied the drawers. Sexuality seems to be a barrier to his healthy transition to adulthood..."

There is a possibility that Quentin is gay. His description of Dalton Ames indicates an attraction:

Dalton Ames. Dalton Ames. Dalton Shirts. I thought all the time they were khaki, army issue khaki, until I saw they were of heavy Chinese silk or finest flannel because they made his face so brown his eyes so blue...

As you suggested, Suzann, he may have a hard time coming to terms with his sexuality. I think Caddy may even suspect that about him:

poor Quentin she leaned back on her arms her hands locked about her knees youve never done that have you what done what that what I have what I did yes yes lots of times with lots of girls then I was crying her hand touched me again and I was crying against her damp blouse

Mike wrote: "We see in the section that we have two time periods played out at the same time. We have his daily life at Harvard interlaced with echos of his past with Caddy. Quentin seems to be unable to accept nor reconcile these two time periods...."

For me, the jeweller's shop is a useful image. There is one big clock on the wall with the Present time. All the rest of the watches in the window show random times. Quentin asks if any of the watches in the window are right. The jeweller looks at the big clock on the wall and attempts to tell him the current time, in which Quentin has no interest. Unlike Quentin, the jeweller is firmly rooted in reality. Quentin, however, seems to have a tenuous grasp on reality. His ticking watch, shadows, church bells, the jeweller's big clock jog him back to his tenuous reality. While he's aware of this external time he manages to pack his trunk, write letters, pack a suit for Deacon, put his life in order. While Quentin manages to act in his tenuous reality, his mind is a clutter of watches marking non-real time, other times and places, his childhood, his memories. For me, Quentin wavers between the big clock of external reality and the internal chaos of the many watches marking many times, but not the external time. The clock shop seems like a wonderful image for Quentin's disturbed state of mind.

Cphe wrote: ".Re Herbert - I also had the impression that marriage into Caddy's family would be a step up for him socially, even though he did go to Harvard. Perhaps he was from "new money."

I think that's probably correct because he doesn't sound as if he comes from the same social class as the Compsons. But I can't think of anything off hand that says that in the text.

"I also had the impression that Quentin may well be gay"

I also somehow got that impression. However, I'm not sure wether this would be a too modern reading of the character. I.e. did Faulkner indeed point towards Quentin being gay (maybe yet another sign of decay of the family) or is it just that some of the characteristics defining Quentin as not being able to actually act (as in losing his virginity) and his obsession with the 'pureness' of Cassy are too us signs of gayness.
It does however add another layer upon the story. I do think what makes a classic a classic is the possibility to descern different things from them, making them relevant too in other timeperiods/situations.

Anyone have ideas about these references?
After the section with Caddie introducing Herbert to Quentin: "These country girls. You cant ever tell about them, can you. Well, anyway Byron never had his wish, thank God." Byron?

"Shreve said Aren't you even going to open it? Three days. Times........Three times." Anything Biblical about the threes?

There’s often something biblical about threes and TSATF has numerous biblical allusions. You may be onto something, Suzann. A couple other biblical allusions pertaining to the Quentin Section:

On second reading, I noticed that the time between Caddy’s wedding (April 25) and Quentin’s suicide (June 2) is 40 days. The same amount of time Christ spends wandering in the desert coming to terms with his fate and being tempted by the devil. I haven’t fully followed the metaphor, but the first challenge was also to turn stones to bread. Something that seems relevant to the part in the Bakery with Little Sister Death.

I also recently read an essay that noted the common comparisons of Quentin and Benjy as Christlike figures, but argued that it may be Caddy who is the true Christ figure. She seems to bear the brunt of the blame for the family’s downfall and goes through a figurative crucifixion through forced marriage, then banishment.

In the essay, the author argues that Quentin becomes more aware throughout his section that he betrayed Caddy by making her scapegoat for his anxieties and letting her pay for it with the shotgun wedding. Quentin‘s guilt leads him to suicide, much like Judas Iscariot. Notably, Judas also hanged himself on Holy Thursday (the Thursday before Easter, the day Quentin’s section alludes to.)

Just wanted to share some of that food for thought.

Suzann wrote: "Anyone have ideas about these references?
After the section with Caddie introducing Herbert to Quentin: "These country girls. You cant ever tell about them, can you. Well, anyway Byron never had h..."

