Into the Forest discussion

Fairy Tale Helpers won by a hair!

Now, on to the next step. Let's nominate some books with prominent fairy tale helpers.

Fairy godmothers, magic boots, helpful strangers, talking animals, they're all fair game.

Thanks for starting this Melanti!
This is going to be fun! We're nominating one original tale,one YA retelling and one adult retelling, right?
If any needs ideas here are some links:


http://www.surlalunefairytales.com
https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/9...
https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/1...
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

What about Deathless by Catherynne M. Valente? Marya has several helpers along the way. But I think we have already read this one?

Should the book focus primarily on the helper or be from the helper's perspective to qualify for this theme? Or does any fairy tale or retelling that contains a helper qualify?

Do nominate the book if you can find one from the helper's perspective. I am a bit stymied by this theme.

Well, Puss in Boots focuses on the helper. I found the retelling Master Cat by David Garnett in the Wikipedia article on adaptations of Puss in Boots. It's also available through my library system's inter-library loan network.

Definitely nominate books from the helper's POC if you have a good one but I know that's probably too limiting... I'm just asking that the helper plays a significant role and is there for more than a handful of pages.

I can post some ideas when I'm at a computer later on tonight.

Shomeret wrote: "Should the book focus primarily on the helper or be from the helper's perspective to qualify for this theme? Or does any fairy tale or retelling that contains a helper qualify?"

I agree with Melanti that if there is anything from the helpers PoV it could be interesting, but to keep our options open the books could be any tale with a helper. The most important, I think is that the books nominated be based on, or at least inspired by, a fairy or folk tale or myth.

Kathy wrote: "What about Deathless by Catherynne M. Valente? Marya has several helpers along the way. But I think we have already read this one?"

I don't think we've read it in this group, at least not since I've been in it.


One helper that always intrigued me as a child was the French tale White Cat by Madame d'Aulnoy.
Unfortunately I have not yet been able to find any novels based on it.

Deathless would work, from what I've heard, and it's been on my TBR forever. This group hasn't read it yet, but it's made its rounds on other fantasy oriented groups on Goodreads.

Some original tales that have significant helper presences are:
Puss in Boots
Dick Whittington and His Cat
Rumpelstiltskin (He's a combo of both a helper and a villain.)
Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
Firebird
Cinderella (Some versions, anyway)

Some books from the helper's point of view that I can think of off the top of my head are:
Whittington
Tiger Lily
The Coachman Rat (I swear this is the WEIRDEST fairy tale retelling I've ever read... more philosophy than fairy tale)
Book of a Thousand Days
Curse of the Thirteenth Fey: The True Tale of Sleeping Beauty (I warn you that most people didn't seem to like the other Yolen book that was nominated earlier this year so make sure you really want to read it before nominating!)

There's also several books with archives of magical items:
The Grimm Legacy
Discord's Apple

Don't limit yourself to this list of course! I'm sure there's LOTs more that I haven't thought of, and we're really not that strict on anything other than the fairy tale/myth connection.

Possibly Caliban's Hour by Tad Williams? And not sure if Shakespeare counts as a fairy tale. Not necessarily a "nice" helper. Eventually I will decide on a book to nominate for sure.

Stray by Elissa Sussman

A newer young adult book, published in October 2014, I read it earlier this month and it definitely fits the Jan-Feb theme as the fairy godmothers are primary characters. I don't want to say too much more, though, and give away plot points. Heavily influenced by Cinderella, but also incorporates elements from fairy tales in general.

Mira, Mirror by Mette Ivie Harrison

This one sounds really fun: Snow White from the mirror's POV.

Hmmm. . . why does this inspire the pedantic desire to observe that Vladimir Propp divided the helper from the donor, which would be the fairy godmother, and the helper. Looks like this is covering both.

For original fairy tale, I nominate Cendrillon: A Caribbean Cinderella, which is translated by Robert D. San Souci and which is indeed told from the fairy godmother's perspective. It's a French Creole tale. (We already have it on the bookshelves, but since it doesn't have a date, I figure it's not been a monthly read.)

