SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

This post is to those "people" putting forth nominations or chatting in the what are you currently reading thread about The Tale of Atlantis. We were tipped off by the mods over at the Sword and Laser that the discussion of this book in the what are you currently reading was word for word the same in their thread as in ours and on close inspection looked very suspicious. We deleted the comments and booted the members from the group. I just noticed that some new "members" just nominated and seconded this book on our Feburary poll.

I think this kind of behaviour is terrible and not what this site is all about and I wanted more than just the mods to know about it. Please look out for talk about this book on any other group you're a member of and let the mods know. I'd be happy to provide them with details.

I'm wondering what was suspicious - I usually copy/paste my posts for what I'm reading in several different groups. I looked up that book after seeing it nominated and it sounds interesting, so now I'm all confused.

This was a conversation between three people in the exact same words. It's a promotion scam because it's being deceitful, doesn't make it a bad book, just makes me angry.

A member of S&L put me on to it. If you look at pictures of the members involved they are all lesser known (at least here in the US) Eastern European models. And as Penny said they copy pasted conversations. Now of course not everyone uses their own picture, and some people use pictures of actors (case and point I know Michele does), but it's more a matter what they were posting rather than the copy pasting.

It's one thing to copy and paste a what else are you reading post (I'm horribly guilty of this), but they were "bantering" back and forth about how much they liked the book.

I banned the accounts from Sword and Laser and let Penny know about it when I saw them doing it here. Both groups have a designated place for people to promote their work.

Kim just told the mod over at SciFi and Fantasy eBook Club and they found the same thing and they're booting a bunch of members too.

Geez. Do they not realize how much overlap there is the SFF community here on good reads?

I had this book down for a challenge I'm doing. Now I'm pissed too and I'll have to find another book.

can we call "tales of atlantis" situation Asro-turf vs. grassroots?

Rob wrote: "Geez. Do they not realize how much overlap there is the SFF community here on good reads?"

I know right?

Sarah wrote: "I had this book down for a challenge I'm doing. Now I'm pissed too and I'll have to find another book."

Lots of good pickings on the fantasy poll that'll be up on 1 Jan :)

Excellent :)

There were other telltale signs. All the "members" were brand new and only had 1 comment each. The book has high reviews only.

And those profiles that weren't set to private were friends with one another.

The profiles that had more than 1 comment were only about that book and nothing else.

There are many members who write seriously and are great contributers to this group. I keep an eye out for their comments and am interested in what they have to say and how they choose to say it. thems that was shilling "tales of atlantis" were a different sort.

I find part of this funny because they tried to nominate the book as a sci-fi, climate change book which Kim astutely noticed was neither and booted the book. Funny because our mods are on the job, not so funny if it would have been successful.

Now you have to go find the author who added her book to our bookshelf listopia list...probably unintentionally...possibly not.

We've seen them pop up in the Flights of Fantasy group, and promptly removed them. Some of our people had seen them here and other places, which clued us in right away.

Hank wrote: "Now you have to go find the author who added her book to our bookshelf listopia list...probably unintentionally...possibly not."

Has been removed.

Hank wrote: "not so funny if it would have been successful."

I have seen another group where it is ranking highly in a poll.

Chris wrote: "We've seen them pop up in the Flights of Fantasy group, and promptly removed them. Some of our people had seen them here and other places, which clued us in right away."

We've been reaching out to mods in other groups as we come across them to let them know.

15 reviews make it a bit suspicious (although it's true you have to have 15 before 1500). However though, the cover art looks suspiciously like Ryse Son of Rome. Could be a coincidence! But the whole ball of wax is highly questionable. Glad you pulled it.

A quick google image search finds that the background seems to be taken from 'The Last Day of Pompeii': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last...

Kudos to the eagle-eyed guardians for doing a great job. Astroturfers annoy the hell out of me.

I couldn't resist and it was available through Kindle Unlimited so I checked it out - I read about 3 pages and that was enough. Bad/weird grammar - like someone who is not a native English speaker. Glad I didn't pay for it.

