Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Dare I say that parts of episode 3 actually started making sense to me? Listened to the audio version while I read along, stopping the audio from time to time to re-read and consult Shmoop. I doubt that without aid I would ever have read it often enough to winkle out much of the meaning, but with the outline laid out, I could from time to time see it actually making sense.

Still a long way to go, but I am beginning to think that this reading will be a pleasure and not a duty.

Has anyone come across a site that gives a map of the locations in Ulysses?

This is an interesting site that approaches Ulysses through images.
http://www.joyceimages.com/

Everyman wrote: "Has anyone come across a site that gives a map of the locations in Ulysses?"

Try this one:

http://ulysses.bc.edu/#

Lots of links have been shared, and I’m going to add another one that I found useful during my previous reads of Ulysses. It’s the Gilbert chart made by Joyce himself where he points out some symbols and technics used in every chapter as well as the locations and hours. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_...

Not much of a spoiler regarding chapter 3 but (view spoiler)[I often looked at the schema before reading the next chapter, and focused on one of the features. E.g. before reading Proteus (chapter 3) I checked that its colour is “green” and symbol “tide”. For me it made the reading process more interesting, almost like playing a detective in figuring out what exactly makes this chapter “green” and how is “tide” symbolised here. And the schema isn’t just Joyce fooling us around. Just see what art does the two first chapters represent – theology and history, respectively – and those appear, I think, very clearly in the chapters. (hide spoiler)]

Lily wrote: But I am increasingly leaning towards the pundits who suggest read less and re-read more.."

I did that for years. I'm now sick to the back teeth of it, hence my plunge into 'good' literature. The 1001 lists have rescued me from the literary desert I was dwelling in :-)

Nicola wrote: "I did that for years. I'm now sick to the back teeth of it, hence my plunge into 'good' literature. The 1001 lists have rescued me from the literary desert I was dwelling in :-) ..."

Fun to realize the different paths we all take. But now my re-read list does, at least by the criteria within my awareness, hold a fair amount of 'good' literature eligible for re-reading. So I am vulnerable to listening to those pundits. Yet, I know I won't be able to keep myself away from all those recommendations from Amazon nor Dirda nor Adler nor Pearl no Goodreads nor....

Thomas wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Has anyone come across a site that gives a map of the locations in Ulysses?"

Try this one:

http://ulysses.bc.edu/#"

Perfect. Thanks.

T.S. Eliot on Ulysses
http://people.virginia.edu/~jdk3t/eli...

one sentence for now: "I hold this book to be the most important expression which the present age has found; it is a book to which we are all indebted, and from which none of us can escape. "

So, don't try to escape it. Eliot says you can't, and surely Eliot knows!

Why did Joyce call the book Ulysses and not Odysseus? According to Prof Heffernan in the Teaching Company lectures on Ulysses, which I have just started and can so far say seems excellent, it's because to his later regret he studied Latin rather than Greek in university, and so knew Homer only second hand. According to Heffernan, his primary source of information about Odysseus was from Charles Lamb's The Adventures of Ulysses, which Lamb called a Supplement to The Adventures of Telemachus.

Both are available online if you want to know what Joyce primarily based Ulysses on.

Lamb's The Adventures of Ulysses
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/7768

Hawkesworth's translation of The Adventures of Telemachus
https://archive.org/details/adventure...

I know we all turn up our bloody noses at Cliff Notes. (At least so I have encountered. Besides they are linked with supposed "cheating.") But I spent time this afternoon with the paper copy for Ulysses for the first three chapters and found it quite useful. Sometimes it is really nice to have someone simplify and clarify for one. I don't know how the online copy compares or if all is available, but if you want to play with it:

http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature...

And, yes, I will eventually replay the excellent Great Courses DVDs from the Dartmouth professor with his great enthusiasm for the subject.

A note about the Discussion Schedule: I think it will help to have separate threads for each of the episodes because each episode in the book is distinct in tone, and sometimes in purpose as well. I have just posted my opening gambit, a scratch on the surface of the first episode. I will post the thread for episode 2 tomorrow, and episode 3 on the day following.

Everyman wrote: "Why did Joyce call the book Ulysses and not Odysseus? According to Prof Heffernan in the Teaching Company lectures on Ulysses, which I have just started and can so far say seems excellent, it's be..."