The Treachery of Beautiful Things by Ruth Frances Long features a lot of fairy lore in a Tam Lin like tale -- and one fay that's obliged to help anyone on a quest. He's one of the point of view characters.

adult. . .hmmmm. . . I will nominate Except the Queen by Jane Yolen and Midori Snyder. Two fairy sisters find themselves dumped out into our world -- stripped of their magic which means, among other things, that they are now Women of A Certain Age -- and in due course -- drat, telling you how it fits would be a spoiler. Uses a lot of fairy lore and Baba Yaga, if not retelling a definite tale.

In the world of Stray, all females have the potential for magic, which is not a desirable talent and, if manifested, must remain hidden from everyone - their parents, siblings, friends, etc. - who are bound by law to report them. During early adolescence, the girls who demonstrate uncontrollable powers - i.e., the inability to repress their magic - are viewed as straying from the Path. Those girls are removed from their current status/Path and placed into lifelong servitude (fairy godmothers) to other princesses and high-class females of the kingdom. So, in this instance, the fairy godmothers are not donors.

Nice nominations Mary & Leah.

Leah wrote: "So, in this instance, the fairy godmothers are not donors. "

Actually, does not follow from this description. One reason Propp preferred "donor" to a more literal translation is the donors can be involuntary. More important, if the task of the fairy godmother is make the heroine all spiffy, it's a donor.

I'd like to nominate for our adult re-telling Sleeping in Flame by
Jonathan Carroll.
It is supposed to be a Rumpelstiltskin retelling and because it's also on the Endicott list, it would also count for our challenge. According to Goodreads it is a 2nd book in a series, however because it's on its own on the Endicott list, I suspect it is more a case of being set in the same universe rather than a continuing story. However if anyone here is familiar with the series and thinks otherwise, please let me know!
For YA I have not decided yet. Several of the books mentioned Except the Queen and The Treachery of Beautiful Things have been on my to read list got a while and some of the others nominated look good too.
For original tale I nominate The White Cat by D'Aulnoy

For YA, I'll nominate Merlin's Booke by Jane Yolen, a collection of short stories from Merlin's perspective. He would count as a helper, right?

For Adult, The Woodcutter by Kate Danley, a little red riding hood retelling told from the woodcutter's pov, looks like a murder mystery. I noticed Melanti has read it and didn't give it a high rating, however.

For original, I'll nominate Costantino Fortunato by Giovan Francesco Straparola. Supposed to be the oldest Puss in Boots on record.

I'm really enjoying all the nominations - especially the original tales!

Margaret wrote: "I noticed Melanti has read it and didn't give it a high rating, however. ..."

You're forgiven for nominating The Woodcutter because I really liked Merlin's Booke.

I don't recall exactly what it was that I didn't like about The Woodcutter though... I think it was sort of choppy and rushed in places and could have used a good editor? It couldn't have been anything really horrible though, otherwise I would have written a review.

Mary wrote: "Hmmm. . . why does this inspire the pedantic desire to observe that Vladimir Propp divided the helper from the donor, which would be the fairy godmother, and the helper. Looks like this is coverin..."

I've got to admit that I'd never heard of a donor in this context 'til now or of Propp... Sorry!

Mary wrote: "More important, if the task of the fairy godmother is make the heroine all spiffy, it's a donor."

Mary, I'd love to discuss with you further, but I cannot without giving away too much for anyone who hasn't read Stray yet.

I think the donor versus helper would be an interesting conversation with whatever books are chosen. I haven't read Propp before, but I own Morphology of the Folktale, and see that donor is listed in the index. I'll probably read about donors in that book, and I saw a decent overview on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donor_%2...

Melanti wrote: "I'm really enjoying all the nominations - especially the original tales!

Margaret wrote: "I noticed Melanti has read it and didn't give it a high rating, however. ..."

You're forgiven for nomin..."

So I nominated 2 you've already read! I'm glad you enjoyed Merlin's Booke. My husband gave it to me for Christmas, and then promptly read it himself the day after!

I'm going to nominate The Godmother by Elizabeth Ann Scarborough for the adult read.

Lacey

Puss in Boots yes, The Musicians of Bremen Town, Pook of Pook's Hill by Rudyard Kipling, Celtic Fairy Tales selected and edited by John Batten. There are lots of tales that would fit this category of a helper .

Carole wrote: "Puss in Boots yes, The Musicians of Bremen Town, Pook of Pook's Hill by Rudyard Kipling, Celtic Fairy Tales selected and edited by John Batten. There are lots of tales that would fit this category..."