I was curious, so I did some research. Apparently, Byron is a reference to the author of the poem Don Juan, Lord Byron. The following is from Reading Faulkner: TSATF (Ross & Polk):

“Either Shreve or Head, rather brutally teasing Quentin, refers to Byron's wished for and apparently achieved incest with his half-sister, Augusta Leigh. This wish is appropriate to Quentin's own incestuous feelings, which both Shreve and Head may suspect from what they have seen or heard of Quentin. This line may also allude to a passage in Byron's Don Juan (Canto VI, line 215) in which the poet wishes "That womankind had but one rosy mouth, / To kiss them all at once from North to South." The allusion to Don Juan expresses mock relief that all women are not alike, that all women are not like "[t]hese country girls" (93:31), as well as mocking (with "Lochinvar") Quentin's penchant for romantic posturing.”

Aiden wrote: "There’s often something biblical about threes and TSATF has numerous biblical allusions. A couple other biblical allusions pertaining to the Quentin Section: ..."

Thanks, Aiden. I've been working on the literal word for word. Time to take a broader perspective and put some of these motifs together! Thanks for the nudge!

Although they are obviously very different, Quentin and Benjy share some things in common, one of which is their ability to experience a past event as if it were happening in the now. We’ve seen Benjy do that repeatedly. But I think there is also evidence of Quentin doing the same. For example, in this snippet of Quentin recalling his conversation with Dalton Ames, he asks him:

Did you ever have a sister? No but they’re all bitches. Did you ever have a sister? One minute she was. Bitches. Not bitch one minute she stood at the door Dalton Ames. Dalton Ames. Dalton shirts.

At the same meeting, he tries to punch Dalton. But he passes out, instead. As Quentin remembers this, we jump to the present day with Shreve and Spoade tending to Quentin’s eye. Apparently, Quentin has punched Gerald Bland. Bland, who knows how to box, has retaliated by giving Quentin a bloody eye. Spoade describes what happened:

“Say,” he said, “what did you hit him for? What was it he said?”
“I don’t know. I don’t know why I did.”
“The first I knew was when you jumped up all of a sudden and said, “Did you ever have a sister? Did you? And when he said No, you hit him. I noticed you kept on looking at him, but you didn’t seem to be paying any attention to what anybody was saying until you jumped up and asked him if he had any sisters.”

Quentin experiences his meeting with Dalton as if it were occurring in the present. He lashes out at Gerald Bland because he thinks he is lashing out at Dalton.

Are there any other examples of Quentin blurring the past with the present?

Aiden wrote: "In the essay, the author argues that Quentin becomes more aware throughout his section that he betrayed Caddy by making her scapegoat for his anxieties and letting her pay for it with the shotgun wedding. Quentin‘s guilt leads him to suicide, much like Judas Iscariot."

This progression toward self-awareness would be interesting to track. This would seem to require empathizing with Caddie, acknowledging her point of view, taking responsibility, and severing his dependence, freeing both her and himself to move on. I may be missing the subtlety of "becoming aware of his betrayal". Q. is able to show concern for the immigrant child in a symbolic sister role, which may be paralleling a similar change is his attitude toward Caddie, but I missed it. The immigrant child vignette does show Quentin attempting to restore the child to it's parents and the attempt going badly awry, much like his attempt to constrain Caddie to her childhood dependence. I got Caddie as a projection of Q's own sexual anxiety, "scapegoat" you said. I didn't see Q. getting past his fixation on his traumatic sexual encounter with Natalie, inability to transfer that unsatisfied sexual need to Caddie, and loss of Caddie as sister and emotional mother. In the end, Q is unable to recognize Caddie's sexual transition to adulthood as natural and positive. Guilt may be a factor, but lots of folks have guilt-inspired religious training and still manage to become independent adults. I may be showing my lean toward psychological rather than religious explanations. Room for lots of lenses, I think.

Suzann wrote: "Aiden wrote: "In the essay, the author argues that Quentin becomes more aware throughout his section that he betrayed Caddy by making her scapegoat for his anxieties and letting her pay for it with..."

I definitely agree that there is room for lots of lenses. I also agree that psychological is an important perspective to examine. However, I think we have to remember that the psychological aspects of meaning in the novel is the psychology of Freud and Jung; that is, the popular psychological views/theories of Faulkner’s day.

