The Catholic Book Club discussion

3. Use this thread to share thoughts and impressions as you read the book, especially those that may not fit into other threads.

I have noticed one "mistake" in the first chapter of the novel. Jeromín's first "mother" (Ana de Medina) is called almost always "señora Massy", by the name of her husband. However, in Spain wives have never adopted their husband's family name, they have always conserved their maiden name. In fact, the only place she is named correctly (Ana de Medina) is in the document where she and her husband accepted taking charge of the baby. This document is historical, thus the name of the woman is correct.

Another mistake I have noticed: Luis de Quijada (Little Jerome's tutor) is incorrectly named Luiz, ending in a z. Probably De Wohl has been confused by the family name Ruiz, which is relatively common in Spain.

It's curious, anyway, that he has made this mistake, as Luis is also De Wohl's name. In fact, he used the French spelling to sign his books, Louis, as his original name in German was Ludwig (Lewis in English). In all cases in these three languages, this name ends in an s, never in a z.

Another coincidence: Father Luis Coloma, the author of "Jeromín," another novel about the same subject, was also called Luis :-)

Yes This is a mistake of the original book in the spanish edition the mistake is checked and Luis Quijada appears rightly there is another mistake in the novel Pious IV is mistaked with Paul IV.

Fonch wrote: "There is another mistake in the novel: Pius IV is mistaken with Paul IV."

I think you are wrong, Fonch. Wohl mentions correctly the death of Pius IV, as having happened in December 1565. He was succeeded by Pius V, also mentioned in the novel, as he was the Pope during Lepanto.

Paul IV is mentioned once in the novel, in chapter 18, and the mention is correct, as this is a flashbak in time, and Paul IV was the predecessor of Pius IV.

I have found another historical mistake in the book: in Part II chapter 15, don Gaspar de Quiroga, Archbishop of Toledo, appears in the Palace of the Prince and Princess of Eboli. This is supposed to happen in 1565, just after the siege of Malta. But Gaspar de Quiroga was named Archbishop of Toledo in 1577, after the death of his predecessor, Bartolomé de Carranza, about whom De Wohl correctly mentions (in chapter 9) that he was under arrest by the Inquisition. Perhaps he didn't know, or had forgotten, that Carranza's trial was very long (17 years) and ended just before Carranza's death.

This is interesting: I have found the same mistake in "Jeromín" (by Father Luis Coloma), about the same place. This makes me think that perhaps De Wohl used Coloma's book as a source for his own novel. It's not the first time I've thought this, but a common mistake is a good inkling.

Manuel wrote: "This is interesting: I have found the same mistake in "Jeromín" (by Father Luis Coloma), about the same place. This makes me think that perhaps De Wohl used Coloma's book as a source for his own novel. It's not the first time I've thought this, but a common mistake is a good inkling."

The alternative would be that both men used a common source that contained the mistake. The idea that both men made an identical error of that type is pretty far-fetched.

I've just ended the second part. Don Juan's love story with doña María de Mendoza has been expanded and made the most by De Wohl, as was to be expected in a novel, as compared with a biography. "Jeromín", however, by Father Coloma, although also a novel, deals with the story in a much more succint way: this is the beginning (my translation into English):

The figure of Doña María de Mendoza appears for a moment in the history of Don Juan de Austria, faded and blurred as the melancholic image of a memory, leaving behind the sad train of the mourned and forgiven guilt, and the painful sequel that human weaknesses always carry with them.

And this is the end, after doña Magdalena de Ulloa takes the little girl under her care:

As for Doña María de Mendoza, she disappeared into the mist, crying like Andrómaca, and never saw Don Juan de Austria again. She spent a long season in Pastrana at the princess of Éboli's house, and with the pretext of her delicate health, was withdrawn little by little from the court without attracting anyone's attention, finally managing to erase her memory, to the point that today nobody knows to which of the illustrious branches of the Mendoza house she belonged, nor what was her whereabouts after the sad episode that cut her life. It is probable that she went to cry in some monastery what was, certainly, her first disappointment, and perhaps also her only fault.

So her further appearance almost at the end of "The Last Crusader," when Don Juan is about to start the journey that ended in Lepanto, has been invented by De Wohl to provide his novel with a kind of happy ending.

I found the mistake in the spanish edition perhaps was a mistake of the translator. Yes i commited the mistake of Quiroga i realized. I also thought that Coloma might inspire to de Wohl's novel. But he had a daughter with María
Mendoza. She was called Joan.

I'm now reading the third part, in the chapters telling about don Juan retreat to the monastery of Abrojo.

