The Catholic Book Club discussion

4. How familiar were you with Don Juan and the Battle of Lepanto before reading this book? Did this add to your knowledge? How faithful do you think the book is to the historical facts?

A couple years ago I read Empires of the Sea: The Final Battle for the Mediterranean, 1521-1580, by Roger Crowley which roughly covers the same period. Nonfiction, It does a much better job of covering both the Battle for Malta and Lepanto. The enormity of the Battle of Lepanto really came through. As much as I enjoyed The Last Crusader: A Novel about Don Juan of Austria, I found de Wohl's description of Lepanto itself to be somewhat flat.

I studied all about Don Juan de Austria and the battle of Lepanto in school, but then I am a Spaniard, and when I was a boy, we still studied history in school.

I'll answer the second part of the question when I've finished reading this book.

Besides studying Lepanto at school, I have read Cervantes’ short description and references.

I have read a detailed description of the ships positions and maneuvers in Salgari’s novel “The lion of Damascus” Il leone di Damasco

Of course, "Jeromín" by Father Luis Coloma describes the battle of Lepanto in just a chapter (about 6-7 pages).

"Il leone di Damasco" by Salgari also dedicates one chapter to the battle, but it's longer (about 16 pages).

In comparison, "The Last Crusader" dedicates two chapters to the battle; about 30 pages.

No comparison with Victor Hugo's description of the battle of Waterloo in Les Misérables :-)

My high school was named Our Lady of Victory, and the victory referred to was the Battle of Lepanto, so naturally we learned the history of it. But that was decades ago. Looking forward to revisiting.

The long-running BBC Radio program "In Our Time" has an episode on the Battle of Lepanto.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06n...

It is also available in podcast format.

The discussion is pretty comprehensive giving a historical background from politics to commerce to maritime warfare to religion, and I think they do a good job showing these complexities. Though I wish they had given more detail on the religious tensions.

I think that De Wohl did not do a Bad description of the Battle of Lepanto. It is true that he can not compare with Víctor Hugo but the Battle is really well described.
Certainly i want to speak about the other subplot of the novel i wanted to speak in other section but It is better to do It. About the action of the Viceroy García in the Siege, where the pirate Dragut found the death. There are several novels Who commited the mistake the blame García with his intervention in the Last second he was very close to let that Malta was conquered by the turkish. Even a Catholic novel as "Angels in iron" by Nicholas C. Prata commited the mistake. This thing was not seen in the Louis de Wohl's novel even It is looked that the character has a positive reception because John Austria spoke with him. In This De Wohl was right the historian Ferdinand Braudale of the Annale School would give the reason. He would write a book The mediterranean in the age of Philip II only for justifiying the Viceroy García for proving that It was a right decision. I liked really much The secene where the King Philip II and Ruy Gómez and the Duke of Alba denating the plans of the campaign. If somebody want to know more of the turkish court of Solimán i recomend the Mika Waltari's novel The Renegade. This novella offer a good image of Turkey and Solimán tamed by Jurrem or Roxelana. It is very Interesting that De Wohl told the Soliman's death in Sziget. Because we do not know a lot history of the european orient countries. I Will speak later of Lepanto. It can be very controversial my opinion about This issue.

