Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

Henry wrote: "Paul wrote: "No, the FTC requires disclosure because you are endorsing a product for which you may or may not have been paid to endorse. It's a truth in advertising ruling. Too many scam artists ha..."

Henry, I'm sorry if this thread is getting you so frustrated you feel the need to bang your head against the wall. However, I stand behind my statement. I see nothing immoral or illegal about two writers reading and critiquing each other's writing. The example that auntie gave above is blackmail and should be reported. If people are uncomfortable with the practice they shouldn't do it.

I can vouch for Henry, like me he backs up the authenticity of his reviews by posting them to dedicated book blogs/book review sites and not just Amazon & Goodreads.

Jessica you said readers don't care if the review copy was provided free or not. While you're probably right on that score, it is the larger issue of how reliable any and all reviews are for books which the reciprocal deals mentioned on this thread throw into doubt. But yes we also have to acknowledge that when it comes down to it, no review is 100% trustworthy/objective.

Marc wrote: "I can vouch for Henry, like me he backs up the authenticity of his reviews by posting them to dedicated book blogs/book review sites and not just Amazon & Goodreads.

Jessica you said readers don'..."

The reality is writing is very subjective, and what one reader personally likes is not necessarily what others will like.

As such reviews are personal opinions and can never be 100% objective.

As an acquisition editor made clear on a publishers website: "Also, if an editor thinks a manuscript has merit, but it's not personally to her taste, she will often pass it on to another editor for a second consideration. If your manuscript is rejected, it doesn't mean it has no merit - this is a very subjective industry - but it does mean that, after careful consideration, one or more of our acquiring editors feel that XXXXXXX is not the right publisher for it."

There is also the idea that when you become an author you forfeit the right to review someone else's work. If it's good, people will think you're rating it high because authors support other authors, and perhaps you really are subconsciously giving it higher marks than you should because it turned out to be better than the usual dreck you've come to expect from Indies. But if it's bad, how can you throw stones at another author when your own work isn't perfect?--and face it, whose is?

Ju wrote: "The problem with this world now, there are too many self-pubs. Traditionally published authors do this all the time. I've been reading romance novels for over thirty years, and I've never read one ..."

There is a difference between giving a blurb for a book and reviewing it. /soapbox

David wrote: "I don't see a problem with offering free copies in exchange for an unbiased review, but the author should accept what comes back with grace: good or bad.

The unsolicited reviews are sweeter though..."

I wholeheartedly concur. What bothered me most about the OP (and I admit, it could have just been a poor word choice) was asking for a "nice" review in exchange for an "honest" one.

Ken wrote: "There is also the idea that when you become an author you forfeit the right to review someone else's work. If it's good, people will think you're rating it high because authors support other autho..."

Yep, this is what I was getting at earlier. This is why I choose not to participate in review swaps. How can one author not hold back her true opinion, knowing it just may impact the review she gets in turn? Isn't it more beneficial for growth to receive 3 stars from a reader than a curved 4 or 5 stars from an author in a swap (or family member)? After all, if it truly is a 3 star book, then those slanted 4 and 5 stars will do more harm than good. Readers are smart - they're readers of books, after all. Surely they can spot a suspect pumped-up review a mile away, if they choose to pay attention to them.

...Which leads me to my next point. When I go for books, I either ask for recommendations from people I know or spend some time scanning library or BN category lists. I don't pay much attention to the reviews when I do this, since they tend to be riddled with spoilers. I do pay some attention to the number and rating of stars (and if I do read a review, it's only of the low ratings). Herein lies the problem. The number of stars impacts your position in the ratings. If you have 5 real reviews that are an average of 4 stars, you'll fare worse than a crappy book that has 15 reviews with a 4.5 average, simply because you played by the rules and the other author played games. So, what can be done here beyond crossing fingers?

Le sigh.

A bad writer may gain some sales in the short run, and even a following, if he buys or trades for great reviews--and that may be all he's after. But I can't believe that he will succeed in the long run, or gain any stature as a writer, as more people start to read his work. In fact, I'm hoping that at some future point we'll have a whole new genre called "laughably bad writers," and that those who are currently committing fraud on their readers will have their names prominently listed.