There are thousands of fairy tales that would fit it. But the fun part is nominating novels that run on the theme. I was wrestling with my YA nomination, but only between Treachery and The 13 Clocks.

Margaret wrote: "I think the donor versus helper would be an interesting conversation with whatever books are chosen."

Me, too!

Margaret wrote: "I haven't read Propp before..."

Me, either, so I read that Wiki article and a few articles on university sites covering Propp's theories before I replied to Mary. I love to analyze and learn.

On a different note, there are so many good nominations for this theme - fun, fun, fun!

Leah wrote: "Margaret wrote: "I think the donor versus helper would be an interesting conversation with whatever books are chosen."

Me, too! ..."

We can definitely discuss it. It sounds like an interesting topic.



Kathy, did you nominate Deathless? If not, I'll nominate it!


I'm still considering my YA and original choices.

So here's the nominations so far. Please let me know if I skipped something or if I added something that wasn't intended to be a nomination.

Original:
White Cat by Madame d'Aulnoy
Cendrillon: A Caribbean Cinderella, which is translated by Robert D. San Souci
Costantino Fortunato by Giovan Francesco Straparola (Early version of "Puss in Boots")
The Death of Koschei the Deathless/Maria Morevna
The Golden Bird from Grimm's


Adult:
Deathless by Catherynne M. Valente
Except the Queenby Jane Yolen and Midori Snyder.
Sleeping in Flame by Jonathan Carroll.
The Woodcutter by Kate Danley
The Godmother by Elizabeth Ann Scarborough

YA
Stray by Elissa Sussman
Mira, Mirror by Mette Ivie Harrison
The Treachery of Beautiful Things by Ruth Frances Long
Merlin's Booke by Jane Yolen
Master Cat by David Garnett
For Biddle's Sake by Gail Carson Levine

Melanti wrote: "Leah wrote: "Margaret wrote: "I think the donor versus helper would be an interesting conversation with whatever books are chosen."

Me, too! ..."

We can definitely discuss it. It sounds like an..."

I love Deathless, and it certainly has a lot of helpers.

As much as I love Valente, I haven't gotten to this one yet.

I always like reading her books/stories in as close to one sitting as possible - so I generally only read her if I have a day (or weekend) off with absolutely nothing planned. She's pretty dense and it takes me awhile to really get into her books, so they're really not something that I can pick up and put down like I can other authors. (The sole exception being her Fairyland books.) I endlessly put off anything by her that's longer than novella length. Shame on me!


But I hear there's a sequel/companion book coming out sometime this year, so I better hurry up!

Melanti wrote: "As much as I love Valente, I haven't gotten to this one yet.

I always like reading her books/stories in as close to one sitting as possible - so I generally only read her if I have a day (or wee..."

I've heard that too! And there's another Fairyland book coming this year, though I have yet to read the 3rd one (shame on me there).

Deathless is one of her less dense novels. Though it does get quite cerebral at the end. If I had to pick, it's my 3rd favorite of hers, with the two Orphan Tales novels being my favorites.

Also, she has a new novella coming out in segments on Clarkesworld! "The Long Goodnight of Violet Wild": http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/valen...

I have the Fairyland book on preorder. I can't swear that I'll read it the day it's released, but certainly within a week or two!

If Deathless isn't one of her denser ones, that's good! It'd be a bit more accessible for a group read then (and will move it up my TBR quite a bit.)

I'll bookmark the Clarksworld Link.

Yes, Deathless is still my nomination -- but lots of good others here also.

Melanti wrote: "So here's the nominations so far. Please let me know if I skipped something or if I added something that wasn't intended to be a nomination.

Original:
White Cat by Madame d'Aulnoy
[book:Cendrillo..."

The list looks good! There are 5 Adult novels and 5 YA, just enough to choose from!
May I suggest we add a few original tales to balance it out? For example to Russian tale which Deathless was based on?

I'll nominate The Death of Koshchei then as an original tale.

It can be found in Lang's The Red Fairy Book and also here: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Red...

It is also called Maria Morevna and a version is here: http://russian-crafts.com/tales/maria...

And also Marya Morevna

Okay, added.

We could use another tale or two for the original tales at least. I'll go through my collection when I get home and look for something interesting.