Heffernan is correct, in that Joyce as a child first read Lamb's version (which is a retelling for children rather than a translation), but the translation that he used as an adult writing Ulysses was Butcher & Lang's.

Patrice wrote: "This might be off the wall but do you think he may have used the Latin name as a way to remind us that the British forced the Irish to use English rather than their own language?"

Why question Prof Heffernan's explanation that Joyce encountered "Ulysses" via Latin sources rather than Greek, as romantically and historically appealing as your hypothesis is?

Lily wrote: "Why question Prof Heffernan's explanation that Joyce encountered "Ulysses" via Latin sources rather than Greek, as romantically and historically appealing as your hypothesis is? "

..."

Sorry to butt in here, but I have to ask: Why NOT question him? If he says that Joyce encountered Ulysses via Latin why does he reference Lamb? Wasn't Lamb writing English?

Incidentally, I like Heffernan's lectures a lot. I enjoy his enthusiasm, though his attempt at an Irish accent is atrocious. I have listened to learn from him rather than critique his analysis, but I have noticed a few inaccuracies.* I think questioning him is probably not a bad idea.

* ETA: "inaccuracies" are sometimes a matter of misunderstanding the professor. But the accent... I stand by that.

Which was the form commonly used in Joyce's environment? Ulysses or Odysseus?

Thomas wrote: Listen to the RTE performance! It's magnificent.

https://archive.org/details/Ulysses-A..."

I've always loved listening to plays while reading them, sometimes novels (with a good reader). I never imagined that a reading of Ulysses would not only be easy to follow but significantly improve my understanding. I also never realized how theatrical Ulysses is. I wonder if Joyce's style was significantly influenced by theater. I guess I'll muse on that in the discussions that follow, but right now I wanted to say thanks for this fantastic link.

Thomas wrote: "Sorry to butt in here, but I have to ask: Why NOT question him? "

Fingers duly slapped.

Lily wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Sorry to butt in here, but I have to ask: Why NOT question him? "

Fingers duly slapped."

No finger slapping intended. We need your fingers! Unless you can type with your toes, that is...

Thomas wrote: "...Unless you can type with your toes, that is... "

LOL!

Nicola wrote: "... Also the annotated version here: http://www.columbia.edu/~fms5/ulys.htm..."

Thx, this is excellent, albeit time consuming!

I'm amazed at how great this pre-conversation is, before the official reading even started! I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the suggestion of the audio resources (Internet Archive, specifically). I have issues with my eyes and it is hard to read text for long periods of time, so I appreciate the recommendation of a good audio version!

I ordered a copy of Ulysses at the beginning of the year, and it just arrived. (I didn't noticed that I ordered it from the UK, so it took quite a while to get to California.) I'll start up in a couple of days and try to catch up with the group.

Lauren wrote: "I ordered a copy of Ulysses at the beginning of the year, and it just arrived. (I didn't noticed that I ordered it from the UK, so it took quite a while to get to California.) I'll start up in a ..."

Good to hear. We're not really that far yet.

To be honest, part of me wonders how this will be sustained for another 700 pages...!

"O snail, climb Mount Fuji, but slowly, slowly!"--Kobayashi Issa

Remember that these threads stay open, so if you're a little behind, don't worry.

One of the great joys of Ulysses is re-reading and looking back at what has gone before. I will guarantee you that if you are reading it for the first time, going back to prior episodes with the knowledge of what follows will pay dividends. So we actually have much to gain from readers who are behind and are commenting on the older threads.

the more carrots you chop, the more turnips you slit, the more murphies you peel, the more onions you cry over, the more bullbeef you butch, the more mutton you crackerhack, the more potherbs you pound, the fiercer the fire and the longer your spoon and the harder you gruel with more grease to your elbow the merrier fumes your new Irish stew.
--Finnegans Wake

Love both quotes Adelle and Thomas.

I wonder if Issa's snail has met Camus's Sisyphus on the mountain? They'd make a good team.

Is it possible Thomas is quoting the only comprehensible sentence in all of Finnegans Wake?

Zeke wrote: "Love both quotes Adelle and Thomas.