Cheers to that. From your typing fingers to the readers' eyes!

the flaw with your new genre is that everyday there are new writers penning books. Their names will not yet be on the lists. This thing is self-perpetuating like canon fodder recruits being driven up to the front in a war

Ken wrote: "A bad writer may gain some sales in the short run, and even a following, if he buys or trades for great reviews--and that may be all he's after. But I can't believe that he will succeed in the lon..."

There's already one for bad book covers

http://lousybookcovers.com/

Marc wrote: "the flaw with your new genre is that everyday there are new writers penning books. Their names will not yet be on the lists. This thing is self-perpetuating like canon fodder recruits being driven ..."

New writers might think twice before publishing if they know they might end up on the list. On the other hand, new writers who don't know the craft probably won't know about the list, either.

R.F.G. wrote: "There's already one for bad book covers..."

I'm not all that worried about covers as long as the book is okay. Art is in the eye of the beholder, and it's too easy to dislike something for no definable reason. I make my own covers and enjoy doing it, so I'm pretty sure that one of my own will appear on that website someday. If it does, I'll consider it free advertising.

new writers just don't care. each imagines we are going to be the next big thing and that can blind us to anything and everything about the industry

Marc wrote: "new writers just don't care. each imagines we are going to be the next big thing and that can blind us to anything and everything about the industry"

Not all new writers. For example, I'm seeking reviews from bloggers: people who aren't concerned with sparing my feelings. I want to know as quickly as possible if my writing is rubbish. I don't wish to waste away in delusionville.

I hope you know some, because book bloggers are now so successful, some say they won't even consider self-published titles, others say their lists of books for review is so large, they can't get to your book for 4 months. Thumbs up or down, it won't be a quick verdict I'm afraid, unless you've some way of jumping the queue.

This is just one aspect we new writers don't predict up front. You have to learn as you go along.

Yes, of all those who've accepted me so far, all of them have told me that it will take a few to several weeks for them to post, which I'm totally happy with, since I get that instant gratification doesn't belong in this arena. It takes time. No one is going to pick up my book and read it the second they hit "send" in acceptance of my request. Hell, it took my own husband 3 weeks to complete it because we're so busy over here. So I get that bloggers aren't concerned with the ants in any author's pants. I won't start wondering about any of those blogger reviews until summer.

So when I say I want to know quickly, I mean as quickly as this writing world will allow. I don't want to find out in 5 years when I'm 3 or 4 books deep.

To be honest, you should know deep inside of you whatever anyone else says. Trust to your artistic vision that made you want to sit down and start writing in the first place

Back in the day, I used to watch American Idol - when Simon Cowell was on the show. Hoards of tone-deaf auditioners were sure that deep inside, they had a talent for singing and just needed a venue to be discovered. Cowell rightfully burst a lot of those bubbles, whether they believed him or not. Deep down inside is one thing; I don't need to tell anyone that it can be an important driving force. But a reality check is vital if that lifeline is to thrive in a world of readers who aren't concerned with the author's dreams. They just want a compelling, page-turning story.

Well I disagree with that last line, but let's not go down that particular road to nowhere, different readers want different things.

a sense of reality and proportion are both vital, I agree, but they only come from a realistic appreciation of just what it is one wants to achieve as a writer, what it means to one to be a writer and these sorts of reflective issues that can only be answered by a rigorous interrogation of one's artistic vision.

Quoleena wrote: "Yes, of all those who've accepted me so far, all of them have told me that it will take a few to several weeks for them to post, which I'm totally happy with, since I get that instant gratification..."

Sounds as though you're approaching it thoughtfully, and have learned what to expect. There was a time when a writer could submit short stories to magazines before venturing deeper into the business morass of writing. It was a way to learn the craft without embarrassing yourself, and find out if you had anything to say. It's the way I learned, turning out truly awful stuff that never saw the light of day, but I'm not sure how much of that is available to new writers today. And even if it is, it's too easy to self publish, and most new writers won't have the patience to do it the hard (and recommended) way.

Marc wrote: "Well I disagree with that last line, but let's not go down that particular road to nowhere, different readers want different things.

a sense of reality and proportion are both vital, I agree, but ..."

Yep. And as you pointed out, the self-publishing arena is flooded with people who don't do that.