Fray Juan de Calahorra really existed, but his encounter with Don Juan in the monastery is mostly invented by De Wohl. In chapter 27, it appears that Don Juan had never met Calahorra before. However, in Father Coloma's book, it says that they had met while Don Juan (Jeromín) was a child, and Calahorra had been Jeromin's confessor. Of all the conversations between both men that De Wohl tells, the only thing Father Coloma mentions is the last phrase by Calahorra, at the end of chapter 29: You will conquer and your conquest will make your name known all over Europe.

I thought that you had read the book complete. I wanted to apologize to Manuel Alfonseca for some spoilers that i did It without intention. I Will be very interested for the impressions of my friend about the War of Alpujarras. The Professor Alfonseca Read a book about This topic. I Will like to know his impressions about some character that Will appear later, whom i spoke to my friend in the Goodreads's message. I Will start to reread This book The Next week i want to know that if i commited a mistake or not.

Does the book get more engaging as it goes on? I'm having a hard time getting through the first couple of chapters....characters and their interactions just have a deeply unnatural feel to me. The scene where they boy is taken from Senora Massey just had the feel of a poorly acted soap opera, where the author knew what emotions the character should be experiencing but could only portray is clumsily.

I'm finding it pretty engaging, but my lack of historical knowledge is a problem, as characters suddenly appear (e.g. Ruy Gomez) without explanation and others can be hard for me to keep track of.
I didn't know about Protestant destruction of Church properties in the Low Countries, which are presented in our histories as very tolerant.
Any evidence for Prince Carlos' miraculous recovery? Is the holy priest "Diego" or Peter of Alcatar?
Were Church offices at this time still so subject to political intrigue that the Pope would even consider making a lay teenager a Cardinal?
I thought deWohl made surprisingly little of the romance with Maria, and it left me with many questions. What was Princess Ana trying to accomplish in introducing the two? Why did she deliberately leave them alone without supervision? Why was her daughter taken from Maria--or why did she give her up? It's not like she's going to have a place in court, so why not leave her with her mother? Sounds like Maria didn't go on to have any happy life of her own anyway, so giving away the child didn't protect her.

My big question for Don Juan and his whole era (and ours?): How can one love as Christ commands and glorify fighting and killing?

Jill wrote: "Any evidence for Prince Carlos' miraculous recovery? Is the holy priest "Diego" or Peter of Alcatar?"


The saint by whose intercession Prince Carlos is healed is St. Diego of Alcalá. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didacus...

The miraculous recovery of Prince Carlos was one of the miracles approved by the Church and used as basis for the canonization of St. Diego. King Phillip and Prince Carlos sent a petition to the Pope for the canonization. There is more about this story here:
https://sandiegohistory.org/journal/1...

Jill wrote: "Were Church offices at this time still so subject to political intrigue that the Pope would even consider making a lay teenager a Cardinal?"

Yes, that was very common.

Jill wrote: "What was Princess Ana trying to accomplish in introducing the two? Why did she deliberately leave them alone without supervision?"

As I understood it, she wanted Juan to have an illegitimate child, unknown by anybody else, so that she and her husband have control over Juan's career and can manipulate him by threatening to disclose to the King the existence of the child.

If the child is taken away from them, and Maria promises not to disclose it (or even deny it) then they lose this control.

Jill wrote: "My big question for Don Juan and his whole era (and ours?): How can one love as Christ commands and glorify fighting and killing?"

In this particular case, the Turks were the attackers, first Malta, then Cyprus, and their aim was to conquer Christians lands all the way to Spain, to kill Christians and establish Islam in them. The Christians nations joined together in defense, and defending your nation when it is being attacked is allowed:

CCC 2308: All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war. However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."

CCC 2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense. Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.

Fonch wrote: "I Will be very interested for the impressions of my friend about the War of Alpujarras. Professor Alfonseca read a book about this topic."

Yes, I read Historia de la guerra de Granada by Diego Hurtado de Mendoza, who told what he had seen (he participated in the war, and is one of the characters mentioned in "The last crusader"). Hurtado mentions the reasons of both parties for the upheaval, trying to be impartial.

Of course, De Wohl has sweetened this part of the story, highlighting the role of Don Juan, as was to be expected in a biographical novel, although he mentions the lack of discipline in the Spanish army and the lack of collaboration of the high officers of the army with Don Juan.