You make some interesting points if we are discussing the characters’ psychology absent authorial intent (which is definitely worth doing), but I’m not sure they are reflective of Faulkner’s intent and culture.

Aiden wrote: "I think we have to remember that the psychological aspects of meaning in the novel is the psychology of Freud and Jung; that is, the popular psychological views/theories of Faulkner’s day...."

Is a Freudian/Jungian influence identifiable in Faulkner's portrayal of these characters? How could Faulkner's intent and culture be characterized? The more I look. the more complicated Faulkner becomes!

Suzann wrote: "Aiden wrote: "I think we have to remember that the psychological aspects of meaning in the novel is the psychology of Freud and Jung; that is, the popular psychological views/theories of Faulkner’s..."

Quentin’s conflicted feelings about his sister and his death drive seem Freudian to me. It’s also been suggested in commentary that the knife he holds to Caddy’s throat is a phallic symbol, just as his dropping it in the branch could symbolize loss of his manhood because he couldn’t go through with his suicide/incest threats.

By intent and culture, I mean the culture of Mississippi in 1929, as opposed to present day ideas.

I definitely agree with you about Faulkner. That man was complex and readers like myself love him for it!

Aiden wrote: "the knife he holds to Caddy’s throat is a phallic symbol, just as his dropping it in the branch could symbolize loss of his manhood because he couldn’t go through with his suicide/incest threats..."

The power of these images to create the depth of character Faulkner imagined is amazing! Myth, Biblical references, Faulkner's understanding of the unconscious, add dimension and imagery to the puzzle Tamara invited us to work at the start! Always exciting to think you've found an edge piece and maybe it will fit with another's edge piece. At the moment finding the whole seems a bit daunting, but hey, one piece at a time and lots of mistaken tries. Love the communal effort of this puzzle!

Suzann wrote: "At the moment finding the whole seems a bit daunting, but hey, one piece at a time and lots of mistaken tries. ."

More pieces of the puzzle will fall into place the further we get into the book. By the time we get to the Jason section, which is a lot easier to read than the previous sections, much of the Benjy and Quentin sections will make more sense.

And I agree with both you and Aiden. Faulkner must have had an incredible mind to come up with such a complex work.

Tamara wrote: Quentin makes several references to birds in his section--sparrows and gulls.

I'm still finishing the Q section, but gulls are everywhere! Every time, I think of the albatross in Rime of the Ancient Mariner. Sea birds. Guilt. Taking the blame. ...there's something there.

Ashley wrote: "I'm still finishing the Q section, but gulls are everywhere! Every time, I think of the albatross in Rime of the Ancient Mariner. Sea birds. Guilt. Taking the blame. ...there's something there..."

Good catch! The albatross, sea birds, water, guilt.

I picked out a few references to birds in this section:

A sparrow slanted across the sunlight, onto the window ledge, and cocked his head at me. His eye was round and bright. First he’d watch me with one eye, then flick! and it would be the other one, his throat pumping faster than any pulse. The hour began to strike. The sparrow quit swapping eyes and watched me steadily with the same one until the chimes ceased, as if he were listening too. Then he flicked off the ledge and was gone.”

The sparrow as a possible omen of death. It's as if Quentin and the sparrow are communicating. The hour strikes and the sparrow watches him until the chimes cease. And then he flies off as if to suggest it is now time.

As you noted, there are lots of references to gulls associated with water and foreshadowing Quentin’s suicide by drowning. Also, the gulls seem to represent an image of stasis, of time standing still--a Quentin obsession:

I could smell water and two masts, and a gull motionless in midair, like on an invisible wire between the masts, and I raised my hand and through my coat touched the letters I had written. When the car stopped I got off. . . The ship went through the bridge, moving under the bare poles like a ghost in broad day, with three gulls hovering above the stern like toys on invisible wires.”

The letters he touches are his suicide notes.

Another image of time in slow motion:
A gull on an invisible wire attached through space dragged.

There’s also an interesting image of a trout in stasis:
The trout hung, delicate and motionless among the wavering shadows.

When Quentin confronts Dalton Ames, he references a bird and the water as he looks over the bridge.