I am going to add It a bit of controversy about This topic when i did the degree of History and i studied modern history my professor Rosa María González said to us that Lepanto and the defeated of the happiest army or the Spanish Invincible Armada were not definitive battles. The idea that we have is that the Navy battles is that Lepanto and the English victory changed the history of the world and i do not agree. Lepanto is not the decline of the Turkish or Ottoman Empire and Spain was the largest military power until Rocroi even after of Rocroi Spain was capable to defeat the french troops. In the case of Lepanto although It is a good victory It is not profitable for Spain and This victory did not help to spread for the north of Africa. The Catholic Kings and Cardinal Cisneros whised that Spain spread his territory to the north of Africa but although Spain conquered Orán, Trípoli, Bujía and with Charles V conquered Túnez certainly after of Lepanto Spain did not keep his possesions in Africa excepto Ceuta, Melilla, and Orán (the Last we Lost in the 18th century with Charles III) and some presidiums. The turkish Armada defeated Spain in the Battle of Querquenas and they continue loting Italy.
Although This did not appear in the novel It would be good to speak about the Invincible Armada certainly i did not know that if the persons Who are reading the books know It but It is thought that Don John married with Mary Stuart Chesterton Who wrote the poem Lepanto wrote and essay explaining what would It have happened if John Austria had married with Mary Stuart? Some authors spoke about the possibility that Spain had conquered England. In my case i continue being sceptical but a question emerge in my mind Why William III having less capacity won where Philipp II failed? The spanish writer Emilio Lara thinks that Spain could obtained the victory with the happiest Armada. There are two fictional novels Who speaks about the possibility that Spain won with the Invincible Armada Pavana by Keith Roberts where explained what kind of history we would have had if Spain had triumphed with Invincible Armada. At the beggining this society is negative but Roberts thought that This alternate society with the Inquisition despite killing and burning is less Bad than our history and Buchenwald would have been impossible. The other novel is Britannia Rules by Harry Turtledove where England has to rise against Spain and the leader of the Resistance is Polonius or pardon i want to say Robert Cecil and they employed Shakespeare to write a play reporting the spanish domain or occupation of England. It is an irony that they beg a Catholic writer to write a play against the spanish domain although One person can be English and the same time a good Catholic and not all catholics are in favor of Spain although Spain had his supporters as William Allen and Persons.
The reality is that there was not as difference between the spanish ships and the English ships is certain that English caused a lot of damage but the Next year of the defeat of the Invincible Armada England tried the Counter-Armada with Norreys and the disaster is total. The idea of England is to conquer the north of Spain and to replenish on the throne to the portuguese throne to the bastard Anthony Prior Cratus. The result of counter armada was a definitive defeat in Galicia dying Drake and more people than in the Invincible Armada. The true is the War between Spain and England spanned until the death of the Queen Elizabeth (1603) and This mixed with the irish rebellion and the truth was that This years were bad for England and the poverty, repression and violent. The Queen let that the sailors and soldiers of the Counter Armada died as underdogs and they borne illnesses and all for the traditional dull of the Queen even Cecil regret the deaths of so many good men. Really was a Long conflict and England despite the propaganda Triumph English bear the worst burnt the English and the spanish people exaggerated the results of the Invincible Armada for England was crucial to keep the protestantism and Spain was very critic with This defeat but the reality is that in Greenwich Spain was the strenght favoured. The majority of the information i have obtained by Empirephobia and Black Legend by María Elvira Roca Barea where you can obtain more information with Philipp IV the Count Duke Olivares did not fear the English and they defeated easily the English Armada in Cadiz. The truth that the real enemy of Spain was France and overall Spain was very superior to England until 17th and 18th century England is mediocre in earth. However i totally agree with Belloc in one thing the key was England if the Catholic religion had triumphed in England there would not be protestants or they would be something similar to the husites with a small presence. The protestantism saved for England.

I knew nothing about the battle before except its name and that it's the historical basis for the October 7 Our Lady of the Rosary celebration. So I was surprised no one in the novel said the rosary, though the sailors did confess and receive communion before the battle. I wondered whether there's historical basis for Pope Pius V being directly inspired to name Don Juan commander of the fleet.

I dislike descriptions of bloody battles but was impressed with the humility Don Juan expressed afterward, although he was certainly mistaken about that being the death knell of Islam!

Of course the War are nasty and unpleasent there are ocassions, in which you are forced to defend him. The turkish loot the coast of Italy, France and Spain and they got a lot of slaves. Rome was in danger since the 15th century of being attacked by the turkish and despite the tolerance the situation of the christians in the turkish territory was not totally good. They depended of the goodness and merciful of the Sultan.
The facts Jill are as Louis de Wohl after of this Battle in the litany was added Christian Helper. The election of John of Austria was as De Wohl told afterwards Pious V Read the beggining of the Gospel of Saint John. John of Austria got a lot of prestige after finishing the moorish rebellion of Alpujarras. After the Battle the Pope rewarded with the golden Rose i did not say previously and he was offered to be King of Albania but the King Philipp II did not want. About Philipp II personality i wrote about This in the section of feudalism.

Jill wrote: "I wondered whether there's historical basis for Pope Pius V being directly inspired to name Don Juan commander of the fleet."

Yes, this is historical, as Fonch mentioned. St. Pius V proposed Don Juan as the admiral of the joint fleet using the words from the beginning of St. John's Gospel (1,6): There was a man sent from God whose name was John.

Also, St. Pius V knowing before hand about the victory at Lepanto is historical, and this miracle was used in his canonization.

I found the description of the battle excellent. De Wohl gives Don Juan's point of view, and provides information about the battle just as he was receiving it. Of course, in that way you don't get a global view of all the battle, but in fact nobody of those who fought there got that view; to get it, they would have to fly and look from high above, or from a nearby promontory, and even so the fog and the powder smoke would impede sight. Which means that probably nobody ever had such a view of the battle.

The situation is different in a land battle, such as Waterloo, for instance, where Napoleon, located in a high place and not participating in the battle, could have had a global view of what was happening.

I totally agree with Manuel Alfonseca i think that Louis de Wohl did a hard work. The description of the Battle is not Bad. We can not compare with Víctor Hugo or Ryo Wada but i liked the map and the different movement of the Battle following Juan's Austria perspective as he said my friend Alfonseca. I like very much The cameo of Miguel de Cervantes the future author of Don Quixote (Mitchell Spain for me, Saberhagen and my friend Alfonseca).

About Ryo Wada i Read his novel was translated to spanish "The daughter of pirates of Murakami" in two volume and the description of the Battlefield between the soldiers of Oda Nobunaga and the buddhists monks i have never seen in other book besides employing historical fountains of comtemporary authors of the 16th century perhaps with Víctor Hugo in "The Miserables" describing the Battle of Waterloo, when i Read the description of the Battle in The Chatruese of Parma It looked a poor caricature. I also can considérate the scenes of War and Peace by Tolstói and we have authors as J.R.R. Tolkien and Stephen R. Lawhead Who described good scenes of battles but It would be totally unfair consider Bad the description of Lepanto made by Louis de Wohl he with his talent did a hard work.