I wonder if Issa's snail has met Camus's Sisyphus on the mountain? They'd make a good team.

Is it possible Thomas is quoting the only comprehensible sentence i..."

:-)

I've gotten behind here as well. I'm currently in NZ helping my parents move from the family home into a retirement village and my reading time isn't what I'd hope it would be. Any spare time I have is going to Infinite Jest atm. I was thinking of audio but Ulysses isn't the sort of book you can listen to while having part of your mind engaged elsewhere.

I should be able to begin catching up in a few days.

I end up reading each chapter several times. I know I should just accept that I'm not going to absorb everything the first time around but I can't help it. There are certain little things in each chapter that intrigue me and I have to (compulsively) go back and reread. My current thing I'm chewing on is this whole idea of Bloom and the "traveling" he does in his head, as opposed to Odysseus, who actually travels.

AND, I think Bloom keeps subtly referencing a book/s he has read about different countries. I'm not sure about this, but it's popped up a couple of times and, as an avid reader, I want to know what he's reading!!

Of course, I could be hallucinating and reading stuff into the text that just isn't there.

Paula wrote: "My current thing I'm chewing on is this whole idea of Bloom and the "traveling" he does in his head, as opposed to Odysseus, who actually travels."

That's nice. The physical traveler and the mental traveler.

I feel terrible, but I am really struggling with a complete lack of enthusiasm for this book. :-( I made it past episode three and am well into episode five. I guess I see everyone reading and rereading WHILE listening to the audio AND browsing all of these resource sights. If we have to do so much extra reading just to read the book, is it worth it??

I am going to finish it just because I cannot not finish a book. That would drive me more crazy than the book itself. Plus, I really do appreciate all of the insights this group has. Definitely glad to not be reading it alone.

Genni wrote: "I feel terrible, but I am really struggling with a complete lack of enthusiasm for this book. :-( I made it past episode three and am well into episode five. I guess I see everyone reading and rere..."

Don't torture yourself, Genni! It isn't necessary to read through all the resources and commentaries and things, so don't feel obligated. These things didn't exist when the book was first published and somehow people saw something in it.

It's enough work just to read the book. Post questions if you want. Vent your frustration. Or tell us what you like about it, even if it seems like a little thing.

One of the aspects of Ulysses that hasn't received much attention is its sense of humor. Perhaps this is because it seems like a little thing, or maybe it's because humor is so subjective, but it's one of the main reasons I love Joyce. Maybe it's just me, but I think Bloom is as hilarious as he is lovable.

"First the stiff. Then the friends of the stiff."

Thomas wrote: "One of the aspects of Ulysses that hasn't received much attention is its sense of humor. Perhaps this is because it seems like a little thing, or maybe it's because humor is so subjective, but it's one of the main reasons I love Joyce. Maybe it's just me, but I think Bloom is as hilarious as he is lovable."

Sometimes I feel when I'm reading that the humor is the only thing I am seeing. And then I come to the threads and read all the serious discussions and wonder at myself.

Genni wrote: "I guess I see everyone reading and rereading WHILE listening to the audio AND browsing all of these resource sights."

Genni, I'm not doing any of that. I've taken a quick peek at the online resources and listened to a couple of snippets of audio, but I honestly don't have time for all that. I'm just reading the best I can. And my last couple of posts have pretty much been "I've read this section and I found this funny" just to let everyone know that I'm still here. But I mostly feel that I don't have anything to add because I feel quite lost! I do greatly enjoy reading the discussions, though."

Genni wrote: "I feel terrible, but I am really struggling with a complete lack of enthusiasm for this book. :-( I made it past episode three and am well into episode five. I guess I see everyone reading and rere..."

I haven't started yet because I wanted to read A Portrait of the Artist... to gather some feelings and curiosity about Steven. Am not finished that one yet because I got behind on the Henriad series (and also took an interest in some other of shakespeare's plays). If I can get started within the next month I hope to be able to contribute a little to a few of the discussions. It is always interesting to read the discussions even if I haven't got time to follow through on linked resources.

Thanks for the encouragement, everyone. I continue on. :-)

Genni wrote: "I feel terrible, but I am really struggling with a complete lack of enthusiasm for this book. :-( I made it past episode three and am well into episode five. I guess I see everyone reading and rere..."