We're probably okay in the adult portion since we've got some well known and well liked authors there, but we could probably use another nomination or two in the YA section since a couple of the nominations are out of print.

Merlin's Booke has been in print recently enough (and often enough) that it should be easy to find, but Master Cat has been out of print since the mid 70's.

I know we ought to start the voting soon.. Tomorrow? Monday?

Last call for nominations!

What about The Golden Bird (Grimm's Tale # 57)

Just for Jalilah I'll nominate this for YA even though it's a bit young:

For Biddle's Sake

It's a retelling of Puddocky, which is the tale that d'Aulnoy based "The White Cat" off of (though with a TON of changes, it seems).

Kathy wrote: "What about The Golden Bird (Grimm's Tale # 57)"

Looks like a good one.

I recall Tiger Lily being mentioned -- if it's not an official YA nomination, I'd like to nominate it now. :)

Okay, polls are up!

https://www.goodreads.com/poll/list/3...

Deathless and Tiger Lily won for the Adult and YA retelling. For original tales there was a tie between the White Cat and The Death of Koshchei-Maria Morevea

I'm going to skip Tiger Lily. I try to keep up with all the group reads, but I've never read Peter Pan, and I'd rather wait to read Tiger Lily until I've read Peter Pan.

Margaret wrote: "I'm going to skip Tiger Lily. I try to keep up with all the group reads, but I've never read Peter Pan, and I'd rather wait to read Tiger Lily until I've read Peter Pan."

I have not read the original Peter Pan either Margaret. We had a LP record Disney film as a kid and I remember vaguely going to see the movie as a wee little one and being frightened of Captain Cook. I also saw a play, so as a kid I never really felt the need to read the original book. Over the years I developed an aversion to Peter Pan when the term came "Peter Pan complex" to mean men who did not want to grow up. Anyway I was reluctant to read The Child Thiefby Brom when it was voted as our adult retelling for our group read a couple of years ago, but I ended up really liking it!
Anyways I am going to read Tiger Lily once I finish what I'm reading now. It certainly got mixed reviews ranging from 5 to 1 stars!
I have my reservations about Deathless as I've tried 2 books by Catherynne M. Valente and never made it past the first few pages!

Jalilah wrote: "Margaret wrote: "I'm going to skip Tiger Lily. I try to keep up with all the group reads, but I've never read Peter Pan, and I'd rather wait to read Tiger Lily until I've read Peter Pa..."

I have vague memories of seeing the movie as well, and we had a cat growing up named Tiger Lily, so my sisters must have enjoyed the movie:) I've also seen Hook and Finding Neverland. I checked my library, and they have it, so maybe I'll give it a try.

I hope you enjoy Deathless! It begins lovely, but that's from my perspective. I'll be interested in what you think.

Jalilah wrote: "Margaret wrote: "I'm going to skip Tiger Lily. I try to keep up with all the group reads, but I've never read Peter Pan, and I'd rather wait to read Tiger Lily until I've read Peter Pa..."

My friends and I played a sort of role playing game of Peter Pan when we were children, so I have a kind of sentimental attachment to Peter Pan and I've done a lot of thinking about why some children love Peter Pan. Tiger Lily is my favorite character in the Peter Pan mythos, but I couldn't read this novel. I tried to read it when it was first released. It was a DNF for me. I hated the way Tiger Lily was portrayed.

Shomeret wrote: "Jalilah wrote: "Margaret wrote: "I'm going to skip Tiger Lily. I try to keep up with all the group reads, but I've never read Peter Pan, and I'd rather wait to read Tiger Lily until I'..."

Hmm. I must say, I wouldn't normally pick it up based on the description. However, since I can get it at the library, I might read the first few chapters and if I'm not liking it, I'll return it.

Shomeret wrote: "Jalilah wrote: "Margaret wrote: "I'm going to skip Tiger Lily. I try to keep up with all the group reads, but I've never read Peter Pan, and I'd rather wait to read Tiger Lily until I'..."

Hi Shomeret, if you feel like sharing your opinions on Tiger Lily in our Spoilers thread for Tiger Lily, that would be great! In general I am liking the novel, but as I said I have not read the original Peter Pan. Now I want to! It would be good to have some comparisons between the two Tiger Lilys!