I reported these events to Goodreads and I just got a response from them (very quick as I only reported this yesterday):

"Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Creating fake accounts for the sole purpose of promoting a book or inflating a book's ratings average is prohibited.  We have looked into the accounts you reported, and as several of the them raised a number of our standard red flags for illegitimacy, they have been removed from the site."

I really hope we get them all, but if not I hope we've at least raised some awareness among readers.

I have to say that I love that the mods in various groups are communicating with each other and Goodreads. It gives me a lot of faith in my groups and the site.

Just noticed that the book now has 6 ratings and 2 reviews after the fake accounts have been deleted. Good on Goodreads! :) Goes to show how many fake accounts there were.

Thanks Sarah, I just think it's such a great community.

Yeah, I can't speak for the site as a whole, but the SFF community on here is very good. I wish I had found it sooner than I did.

Michele wrote: "I couldn't resist and it was available through Kindle Unlimited so I checked it out - I read about 3 pages and that was enough. Bad/weird grammar - like someone who is not a native English speaker...."

I don't understand why people try to hoodwink readers like this. Surely if the book's that bad, people who are tricked into buying it will just return it? How do they gain from these scams?

Marina wrote: "I don't understand why people try to hoodwink readers like this. Surely if the book's that bad, people who are tricked into buying it will just return it? How do they gain from these scams?..."

Not sure how they gain, but so many seem to think they'll gain something. Maybe it's so they can call themselves authors, and they don't care about anything else. But it's a problem, and the reputation of the self-publishing industry suffers as a result.

I can't speak for others, but I very frequently buy books and don't get to them until after the return period is up.

Ah. I didn't realise there was a time limit on returns. That could be it. Although I would have thought most people would read the Look Inside before buying ...

Sadly, no. I do check reviews, which would not have helped in this situation. Apparently I need to upgrade my shopping skills. :)

Marina wrote: "Ah. I didn't realise there was a time limit on returns. That could be it. Although I would have thought most people would read the Look Inside before buying ..."

I usually check a sample, but I can see situations where people wouldn't... like the book gets selected for a group read or someone suggests it for a difficult theme in book bingo. But regardless of that, chances are the author doesn't believe the book is badly written, so wouldn't assume that people will return it. If a book was well-written, it could take off from this sort of scheme before anyone realised what was happening, as real readers would also start discussing it.

I would be a lot more careful if I read fewer books. When it's one book of 20 my time is a lot more valuable than when it's one of 250. I am far more skeptical of reviews on indie books.

If this guy had promoted his book the more traditional way, odds are I would have bought it.

Man, that is really disappointing. Put that much effort into marketing your books in a legit way and you may just get the sales you're looking for.

Kudos to these awesome groups for going all Sherlock Holmes on their asses.

As a self published author, I would like to comment here about this sort of promotional activity.

First off, thank you, moderators, for drawing the line and being vigilant. People read because it is enjoyable, and when authors pull tricks like this, it poisons the entire experience. It not only gives a bad reputation to yourself, but to other authors in the community. So again, thank you moderators. No one is paying you to be our guardian angel, so let me offer the only currency I can; respect.

To authors: I understand that the reasons people choose to write are many and varied. Some are hoping to make a bundle of money, others are hoping to achieve some fame or recognition, many more are simply inspired to create. If your hopes are more on the return your writing will produce for you, then please continue reading this post.

Stephen King once said, "If I really thought this story needed defending, I never would have published it," (the exact wording was probably different, but the meaning is the same). What he said was some of the best advice any writer could ever get. If your story has the strength to stand on its own, then it will eventually find its way to lots of readers. If you need to pull tricks like deceptive reader reception or artificially generated reviews, then your novel likely won't make you very much money no matter what you do. Look at the case here. Perhaps the author deceived enough people in passing to sell an extra hundred copies of the book, but he/she has generated a lot of ill will. People who were interested in reading the book are now turned off by it. Long term sales have likely been effected for the worse, and the reputation of the author has taken a hit. Anything new published under this name from now on will likely not be received well even before story descriptions are read. Was that worth a few extra dollars here and now?

So, my fellow authors, here is my advice. Create the best story you can, put it out there, talk about it honestly, and give it time to mature. Since my own publications, I have seen my weekly sales slowly but steadily climb. If your story is enjoyable, it will be successful without much help from you, (especially without any dirty tricks). Marketing is nice, but the only thing that really sells a book is its contents.