And yes, different readers want different things. Can't please everyone, but at least there are categories to sift through and book descriptions as a place to start. I'm not going to crack open a book if it doesn't appeal to me. And when I do, I hope it appeals to me enough to compel me to finish it. And if I finish it, I want to have enjoyed it.

Marc wrote: "new writers just don't care. each imagines we are going to be the next big thing and that can blind us to anything and everything about the industry"

Please don't lump all "new writers" together. I've only recently started publishing and, frankly, I know I won't be the "next big thing". Ratings and reviews are nice when I can get them, good or bad, but I don't seek them out and don't really think about it much. I write to have fun and that's really about it. I'm having a ball with it. Fame, money, reviews, ratings... none of this is as important to me as just enjoying what I do.

The quarterly sales report and the royalty check that accompanies it is the only truly objective measurement of how many readers thought enough of an author's book to expend effort, time, and money to obtain and read it, even though some of them may not like it afterwards. (Reminder: Reviews, at least the honest ones, are subjective.)

The practices of some authors constantly giving away their work for free and/or soliciting, purchasing, and swapping reviews may provide them with a lot of reviews, but it doesn't provide a true indication of whether or not their book is a good read or even that it is actually being read.

A.W. wrote: "Here's another example I encountered recently, an author went through and 1-starred my entire catalogue. They then contacted me and said they would remove their 1-stars if I placed 5-star ratings on their entire catalogue. I didn't realise rating blackmail was a new way for desperate indies to increase their average. I reported the person concerned to Goodreads."

WOW! And here I'd thought I'd heard everything regarding how *some* bad apples are gaming the system and tainting ratings and reviews.

I'm glad you reported them, and I appreciate being made aware of this tactic.

Quoleena wrote: "Marc wrote: "new writers just don't care. each imagines we are going to be the next big thing and that can blind us to anything and everything about the industry"

Not all new writers. For example,..."

Applause!

Jim wrote: "The quarterly sales report and the royalty check that accompanies it is the only truly objective measurement of how many readers thought enough of an author's book to expend effort, time, and money..."

Perhaps over time. But I can tell you I've purchased bucketloads of books I ended up not liking, so I wouldn't say sales can tell you how people like a book, or that it's objectively a "good read".

There are poor authors out there with slick marketing practices that do a very good job convincing a lot of people to purchase a book that in reality is not a "good read".

Dwayne wrote: "Marc wrote: "new writers just don't care. each imagines we are going to be the next big thing and that can blind us to anything and everything about the industry"

Please don't lump all "new writer..."

I found your comment very interesting, because I agree with you. I would love to get a review on my book just to see what someone really thinks of the story, but really, I write for fun. I would love to actually write something that would get noticed, but I work full-time and have two kids, so writing is a hobby, not my profession. It keeps me sane in a world that is totally insane. I still try to write to please an audience, but I refuse to change my style to appeal to a mass audience.

I exclude hobby writers from those believing they can become professionals or at least earn a living wage from writing

JANNA wrote: "I found your comment very interesting, because I agree with you. I would love to get a review on my book just to see what someone really thinks of the story, but really, I write for fun. I would love to actually write something that would get noticed, but I work full-time and have two kids, so writing is a hobby, not my profession. It keeps me sane in a world that is totally insane. I still try to write to please an audience, but I refuse to change my style to appeal to a mass audience. "

Right. I think if we want an audience, the best thing to do is wait. Sooner or later, our audience will find us. We can't write to appeal to the masses as we don't know exactly what the masses want and I, for one, won't change my direction, my style, etc. just to try to get a larger audience. And you can't please everyone, so there's no point in trying. Even best selling authors can't please everyone.

For many years I really only wrote for myself. I'm curious to see what others think of my stories, sure, but if they don't care for them, fine. Sooner or later I will be found by people that enjoy what I do. In the meantime, I keep busy like you with a full time job, a part time job, a lovely wife and three dogs. If there are indeed enough people out there with tastes strange enough that I begin to make the money I would need to do this full time, so be it. In the meantime, I'm content with writing when I can and living the rest of my life around it.

I enjoy reading books and then sharing my personal opinion of them with others. I have included reviews of 122 books in my Goodreads profile. Every one of those books was purchased or borrowed from the local library. I have not and will never purchase a book written by an author who solicits, purchases, or swaps reviews, nor will I accept the offer of a free one.