John wrote: "4. Did this add to your knowledge?"

Not much, as I had read JEROMIN before, which is even nearer to historical facts.

John wrote: "How faithful do you think the book is to the historical facts?"

Quite faithful, although the author invents a few things, and tells us what the characters were thinking, something that a real historian would never do.

I reply to my friend Alfonseca the original idea of Louis de Wohl is to dedicate to write novels about Saints. Palabra which published the complete novels of Louis de Wohl defined as biographies novelized. The objective of Louis de Wohl a part of obeying the beg of his friend the Pope Pious XII It was to offer to the youth positive models against the nazism. However Louis de Wohl wrote a historical book "Hang on the rock" a history of the Catholic Church that in my opinion would be very useful to the children catechesis in This book we demand to Louis de Wohl more rigour in historical questions but he is a novelist. In my opinion the Last Crusader must be a First step to familiarise ourselves with his novels. Louis de Wohl had and ambition during his Life to novelize the Life of the Saints of the Catholic Church for This reason he is a unique and basic to the Catholic Church in my opinion he is better than the polish writer Jan Dobraczinski friend of the Cardinal Wyzinski and knowing by his gospel of Nicodemus. Indeed This novel The Last crusader can compare with his novel dedicate to Jan Sobieski under the Vienna Wall being much better The Last Crusader. In my opinion Louis de Wohl must be compared with people as Dobraczinski, Passuth, Frank G. Slaughter even the Big Mika Waltari but not with The Father Coloma although they write about the same topic in This case the Life of Juan of Austria. In my opinion This novel is strange because is not about a Saint although in This novel appears Saint Peter Alcántara, Saint Therese of Jesús, Friar Diego and Juan of Calahorra (we must not confuse with Juan de la Cruz). In my opionion Louis de Wohl wants to dedicate a novel to Spain and to please that Spain did for the catholic faith in the world and for This reason he chose Don Juan if we compare This novel with the novel dedicated to Saint Francis Xavier Spain receives a better opinion than Portugal and we can not say the same of other writers including Catholic writers that they continue believing in the black Legend. The antifas now are throwing the statues of Christopher Colombus and Junípero Serra. Few countries have questioned his deeds as Spain even in Spain promoted by the left wing (PSOE and Podemos) and the independist of Catalonia, Basque regions and Galicia. For This reason is so important that we rate positively writers as Louis de Wohl because i have understood what is the mission of Spain only writing about the history of the Catholic Church few persons can say the same.

I wanted to say that in Spain there are a negative view of Spain especially the Discovery of America for the people nowadays the actions of Spain is an authentic genocide and It is only Interest money, power and new territories It is possible that This things happens with another europeans coutries but at least in my opinion we did not do This only for gold and power and if the people believe It is because the proohecy of Marcelino Menéndez Pelayo the nightmare is doing reality. The reason to exist of Spain is the Catholic faith if Spain give Up being Catholic the country disappear, however This horrible prophecy happened other country would do the same of Spain because God is destinated to win despite the actions of Devil.

John wrote: "4. How familiar were you with Don Juan and the Battle of Lepanto before reading this book? Did this add to your knowledge? How faithful do you think the book is to the historical facts?"

My knowledge was introductory and piecemeal. I found this book helpful. I thought it reasonably faithful to the outline of history as i knew it, but I lacked the ability to critique its details.

Fonch wrote: "I wanted to say that in Spain there are a negative view of Spain especially the Discovery of America for the people nowadays the actions of Spain is an authentic genocide and It is only Interest mo..."

Which is, of course, nonsense. It doesn't matter what a country's history has actually been, our post-modern Visigoths are intent on destroying all aspects of European history, culture and civilization. They won't like what comes next.

I spoke about the spanish case. I explained that the left wing socialists and Podemos the comunist party of Spain are critics with the pass of my country. For them the history only started with the beggining of socialism and for This reason they try to attack the spanish history and of course the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church can not do anything because if they Clash against the goverment they can demand that the Catholic Church pays the tax and they can catch all churches. We luce very Bad times and i think that we are at the beggining of a world decline. Marcelino Menéndez Pelayo said that if Spain gave Up being Catholic we would disappear. However This tide of historical revisionism promoted by the liberalism is global. I have the impression that in United States has the same problem. In Spain we are worried for the throwing if statues of Friar Junípero Serra, Christopher Colombus and Oñate. But even the right press i think in ABC as they hate the current president of United States they do not want to admit that they are behind of these facts are the enemies of the POTUS. And they only write about the Bad things of president. The social media of Spain do not speak about the Antifas as terrorists for them they are an antiracist group. And for This reason now we cry. For This reason It is important books as This of Louis de Wohl to the people know the history of my country. And the reasons of his greatness and the decline. I think that as Willy Durant says our civilizations are dying themselves. This movements are product of the decline of western civilization. I say thanks to Jt. For praising the book.