-Damien Lake (Chronicles of the Crimson Kings)

Ok, having slept on it, I realized there was one more possibility here. In the interest of fairness, it should probably be mentioned.

It is possible the author is also a victim here. There are lots of groups popping up these days claiming to be able to help authors market their books across the Internet and in fan forums. The author might have paid the asking fee, thinking it would just involve a marketing group doing advertising posts to hundreds of sci-fi/fantasy groups. This whole stunt might have been a ploy by such a group that they never bothered to tell the author about. If that is the case, then the author could well be just as disgusted by this event as the readers.

If so, it illustrates another point. These groups are multiplying by the month, looking for an easy buck off smaller writers. If an author devices to hire a publicity assistant, then he/she needs to make certain they understand exactly what methods the publicity marketers are going to employ. Otherwise, you could hurt your reputation badly.

I have no idea if that is what happened, but it is a thought.

-Damien Lake (Chronicles of the Crimson Kings)

Read up about "persona management software". Software designed to make it easier for astroturfing and can be used in all sorts of ways. Can be scary.

Is this Robert Stanek or something? Sounds like the type of thing he'd do.

Damien wrote: "I realized there was one more possibility here. In the interest of fairness, it should probably be mentioned.

It is possible the author is also a victim here. There are lot..."

For real, I'm sure I'm not the only one that gets at least an email per week with the following text:
-------------------
"Some of the ways I can help you are (ANY one of the following services you purchase will cost you 15 USD, discounts are available if you purchase more than one service at a time; BLABLABLA SPECIAL OFFER: Buy (a), (b) (c), (d), (e) (f) and (h) for just 85 USD instead of 105 USD!):

a) I can post 1 honest, detailed, insightful and helpful review on your book. This review will highlight all the positive aspects of your book and enlighten your future readers regarding the real essence and worth of your book. The book review is written by an avid book reader and Native English speaker so you can be assured of quality.

b) I can promote your book on social media sites (Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, Reddit, etc). You get 100% targeted traffic from book readers located in English speaking countries.

c) MORE BLABLABLABLA"
----------------

I'm telling you, why, as a writer trying to make my name, would I like anyone to "falsely" promote my writing. Like Damien says if the writing is good enough it will surely find its way to the people that are interested in it. I already feel uncomfortable asking for R4R, let alone pay someone to put a fake review...

Kudos for the mods in spotting such things. Now back to the batcave for more writing!

I have read a few indie books that authors have promoted on Goodreads. Only one self-published was worth reading. I noticed that, after I wrote my review, quite a few of my Goodreads friends added the book. So I believe that true reviews do have an impact!

A.J. wrote: "Damien wrote: "I realized there was one more possibility here. In the interest of fairness, it should probably be mentioned.

It is possible the author is also a victim here. There are lot..."

For..."
Sounds like the gold rush days of the 19th century. It wasn't the thousands of prospectors who got rich, it was the merchants supplying the prospectors with the tools, supplies, and services who got rich.

No matter what the industry you are always going to get scammers and con artists trying their luck. It amazes me though that people think they can get away with this stuff - yeah, some do , I know - but glad the scam was caught by the Mods.

Aha, the internet is wonderful...until it isn't. Scams, scams, scams, wherever you look or log on there are scams. Talk about being wise consumers, we all have to be wary.
Things can go from this unconscionable but rather innocuous behavior to out-and-out internet grifting. The emails I love most are those PR and marketing gurus who promise me a NY Times bestseller--whatever that is--if I only pay for their services. I even have one (like the villain in Harry Potter, he shall not be named) who threatened to no longer send his missives if I didn't participate more (probably required $$$), so I wrote him to go ahead--I wanted to unsubscribe. I still get his crap! (First time I ever set a particular email address to go directly to spam.)
OK, I guess pirating books is worse. I have mixed feelings about that. My books are so low priced, I don't know why anyone would bother. And, as far as name recognition, that's about the same as giveaways on Amazon (which I don't do anymore). It's OK to look for bargains, but downloading an ebook from a pirate won't bring a reader any good karma.
r/Steve