Ken wrote: "In fact, I'm hoping that at some future point we'll have a whole new genre called "laughably bad writers," and that those who are currently committing fraud on their readers will have their names prominently listed. ..."

It's been tried and the reviewer who tried to let readers know which authors should be avoided is MIA after receiving numerous threats from those same authors. Another whistle-blower has been banned from this site for exposing unethical author behavior in the area of reviews.

Money does make the world turn - whether we like it or not.

I would love to read your book and give you a review as well as having you do the same for me. I have my first book published and I'm currently working on my second one. I would love to review my first one.

Irony klaxon

The topic appears to be a polarising one, which is a shame as I imagine most of us are in the same boat, trying to forge a profile in a ocean of writers with the same goal.

Some of us may have 2 reviews, some 102, but we're all still minnows swimming in the same direction, it's a shame we can't form a cohesive shoal.

Sorry about the metaphors. Taking a cheeky break from writing to post this. I'll now get my nose back to the grindstone as the coal face won't excavate itself.

Cphe wrote: "The thing with author review circles is that they invariably give each other 5 stars.

In all the years I've been on Amazon (and buying books) I can not recall ever clicking on both author reviews..."

And aren't they just too noticeable?

A friend and I share a website and, to increase the likelihood of being noticed, we feature two other authors, and they do the same in return.

We're not interested in becoming a "gallery" for others, but we do have room for, perhaps, two more.

One lady who has a page on our website, as we do on hers, suggested another author. Obviously we want to be careful so I checked his book on Amazon. The "look inside" was very readable, and a genre we don't have, but all nine of his reviews were 5 star.

When I checked further I found a blank Author Page, all but another picture of his book. Conclusion? He wants others to do his marketing while he sits back and does nothing. I wonder if I would dug as deep but for those ALL 5 star reviews.

First rule of marketing: Don't complicate the obvious.

There are threads, within almost every literary website's discussion groups, specifically designated for self-promotion. Authors may introduce their work, provide an overview of the storyline or subject matter, provide reasons why someone might enjoy reading their book, and a list of the vendors from whom someone can purchase a copy.

If that someone decides to read the book, they will obtain a copy and read it; if they don't they won't. If that someone wishes to rate and review the book they have read, they will; if they don't they won't.

why authors have no right to ask anything of a reader, especially not to demand a review:

http://sulcicollective.blogspot.co.uk...

Marc wrote: "why authors have no right to ask anything of a reader, especially not to demand a review:

http://sulcicollective.blogspot.co.uk..."

I can't demand and I won't (or seldom) ask but, boy, do I do a lot of wishing and hoping ;o)

in the silence of your own home, that's fine :-)

Well, said Cphe. And the best way to interact with readers is to get out there among them, as a reader.

I've heard authors say that reviews are important, so I'm guessing it must be a genre thing. For my own books, in the Science Fiction genre, reviews have had absolutely no effect on sales. My best-selling book at the moment has no reviews. My other books have fair-to-excellent reviews, but sold no better, or worse, after they were reviewed than before they had any reviews. So, for me at least, the scramble for as many reviews as possible seems pointless.

Ken wrote: "I've heard authors say that reviews are important, so I'm guessing it must be a genre thing. For my own books, in the Science Fiction genre, reviews have had absolutely no effect on sales. My bes..."

I hear you and think this is probably the case for many authors. The review wheel has taken on a life of its own and gained far more importance than it's actually worth. I think we can blame a lot of the unethical practices for that situation.

As an author I don't understand the scramble for reviews. It's not like it's a competition, or is it, in which case I missed the memo? I set my books free in the world and if they garner reviews (or how many) is entirely in the hands of legitimate readers.

I believe part of the problem is an urban myth doing the rounds that reviews in some mysterious fashion, affect sales via the Amazon algorithms. I have seen authors soliciting for fake reviews so they can reach 100 at which point apparently Amazon is supposed to sprinkle your book with magic fairy dust and it hits the NYT list. I've lost count of how many times I have tried politely to point out the rumour is crap. There's one thing that affects sales rank - sales.