Hello i am going to reply Jill, If you need some explanations about the history you can ask me. I Will be enchanted to answer to you, although i think that Mari Ángeles reply you perfectly even me i had not been able to reply much better. The Wars are not pleasure but the christianity had a reason to fight avoid that turkish spread for Europe. I want to remind that in 1529 Vienna was under Siege and they were very close to fall. They were saved by the emperor Charles V. I want to remember of his beggining the Islam spread by the violence It is a sacred commandmend of Islam the yihad. For finding a violent spread of the christianity se must wait to Charlemagne to the 9th century and his war against the saxon. Only Spain and orient Europe save the Bond of Islam with Solimán the Islam spread the most speead He conquered Rodas, Belgrade, and Hungary. The Battle of Mohacs was bloody. Civilization as Persia, Nubia, and Byzantium disappear for the Islam and the christianity was very close to disappear of these zones and the trade of slaves increaded. Although some people defend the opposite idea between the died writer Goytisolo the Islam invaded Spain in 711 and they destroyed the visigoth realm and the year of 711 was not the First try to invade Spain. They tried in two ocassions previously One of them with the King Wamba. The invassion was told by the spanish novel The Syrian Pope by Jesús Sánchez Adalid a writer very beloved by my friend Jorge Sáez Criado. Selim II the sultán of Battle of Lepanto tried to conquer Russia and he was beaten in the Battle of Astrakan. The Islam was a menace for everybody.
The second question yes the calvinist destroyed the statues of the Cathedral of Netherlands and they pursued to the catholics in some ocassions It is not Spain Who invades Netherland It is Netherlands Who invaded Flanders a Spanish territory that we Lost in the spanish sucession war in 1714. In a lot of ocassions the spanish kings in his Peace treatments must protect to the Catholic population of Netherlands especially Philip II, Philip III and Philip IV. In Flanders was governoss Elisabeth Claire Eugenie the daughter of Philip II and unenough reward for a talentful Woman. And the calvinist they only fought against catholics they are in war against protestants and they had his own civil Wars. Hugh Grotius had to escape of the radical faction of Calvinist they divided in followers of Arminius the moderated and the Gomar followers the radicals in This war died the De Witt brothers. The Netherlands had an important trade of slaves in Batavia besides they cheer up to Tokugawa Ieyasu to pursuit the christians in Japan. There was a german businessman Hartman Who dedicated to save catholics in Netherlands.

I am sorry i had to go out to eat and i could not reply totally the rest of the questions María Elvira Roca Barea in a book that my friend Manuel Alfonseca and me have Read said that the War of the eighty years between Netherlands and Spain we must understand as a civil war between the own duchts people. The spanish army had a lot of Belgians, Dutchs people in his army even there was Catholic English soldiers Who fought in the spanish army One of them the famous Guy Fawkes we must remember the book of Antonia Fraser Gunpowder plot. In the 18th there was in Netherlands a persecution against homosexuals and the calvinists accused that the catholicism promoted the homosexuality with This i want to show how they were the calvinist dutchs.
About the question of the Princess of Éboli about this question i recomend although It was heavy and boring to Read my reply to John in the topic of feudalismo to understand the politic of Spain and the complicate and fascinating personality of Philip II.
About Mary the story is very simple in Spain there were two factions lead by Duke of Alba and the Prince of Éboli. The second less agressive in Internacional politician. The plan of the Princess of Éboli Ana is to employ her niece to atract John Austria to the faction of Éboli even employing the daughter to blackmail It. The curious is that John Austria was Closer to the Éboli than Alba. Therefore the destruction of John Austria It was a reckoning or a revenge in the field of Éboli. I do not know that you know but Ana was Who reported to Saint Therese of Jesus to the spanish inquisition. This thing i say that you look as she was the lady. Unfortunatelly you can not Read It but my admired Juan Manuel de Prada had This plot in his novel The Castle of Diamond. He imitated brilliantly the spanish language of the sixteen century. One of the best thing of the novel of my beloved Juan Manuel de Prada was the unforgotable description
ofb Anthony Pérez the betrayer as a perfumed weasel.
About my friend Alfonseca he understood perfectly i wanted that he spoke of the book that he Read about moorish war of Alpujarras. This was the third uprising against Spain of the moorishs. Firstly we did with the Catholic kings Ferdinand and Isabella, afterwards with Charles V and This is the third attempt and the most bloody. It is thought that the turkish went to assist
the moorishs however the turkish did not help that moorish they preffer to conquer Cyprus followed the advice of Yussuf Nassi the Big Jew This character existed really there was a novel of the spanish writer Jesús Sánchez Adalid "The kinght of Alcántara" about This character. The character of Grazia is my favorite character. This character was one of the reason because This novel is One of my favorite novel. In the novel of Adalid This character married with the main character and she converted to the Catholic religion she is the good genius of Yussuf Nassi.