And with little sister death, we get this:

“’Where do you live sister?...’”
“There was a bird somewhere in the woods, beyond the broken and infrequent slanting of sunlight.
‘Your papa’s going to be worried about you. Don’t you reckon you’ll get a whipping for not coming straight home with that bread?’
The bird whistled again, invisible, a sound meaningless and profound, inflexionless, ceasing as though cut off with the blow of a knife, and again, and that sense of water swift and peaceful above secret places, felt, not seen not heard.”

The description of the water as “peaceful above secret places” foreshadows his death by drowning.

We’ve commented on Jason Compson Sr. but we haven’t said much about Caroline Compson. I think she deserves a closer look. Although we’ve seen glimpses of her in the Benjy section, a fuller picture emerges of her in the Quentin section and later in the Jason section.

In the conversations Quentin recalls between his mother and father, Caroline repeatedly rejects all her children except Jason who takes after her side of the family. She interprets Benjamin’s disability and Caddy’s pregnancy as punishment for “marrying a man who held himself above me . . .” She thinks of herself as marrying into a cursed family and now has to bear the burden of their sins as well as her own.

Jason I must go away you keep the others I'll take Jason and go where nobody knows us so he'll have a chance to grow up and forget all this the others dont love me they have never loved anything with that streak of Compson selfishness and false pride

let me have Jason and you keep the others they're not my flesh and blood like he is strangers nothing of mine and I am afraid of them I can take Jason and go where we are not known I'll go down on my knees and pray for the absolution of my sins that he may escape this curse try to forget that the others ever were . . .

what have I done to have been given children like these Benjamin was punishment enough and now for her to have no more regard for me her own mother I've suffered for her dreamed and planned and sacrificed . . . at times I look at her I wonder if she can be my child except Jason he has never given me one moment's sorrow since I first held him in my arms . . . I thought that Benjamin was punishment enough for any sins I have committed I thought he was my punishment for putting aside my pride and marrying a man who held himself above me I dont complain I loved him above all of them because of it because my duty . . . but I see now that I have not suffered enough I see now that I must pay for your sins as well as mine what have you done what sins have your high and mighty people visited upon me . . .

And she sets Jason to spy on Caddy:

I can look at her eyes and tell you may think she'd tell you but she doesn't tell things she is secretive you dont know her I know things she's done that I'd die before I'd have you know that's it go on criticise Jason accuse me of setting him to watch her as if it were a crime . . .

I don’t think Caroline Compson will win a Mother of the Year Award any time soon.

I’m conflicted in my feelings about Caroline. On my first reading, I hated her because of how she treats the majority of her children and her husband. This is my second reading and I felt the same detest for her so far, but your question prompted me to read an old essay about Faulkner’s characterization of motherhood and now I'm not so sure.

Caroline is definitely shown as a poor mother in memories, but all of the memories are shown through the eyes of men; Benjy, Quentin, Jason. Caroline is made to seem horrible, but she’s living in a paternalistic Old South where the only path available to her was marriage and motherhood. What is that was something she never wanted.

Should she be judged by the ways she doesn’t meet a standard if the standard is unfair and unavoidable? Do we even know if this was a marriage for love and not arranged to improve her own Bascomb family fortunes? I’m also not sure about her in relation to Jason III (father), since she might be like she is because she’s married (and subjugated to) an alcoholic nihilist.

There are definitely things about her and things she says and does that I don’t like, but I’m not sure how I feel about her in general anymore.

Aiden wrote: "Should she be judged by the ways she doesn’t meet a standard if the standard is unfair and unavoidable? Do we even know if this was a marriage for love and not arranged to improve her own Bascomb family fortunes? ..."

You raise an interesting point, but I do have some issues with it.

We can't judge Caroline--or any other character--by anything other than the words in the text. The fact she continues to say she is being punished for marrying into a family above her station may indicate she was coerced into marrying to improve Bascomb family fortunes. However, knowing how Caroline complains about everything else, wouldn't she have mentioned it if she had been coerced into a marriage she didn't want? She never does. In fact, she does the opposite. She takes responsibility for her marriage choice--about the only time she takes responsibility for anything.

One can also argue women at that time were still socialized to appear weak and fragile and delicate--or, at least, pretend to be those things--if they wanted to capture a suitable mate because it was assumed men did not take robust, strong women as wives. Ostensibly, they preferred them to be weak and dependent. So that might explain why she complains constantly about an imaginary illness. She has learned to play a role and she can't get out of it. But I think that's as far as we can take it.