As a reader I discount 5-star reviews due to issues with author review swaps, sock puppets and buying them on Fiverr. I usually check out the 1 & 2 star reviews to see if there is anything that might dissuade me from buying like consistent comments about flat characters, slow pacing or poor editing. As an adult, I am quite capable of separating out the troll 1-star reviews just like I can spot the 5-stars your family left (the ones that never actually read the book but thought they should support you).

Ultimately though nothing beats great word of mouth. If a friend gushes to me about the latest book she read you can pretty much guarantee I'll go buy it and won't even look at ratings, reviews or averages :)

I've seen this too as an author and it's part of the reason I'm careful when I post. I never understand when Authors spam their works, I guess some think this way is going to get them notice and it will alright just not in the way they'd like. A.W. made a good point about not being sure why authors scramble for reviews and I couldn't agree more. While there are plenty of places to ask for reviews there is no reason an author should spam a thread in all of them they can't find in hopes for getting one. Getting a reviewer is one thing but doing it in desperation is another, it's also not necessary.

The best thing to do as an author looking for a review is to at first think like a Reader. When you are looking for books to read for review how do you see it and how do you go about it? Take that and then think of it in the same way as an author, this way you know to be courteous and proper when going about looking for reviews.

Henry wrote: "...This is how it should work. Readers interact with other readers, and discover new authors to read...No spam, no soliciting, no swaps . . . none of the BS...If only the new authors would learn this, Goodreads just might be a nicer place to visit. ..."

Henry - If every author took one minute and thought about what you said here, they would realize this is the only way to truly promote your books. Promote yourself by being a reader and an honest and professional person. The people who interact with you, may or may not read and review your books. But if they do - they will do it honestly and because they wanted to. That's the way it's supposed to be.

A.W. wrote: "As an author I don't understand the scramble for reviews..."

There is one reason why some try to garner reviews that I don't think anyone's mentioned: there are promotional sites that won't consider accepting books that have fewer than X number of reviews. Some of those sites won't accept books that have below a 4-star average. While not in any way condoning writers who encourage their family and friends to pile on with 5-star reviews, I can see why they are tempted to do it.

Other than that, I agree with most of what is being said on here. Any review obtained as the result of an author exchange is ikely to be viewed by readers with deep suspicion, no matter how honestly the review is written.

authors miss the first basic step by focusing on reviews. How to make the readers out there aware of your existence so that they come and browse your books in the first place. No awareness of your existence, no browsing, reviews therefore irrelevant at this juncture.

Marc wrote: "authors miss the first basic step by focusing on reviews. How to make the readers out there aware of your existence so that they come and browse your books in the first place. No awareness of your ..."

This is true, but reviews can help publicise a book if you use them. Those with good titles... not just "a good read" etc. can be used in tweets. If it's clear they are copied from reviews it's a form of endorsement: even better if friends use them for you, & friends are the only ones who can find your book at first, when you've told them the title :-)

A.W. wrote: "As an author I don't understand the scramble for reviews. It's not like it's a competition, or is it, in which case I missed the memo? I set my books free in the world and if they garner reviews (o..."

Please read the whole of this comment carefully to find a mention of a purchase.

I don't need suing so I'm being careful but a certain company "sells" many things, some of them desirable & sensibly priced.

I think it's enough to say Paypal recovered my cash.

Sam wrote: "A.W. wrote: "As an author I don't understand the scramble for reviews..."

There is one reason why some try to garner reviews that I don't think anyone's mentioned: there are promotional sites that..."

I appreciate your comment, because being new to the writing world, I was told the only way to get noticed was to get reviews (as many as I could). I joined this site primarily to engage with readers and ask for reviews. Now I am thinking that this was the wrong way to go about things. I don't want to do review swaps or pay people for reviews, which I won't do. I don't have a marketing background and admit to being completely lost as to how to sell my book, so I also offer it for free and hope that people read it. I don't think at this point that I will ever make a living off of writing as most writers do not unless you are well-established like Stephen King, but I hope that somehow my book does get read eventually. I don't know that is wrong to ask for reviews since people generally want to know what others are thinking of their craft. In addition, for me, it's about knowing whether or not to keep writing at all since I do have a full-time job and kids. Reviews are nice, but I don't think I will be asking for them anymore.