I was confused by my hasty reading. I assumed the pious superior Jerome met as a child, who had just returned from walking barefoot to Rome, was the same person whose dead body led to the miracle for Prince Carlos.

Robert wrote: "Does the book get more engaging as it goes on? I'm having a hard time getting through the first couple of chapters....characters and their interactions just have a deeply unnatural feel to me. The ..."

I actually found it quite engaging right from the start.

Me too John with all the thing improves with the pass of the pages.

De Wohl says this in chapter 7 about "Juana la Loca," mother of Charles V: living for almost half a century as a mad woman, dishevelled, unwashed, full of insane hatred against all things holy.

I think he is excessively hard with her. Yes, true, she behave like a mad woman at the time of her husband's death, moving all around Castile with the corpse of her husband and not allowing it to be interred. This was used to declare her incapable of being the queen of Castile, so that first her father was named regent in her name, then her son Charles V was made king of Castile and Aragon (Spain).

But Juana was not, during half a century, a dishevelled mad woman. At the time of the revolt of the Comuneros against his son, Charles V, they tried to get Juana's support, and she received them and gave them very good words, but refused to sign anything that could be used against her son. Not the way a "dishevelled mad woman" would behave, in my opinion.

In chapter 39, De Wohl makes a curious mistake. Speaking about the battle of Actium, where Octavius Augustus defeated Anthony and Cleopatra, he says: When was it? Eleven years before Christ? Fourteen before Christ? Much more than fifteen centuries, almost sixteen centuries ago in any case

In fact, that battle took place in 31BC, which means that 1602 years had passed by 1571, i.e. over sixteen centuries.

I do not believe that Louis de Wohl committed a mistake in This question i Read a biography of Saint Francis Borgia was written by Cecil Saint Varens about the Saint and she told the same as Louis de Wohl. The Queen rejected the holy issues and he was Saint Francis Borja Who reconciled with God. It is thought that Don Carlos can inherited the Madness of her grandgranddaughter. The relationship between Philipp II and his grandson was not Bad he introduced his First wife Mary Emanuelle/María Manuela to the Queen Juana. Really Charles V only was a King of Spain for Little time he reigned in the name of his mother and she lived a Long time.

Mariangel wrote: "The saint by whose intercession Prince Carlos is healed is St. Diego of Alcalá. ..."

By the way, one of these Sundays I watched mass from the cathedral of Alcalá de Henares, and St. Diego of Alcalá was invoked in the Eucharistic Prayer.

I am in This part of the book :-) the part when Jerómin meets with Saint Peter Alcántara. In the conversation between Jerómin and the Prior when he asked about his name Jerome he said that he translated the Bible to Latin and he was very hard on Saint Augustine then the prior says that he hopes that he did not imitate in This. It is truth that Louis de Wohl wrote This dialogue because he wrote a novel of Saint Augustine. It is not one of his best novel "Heart restless" because he only wrote about the converssion of Saint Augustine and the end for This is much better to Read the Confessions by Saint Augustine. I expected that he spoke about his labor as bishop for This reason It was not one of my favorite Louis de Wohl's novel.

Hello i found a mistake in the text De Wohl spoke about Joan of Hungary but i did not look that This character existed the sisters of Charles V are Leonor married with Manuel I and Francis I of France, Mary of Hungary married with Louis II of Hungary afterwards the defeat in Mohacs she was a governess of Netherlands, Elisabeth married with Christian II known by his enemies as the tyrant or the Nero of the north he Lost the kingdom and Sweden was independent and Catherine Who married with the King John III of Portugal.
I have been reading The secene when Juan of Austria is with his Father and i reminded of my friend Alfonseca when Louis de Wohl described the Cats of the emperor Charles V. He is a lover of the Cats :-).

This a topic that i have spoken during the discussion of This book i wrote about the Battle of Sziget, where the Sultan Soliman found the death. This subplot is owe to the hungarian origin of Louis de Wohl. He was born in Berlín but he was the son of mix marriage hungarian Father and austrian mother. This is a tribute to the land of his Father. In Hungary there are a lot of Big writers Geza Gardonyi, Ferenc Herczeg, Foldi, Lajos Zilahy, Sandor Marai, Laszlo Passuth, Michel Ferdinandy, Sterhasse, and Kertész. Nowodays the most Interesting countries of Europe are Hungary and Poland. Indeed with Japan Poland is my favorite country.

I did not know where i would post This comment and i Hope that i am not sining of pride but This is One of the discussions which more likes me. I have enjoyed really much in This discussion. I regret participating a lot but as i was a historian i thought that It is really important to give my point of view and to share with you. I am very Happy that the people have enjoyed with This book.