Aiden wrote: "I’m also not sure about her in relation to Jason III (father), since she might be like she is because she’s married (and subjugated to) an alcoholic nihilist."

As you pointed out in a previous post, in spite of all his faults, Jason Sr. is a loving father. He is also a loving husband. We see him being nurturing toward his wife and managing the children so they don't disturb her. She may or may not have married for love, but she certainly wasn't being abused in the marriage.

Where I find her behavior reprehensible is in her treatment of her children. There is nothing about a woman's socialization living in the paternalistic South that says she should set her children against each other. That is exactly what she does. She sets Jason apart, feeds him the belief that she is his only ally in a family of vultures who are out to get him. She alienates him from his father and siblings, fueling his resentment and bitterness, and convincing him he has been cheated out of what is rightfully his. The results are horrendous, as we'll see in the Jason section.

Finally, Caroline's failures as a mother put her little daughter into the untenable position of having to be the surrogate mother for two of her brothers. I hear Quentin's refrain, "If I could only say mother," echoing throughout the book.

I fault Jason Sr. for his alcoholic nihilism and for his failure to give Quentin the guidance he desperately needed. But I think Caroline Compson's list of failures as a parent far exceed those of her husband.

I have been wondering about the extremes of the perceptions of time between Benjy and his brother, Quentin. Benjy of course seems to operate without it at all, just accumulating a jumble of simultaneous memories that are triggered by the stimulus of arbitrary sensation. Quentin on the other extreme end marks everything by time which also seems to mark for him an inescapable march toward inevitable decay and destruction. He seems to have taken his father's words to heart.

That Christ was not crucified: he was worn away by a minute clicking of little wheels. . .And so as soon as I knew I couldn’t see it, I began to wonder what time it was. Father said that constant speculation regarding the position of mechanical hands on an arbitrary dial which is a symptom of mind-function. Excrement Father said like sweating.

Can Aristotelian logic help here in calling out these extremes and trying to find a more appropriate means between them? I don't know if Benjy would be capable of this, but Quentin should be. What holds Quentin back from addressing his obsession with time?

Or is Quentin's obsession with time just an obsession with measuring the entropy, the unraveling of lives, that he sees all around him?

Is the breaking of the watch the only way Quentin feels any power in stopping time, and thus his family's entropy?

Is seeing the clock in town after he's broken his watch a reminder that time marches on and his powerlessness to stop time and entropy despite breaking his own watch?

There was a clock, high up in the sun, and I thought about how, when you dont want to do a thing, your body will try to trick you into doing it, sort of unawares.

David wrote: "I have been wondering about the extremes of the perceptions of time between Benjy and his brother, Quentin. Benjy of course seems to operate without it at all, just accumulating a jumble of simulta..."

Great questions.

I think the answer is 'yes' to all of them. Quentin's obsession with time is because he sees it as a means of measuring the decline of his family. He breaks his grandfather's watch to feel power over the control of time. He also derives satisfaction when seeing all the clocks in the jeweler's store that tell different times--as if to suggest time doesn't have to be taken seriously.

There were about a dozen watches in the window, a dozen different hours and each one with the same assertive and contradictory assurance that mine had, without any hands at all. Contradicting one another.

And the town clock reminds him time will proceed regardless of his attempts to stop it.

I think the final section of the novel will present a character who has a healthy relationship with time--a middle ground between extremes and one who understands that time moves forward regardless of what the clocks say.

David wrote: "I have been wondering about the extremes of the perceptions of time between Benjy and his brother, Quentin. Benjy of course seems to operate without it at all, just accumulating a jumble of simulta..."

I don’t disagree with either of the interpretations above, but wanted to point out the opinion of one scholar, at least, that Quentin is extremely unsettled by his father’s well-intended remarks about how unimportant Caddy’s situation is in the grand scheme.

James L. Roberts attributes Jason Sr. with an Absurdist philosophy, undermining Quentin’s belief system by saying that time will make him forget:

“In truth, Quentin wants to remember his horror; he is afraid he will forget--his father has said so. If Quentin can forget, then his horror has no meaning, and the passage of time will wipe it out. He feels that he must stop time.” Cliffsnotes, 1992

Roberts interprets Quentin’s suicide as the ultimate way to stop time. Something he couldn’t achieve through breaking his watch because the bells and ticking still reminded him.