You are NOT ALONE!! I also am not enthralled but reading all the comments is SO helpful & does make me re-read and come away with a better appreciation. I also don't have time to check out the links or most of the other resources ( as much as I wish I could); although I did purchase the Heffernan lectures from The Teaching Company. Since I last posted that I had done that, I see that they are now offered on Netflix.

We will make it through together !

Chris wrote: "...We will make it through together ! ..."

I hope you're right Chris! Sometimes, like this morning, when I listen and I feel as if what I am hearing is a string of words and sounds, with little sense of story or characterization (other than perhaps Bloom or some cameo characters like Nosey) or building plot, I ask is this worth it for another two months? Thank goodness for the enthusiasm of those who have read Joyce's Ulysses in its entirety. (I'm glad Thomas pointed up the humor -- I, unfortunately, am of the temperament that can become impatient with seeming nonsense. But when I recognize it is deliberate and has a point....)

I know, the comment on lack of characterization probably isn't fair, but it seems so different from stories where plot and action provide character development. This is meandering and musing and drinking.

Am too lazy this morning to find the thread where I should say thank you to all who have given suggestions on how to keep track of characters and follow their development into individuals with certain relationships within the texts (stories?). In honesty, I'm not using all your suggestions, but I do seem to be evolving a few of my own spinoffs from them, so thanks, thanks.

Lily wrote: "I hope you're right Chris! Sometimes, like this morning, when I listen and I feel as if what I am hearing is a string of words and sounds, with little sense of story or characterization (other than perhaps Bloom or some cameo characters like Nosey) or building plot, I ask is this worth it for another two months? "

You're not alone, though I think I am finally getting some sense of what Joyce is about. While listening to the book last evening I found my own mind wandering in various byways, and came up with a start when I realized that I was actually being a Joycean novel. There are times, particularly when washing dishes with my wife, when I will come out with a comment that doesn't make any sense in the context, and she will ask me to explain how I got there, and I will track through the sequence of linked but not very related thoughts that brought me there. And now I realize that this is exactly what Joyce is about, and may well have been the first author to articulate in an extended way.

Everyman wrote: "...And now I realize that this is exactly what Joyce is about, and may well have been the first author to articulate in an extended way...."

The writing is brilliant and is a major contribution to human's articulation and observation of self. It is a milestone in literature. That still doesn't make it any more fun some hours!

The chapters we are currently reading are getting longer and longer so that I can't listen to / read them on one sitting. I lose my focus completely. A little break around the middle of the episode does wonders. And when we get to Circe, it's going to be more than just one break...

@Patrice: Just today I was thinking how much easier, in a way, I find Ulysses than Little Dorrit, which I'm reading at the moment too. It's much easier to relate to the realistic stream of consciousness here than to Dicken's ornamental sentences and debt prisons. Ulysses is somehow much closer to home (not to undermine Dickens, he's still fantastic and relevant today).

Lily wrote: "That still doesn't make it any more fun some hours!
"

I agree totally, fun it isn't. But absorbing and fascinating it is. (At some points, fascinating in the same sort of way that watching a spider suck the guts out of a fly is fascinating.)

I understand the points made about chaotic reality. In fact, after episode three, I found myself wondering what would happen if I went and wrote my thoughts down for an hour, just as they happened. What would my "episode three" look like? Lol Then I wondered if, in the very act of writing them down, they would somehow organize themselves in a way completely different fromthe way they "happened" in my mind. And do I slip back and forth between first and third POV's in my own life narration? So yes, I am finding some parts of it interesting. :-) And I find hope in Thomas's comment that people found it worthwhile when it was first published.

James Joyce was very particular about observing birthdays, so we should note that today is his. He wanted the first edition of Ulysses to be officially published on his birthday, so it's the anniversary of his book as well, published 93 years ago today in Paris.

Thomas wrote: "James Joyce was very particular about observing birthdays, so we should note that today is his."

Cool! Thanks Thomas.

Thomas wrote: "James Joyce was very particular about observing birthdays, so we should note that today is his. He wanted the first edition of Ulysses to be officially published on his birthday, so it's the annive..."

As mentioned on BBC Radio 3 earlier, when they played a recording of one of his songs. Didn't know he was a composer.